Is Demarcus Cousins a top 10 Player?

[2klegend]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

Given the health and quality of his rosters, the coaching carousel he's experienced and everything else going on, is this really the direction you want to take a criticism of the player? Tough to say, I'd think, too many contextual factors. Some really, really good players couldn't make the playoffs or even reach .500 in certain seasons.

How long have he been in the league now? This is his 7th season and look to be another out of playoff again. It is no coincident that he hasn't sniff the playoff. He is an selfish player who has maturity issue. When your best player throws a tantrum, it is hard for other players to take it serious and put in the effort to compete. They have enough talents to be a playoff team. The issue is the players aren't playing up to their full potential because Cousins is monopolizing the team. It's best if both sides split at this point. It's a fail experiment.

[Winsome Gerbil]

the next thread should be a test how many times in NBA history a 27.5pt 10reb big carrying a 27.6 PER was NOT a Top 10 player

[Winsome Gerbil]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

Given the health and quality of his rosters, the coaching carousel he's experienced and everything else going on, is this really the direction you want to take a criticism of the player? Tough to say, I'd think, too many contextual factors. Some really, really good players couldn't make the playoffs or even reach .500 in certain seasons.

How long have he been in the league now? This is his 7th season and look to be another out of playoff again. It is no coincident that he hasn't sniff the playoff. He is an selfish player who has maturity issue. When your best player throws a tantrum, it is hard for other players to take it serious and put in the effort to compete. They have enough talents to be a playoff team. The issue is the players aren't playing up to their full potential because Cousins is monopolizing the team. It's best if both sides split at this point. It's a fail experiment.

an amusing take completely oblivious to the teams and situations that that franchise has been through.

[tsherkin]

How long have he been in the league now? This is his 7th season and look to be another out of playoff again. It is no coincident that he hasn't sniff the playoff.

Given the consistency of Sacramento's boobery, I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion, to be honest. I think that if you took some time to familiarize yourself with the actual results and particulars of the team, you might think a little differently.

[Texas Chuck]

How long have he been in the league now? This is his 7th season and look to be another out of playoff again. It is no coincident that he hasn't sniff the playoff.

Given the consistency of Sacramento's boobery, I'm not sure how you could come to this conclusion, to be honest. I think that if you took some time to familiarize yourself with the actual results and particulars of the team, you might think a little differently.

I think its impossible to exclude Boogie from the problems tho. It's impossible for me to reach a conclusion that he isn't a large part of the problem. If your best player is able to rally the troops you can get a KG in Minnesota scenario where the team is able to overcome some of the clear organizational incompetence. Instead Boogie sulks and pouts and sets a culture where other guys feel okay to speak openly about wanting out.


And for as gaudy as his box score stats can be, he continues to have enough flaws in his game that no way he is one of the ten best players in the Association. Ten most talented? Oh yeah. But his play doesn't match his talent.

[tsherkin]

I think its impossible to exclude Boogie from the problems tho. It's impossible for me to reach a conclusion that he isn't a large part of the problem. If your best player is able to rally the troops you can get a KG in Minnesota scenario where the team is able to overcome some of the clear organizational incompetence. Instead Boogie sulks and pouts and sets a culture where other guys feel okay to speak openly about wanting out.

I think this is perhaps somewhat overrated. You can be the best leader ever but if your boys are crap and/or injured while being run by fool coaches, you can do only so much.

Meantime for Cousins' sake, we HAVE seen him driving competent team offense. He's on his sixth coach since he was drafted, his owner is a meddling nitwit and his teams have been really, really weak. That, and he's playing in the West, which hasn't been a cakewalk conference. Garnett in Minny had more talent around him (as odd as that is to say), had better coaching and was himself a better overall player to boot, leastwise after his first couple of years, since he started so young.

Culture matters, sure, but it doesn't overcome all. Cousins isn't a superstar, sure, he's not a tier-one player, but his attitude isn't what stops that Kings team from playing defense, for example.

[Texas Chuck]

Of course it is. If your best player isn't a guy you believe is fully bought in to the team, its much less likely you want to bust your tail defending especially when he takes so many defensive possessions off. Like what happened in Houston last year when Harden checked out on his teammates off the court and stopped trying defensively on the court. That had everything to do with their drop-off last year. Why would Ariza etc want to bust their tails to defend and cover for Harden when he essentially wasn't talking to them and he was dominating the ball offensively?

These things absolutely matter and sorry your organization sucks and you are frustrated. I feel sympathy for you Boogie, but I don't excuse your attitude or effort when its all too frequently subpar. And his game still has legit holes in it that have nothing to do with who the head coach or owner or GM is.

[Winsome Gerbil]

There continues to be this nonsense about Cousins somehow singlehandedly being the cause of the woes of that franchise, from idiotic drafting to terrible trades to cheap owners trying to steal the franchise, bargain basement coaching, and sad longterm contracts handed out to scrubs because nobody else will play for them. Cousins must be a busy guy to singlehandedly run a once proud franchise into the ground.

So with the wonders of bballreference, allow me to introduce you to all the awesomeness that has surrounded Cousins since he came in the league.

The Kings have played in 492 games in the 6+ seasons of Cousins career. In those 6+ seasons they have had no fewer than 70 players suit up. Only 2 of those 70 players have played in more than half those games, Cousins and the immortal Jason Thompson. Well known superstud Ben McLemore has brought his career 9.1PER to play in exactly half (246) of them.

Here are the top 20 guys for the Kings franchise in minutes since Cousins arrived with the Kings, and their current status:

1 Cousins
2) Jason Thompson (out of league)
3) Rudy Gay (still with team, 3rd in minutes with less than 3 full seasons of work)
4) Ben Mclemore (still with team, scrub)
5) Tyreke Evans (there for Cousins first two years, unfortunately last 2 Maloof years, traded for the great Greivis Vasquez (out of league)
6) Isaiah Thomas (let walk as a free agent)
7) Marcus Thornton (journeyman reserve in WSH)
8) Omri Casspi (journeyman, still with team)
9) Darren Collison (journeyman borderline starter, still with team)
10) John Salmons (out of league)
11) Derrick Williams (journeyman...Miami?)
12) Francisco Garcia (out of league)
13) Carl Landry (out of league)
14) Beno Udrih (out of league)
15) Jimmer Fredette (out of league)
16) Rajon Rondo (let walk as free agent)
17) Chuck Hayes (out of league)
18) Ray McCallum (out of league)
19) Travis Outlaw (out of league)
20) Samuel Dalembert (out of league)

In any given year Cousins typically has one or two other teammates who would start for most teams, be it Rudy Gay, Isaiah Thomas, or Tyreke Evans. And then a whole stack of Sacramento only specials. In the 492 games in the last 7 years, he's only had 7 teammates who started more than 100 games alongside him: Thompson (291), Gay (207), McLemore (190), Evans (175), Thomas (153), Salmons (112), Thornton (108). A rogue's gallery of guys advanced stats, or any stats, hate. And then a rookie/sophomore Isaiah Thomas before they just dumped him. Altogether he's had 45 different starters next to him in 6+ seasons.

His coaches don't look any better:
Paul Westphal (assistant somewhere)
Keith Smart (assistant somewhere)
Mike Malone (head coach Denver, the one Cousins liked, so of course they canned him)
Tyrone Corbin (out of league I think)
George Karl (out of league)
Dave Joerger (current, and he and Cousins like each other again)


So I just defy anyone to point to ANYONE who's been held back by Demarcus Cousins and then run off to greener pastures and blown up and done great things. Actually, there was one, Isaiah Thomas. And you can try to figure out how Cousins let him walk as a free agent if you'd like, and why Thomas has agitated for the C's to go get Cousins now. The rest of everybody? Most of his former "starters" leave the Kings and barely hang in the league, if at all. Nobody's roles or numbers go up. Half his former teammates are in China at this point. Meanwhile his GMs have drafted Jimmer Fredette over Kemba and Kawhi. Thomas Robinson over Lillard and Drummond. Nik Stauskas over Zach LaVine. Ben Mclemore ovr Giannis Antetokuonmpo. Willie Cauley Stein over Myles Turner. But probably Cousins has just been zapping all of those would be All Stars with a Space Jam gun as soon as they get off the plane. And you know if you are a TRUE superstar you don't care that half of your roster every year wouldn't be in the league if not for your franchise, you take those D-leaguers and whatever cheap washed up coach they tell you to listen to, and you overcome baby!

BTW, once again this season, the Kings win DeMarcus Cousins' minutes on the floor by +1.0. They lose his minutes off the floor by...-13.7. Clearly he's holding back yet another group of All Stars. Its an annual thing with him.

P.S. all of this stuff remains a distraction and a lazy cheat as to how a big man THIS season can be racking up 28pts 10rebs on a 27.8 PER, which (more bball reference) would be 26th best all time for a big man, and never exceeded in any season by any big except Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Admiral or Mikan (i.e. Hakeem has never been there, nor Duncan, nor Ewing, nor any of them), and not even be a Top 10 player in a single season. I assume that means poor scrubs like Moses, Ewing etc. might as well have not even bother suiting up for this era. Might be Top 20 guys at best. Might sneak them into the All Star games as injury replacements maybe.

[Texas Chuck]

There continues to be this nonsense about Cousins somehow singlehandedly being the cause of the woes of that franchise, from idiotic drafting to terrible trades to cheap owners trying to steal the franchise, bargain basement coaching, and sad longterm contracts handed out to scrubs because nobody else will play for them. Cousins must be a busy guy to singlehandedly run a once proud franchise into the ground.


.

This feels like a very false narrative. Where are the posters who are suggesting the Kings' franchise has remotely been competently run in the past decade? Where are the posters blaming those issues on Boogie?

Now what I am saying is that the franchise being a total trainwreck doesn't mean Cousins doesn't have his own issues on and off hte court that make him have less positive impact than his talent says he should.

[Winsome Gerbil]

There continues to be this nonsense about Cousins somehow singlehandedly being the cause of the woes of that franchise, from idiotic drafting to terrible trades to cheap owners trying to steal the franchise, bargain basement coaching, and sad longterm contracts handed out to scrubs because nobody else will play for them. Cousins must be a busy guy to singlehandedly run a once proud franchise into the ground.


.

This feels like a very false narrative. Where are the posters who are suggesting the Kings' franchise has remotely been competently run in the past decade? Where are the posters blaming those issues on Boogie?

Now what I am saying is that the franchise being a total trainwreck doesn't mean Cousins doesn't have his own issues on and off hte court that make him have less positive impact than his talent says he should.

The narrative depends on Cousins issues screwing up something that would otherwise work. There has been NOTHING that would otherwise work.

Also, as it is every year with Cousins:

Cousins +/-: +14.7
Cousins RPM: 4.67 (8th in NBA)

how much more impact are you supposed to have to oh maybe, he might just be able to sneak into the Top 10?

[Texas Chuck]

Rudy Gay this year + 5.3 on court + 25.3 on/off

Let's not get carried away by small sample sizes.

Cousins is a very good player and clearly he's been the best player on the Kings nearly his entire career. Doesn't mean he's a top ten player based on some on/off numbers. Of course the Kings are going to be terrible when he's off the court.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Rudy Gay this year + 5.3 on court + 25.3 on/off

Let's not get carried away by small sample sizes.

Cousins is a very good player and clearly he's been the best player on the Kings nearly his entire career. Doesn't mean he's a top ten player based on some on/off numbers. Of course the Kings are going to be terrible when he's off the court.

He's a Top 10 player based on virtually ALL of the numbers, except the should-be-making-Anthony-Tolliver-a-stud stat. And this is sustained greatness too. Not DeMar having a 3 week bender before inevitably returning to being himself. This is a perennial All NBA player and Team USA guy turning in his best work yet. He was better than Harden last night. He was better than Westbrook the night before that. He was better than DeRozan the game before that. He was better than Paul the game before that.

P.S. BTW, Cousins is annually a high impact guy, last year he was was 14th in RPM. The year before that he was 9th. Now he's got a coach using him correctly, and he's cleaned it up a little bit further still.

[microfib4thewin]

Just looking at last year or this year I don't have Cousins in the top 10, I could put him in the top 10 if we use a mix of last and this season but it's quite a stretch. There are just so many players who are having their best season right now it's difficult to determine where each player stands.

Players with better box and advanced stats this year:
-Davis
-Westbrook
-Harden
-Durant

Players with comparable box but better advanced stats:
-Curry
-Butler
-Kawhi
-Lebron
-Kemba

Players with inferior box but much better advanced stats:
-CP3

Players with inferior box but comparable advanced stats on much better teams:
-Griffin
-Draymond

Out of these players we have Butler, Kemba, Griffin, and Draymond who are not clearly better than Cousins last year. If we put low stock in what Griffin and Draymond are doing because of the team they are on and assume that the jump for Butler and Kemba is not sustainable then I can put Cousins at 9th.

[HeartBreakKid]

Cp3
Lbj
Curry
Durant
Westbrook
Harden
Leonard
Davis

Griffin

I think the top 8 is pretty damn hard to disputed (the list is not in order btw). Cousins argument over those guys seems pretty much based on fantasy basketball more so than reality.

Griffin I put in another cat because a lot of people still don't recognize how good he was. I think griffin has been a top 5 player at least twice in the past (most say at least once), and he's very well tested in the playoffs. Cousins has a more physical game which people gravitate toward but he's not more effective then griffin.

Bg is just as versatile as cousins with more ability to play team oriented ball, he lets the offense come to him. We've also seen griffin without Paul and he delivers in big ways, so it's not just cp3 making Griffin look better than Cousins. The defensive gap between the two is starting to shrink as well I think.


To me the top 9 is very firm, and most would at least agree the top 8 is.

That only leaves one spot to hit the arbitrary top ten mark, and personally, my gut says draymond green is the best player left. He was much better than cousins last year and nothing much has changed. Green will be the heavy favorite for dpoy and he arguably should have won it twice by now.

That still leaves guys like butler, George, Lillard, derozan to compete with Cousins. So I don't see how it is a given he is a top ten player.


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[Winsome Gerbil]

Cp3
Lbj
Curry
Durant
Westbrook
Harden
Leonard
Davis

Griffin

I think the top 8 is pretty damn hard to disputed (the list is not in order btw). Cousins argument over those guys seems pretty much based on fantasy basketball more so than reality.

Griffin I put in another cat because a lot of people still don't recognize how good he was. I think griffin has been a top 5 player at least twice in the past (most say at least once), and he's very well tested in the playoffs. Cousins has a more physical game which people gravitate toward but he's not more effective then griffin.

Bg is just as versatile as cousins with more ability to play team oriented ball, he lets the offense come to him. We've also seen griffin without Paul and he delivers in big ways, so it's not just cp3 making Griffin look better than Cousins. The defensive gap between the two is starting to shrink as well I think.


To me the top 9 is very firm, and most would at least agree the top 8 is.

That only leaves one spot to hit the arbitrary top ten mark, and personally, my gut says draymond green is the best player left. He was much better than cousins last year and nothing much has changed. Green will be the heavy favorite for dpoy and he arguably should have won it twice by now.

That still leaves guys like butler, George, Lillard, derozan to compete with Cousins. So I don't see how it is a given he is a top ten player.


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SMH.

Draymond Green, the 10pt 9reb 6ast roleplayer with the 19PER is much better than DeMarcus Cousins, the 28-10-3 franchise guy. That's not how that works.

As for the other names thrown out, Butler is the only interesting one. Paul George annually gets overrated and never ends up even on the same planet as the true superstars. Think he's a 20 PER guy right now. Which is nice for Rudy Gay, not so much for a Top 10 guy. Lillard and DeRozan are just gunners who play one side of the ball and got off to hot starts. They are not, never have been, nor ever will be in Cousins' class of player.

Butler is somewhat more interesting just because he has at times flashed big star stuff in the past. Still, this is a 27 year old guy with a career 18.3 PER who's never been above 21.3 PER in his life, suddenly rocking a 29.3 PER. Again, that's not how that generally works, and a falloff to his natural level almost has to be in the works.

In fact of all the guys running around putting in career high PERs and whatnot, Cousins is one of the most sustainable. He's been absolutely elite for years. Last year fighting George Karl was his worst PER year since emerging, and it was still a 23.6 I think. Before that he was at 26.1 and 25.3. A little bump to a 27.8 is much more sustainable for a 26 year old just entering his prime than these sudden 6-8 PER pt forward jumps some guys have been rocking.

[LLJ]

Cousins should be traded already just so we can see whether or not his rep as a "team cancer" is deserved. Personally, I'm looking forward to him lighting it up and WINNING on another team.

[penbeast0]

the next thread should be a test how many times in NBA history a 27.5pt 10reb big carrying a 27.6 PER was NOT a Top 10 player

Or how many times a veteran player having the best season of his career 16 games in was able to maintain it. Cousins has been a big box score guy in the past so it wouldn't be a shock if he does maintain it but it's far from a given

[Winsome Gerbil]

the next thread should be a test how many times in NBA history a 27.5pt 10reb big carrying a 27.6 PER was NOT a Top 10 player

Or how many times a veteran player having teh best season of his career 16 games in was able to maintain it.

A 26 year old player just entering his prime? Plenty.

But that doesn't apply very well to this debate anyway, as almost EVERYBODY is having their best season, Curry and Bron excepted. Just running through the Top 10 PERs right now, here are current PERs vs. previous career bests:

Davis 31.4 / 30.8 = +0.6
Westbrook 31.4 / 29.1 = +2.3 (usage at 41.2 btw)
Durant 30.8 / 29.8 = +1.0
Paul 29.5 / 30.0 = -0.5 (although 8 years ago, in the last 4 years his highest was 26.4)
Butler 29.4 / 21.3 = +8.1
Harden 29.0 / 26.7 = +2.3
Kawhi 28.4 /26.0 = +2.4
Cousins 27.8 / 26.1 = +1.7
DeRozan 27.1 / 21.5 = +5.6
James 26.8 / 31.7 = -4.9 (but hasn't been above 27.5 since returning to Cleve, so this may be new norm)


2 of those guys really don't belong and presumably won't be staying at that level. Cousins on the other hand is in the same group as Kawhi, Haren, Durant, Westbrook, and Davis. Guys who are always close to this level just with a little bump. All may sustain or none may, but there's hardly a reason to tag Cousins, a 26 year old player just emerging into his prime years playing for a new coach making things easier for him, as the guy who's out of line.

[Clyde Frazier]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

He's already proved to be coachable by Mike Malone. They got along well, and the team was winning. Then cousins ends up in the hospital, Kings start losing, and Vivek used that as a scapegoat to fire Malone because he wanted to hire Karl. It was absurd.


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[penbeast0]

the next thread should be a test how many times in NBA history a 27.5pt 10reb big carrying a 27.6 PER was NOT a Top 10 player

Or how many times a veteran player having teh best season of his career 16 games in was able to maintain it.

A 26 year old player just entering his prime? Plenty.

But that doesn't apply very well to this debate anyway, as almost EVERYBODY is having their best season, Curry and Bron excepted. Just running through the Top 10 PERs right now, here are current PERs vs. previous career bests:

Davis 31.4 / 30.8 = +0.6
Westbrook 31.4 / 29.1 = +2.3 (usage at 41.2 btw)
Durant 30.8 / 29.8 = +1.0
Paul 29.5 / 30.0 = -0.5 (although 8 years ago, in the last 4 years his highest was 26.4)
Butler 29.4 / 21.3 = +8.1
Harden 29.0 / 26.7 = +2.3
Kawhi 28.4 /26.0 = +2.4
Cousins 27.8 / 26.1 = +1.7
DeRozan 27.1 / 21.5 = +5.6
James 26.8 / 31.7 = -4.9 (but hasn't been above 27.5 since returning to Cleve, so this may be new norm)


2 of those guys really don't belong and presumably won't be staying at that level. Cousins on the other hand is in the same group as Kawhi, Haren, Durant, Westbrook, and Davis. Guys who are always close to this level just with a little bump. All may sustain or none may, but there's hardly a reason to tag Cousins, a 26 year old player just emerging into his prime years playing for a new coach making things easier for him, as the guy who's out of line.

Agree, but then again, we could get a monster streak from a Curry, Griffin, even someone like John Wall or Al Horford to put themselves into the discussion. Your point was that his stats prove he's top 10, mine is that it's too early to tell yet. He's in the mix but it's far from a sure thing.