2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

Tracymcgoaty · Post #661 » by **Tracymcgoaty** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:53 pm

Oh Hae Young wrote:
Tracymcgoaty wrote:Well Looks to me that he has an excellent chance to be a part of the 30/30/60 club few PG in this league have done that if any. Rondos chance is about as big as currys if he keeps this level of play up.

I just looked it up there is no one who has played half of a season that is in the 30/30/60 club, so you're right its unprecedented! wow! does this help his case? Its even rarer than the 50/40/90 club

Well if thats the case it would be an absolute outrage if he is not up there in the conversation for MVP. If he keeps it up it's history in the making.

Dubious Handles · Post #662 » by **Dubious Handles** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:56 pm

When comparing GSW to the 2011 Heat why do people keep forgetting that the Heat had Carlos Arroyo and Joel fkng Anthony as the starting pg and center. The Heat also had no bench to speak of and relied heavily on Wade and James carrying them day in day out. The Warriors are already a well oiled machine and would be first seed in the west with or without Durant imo.
People just continuously try to belittle LeBron at every oppurtinity. First it was Rose, then Durant, then Curry, and now its back to Durant. LeBron is clearly 'most valuable' and still is the best player in the NBA imo- I doubt he wins the MVP award though, the season is long and he will often be taking days off I presume.

Triples333 · Post #663 » by **Triples333** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:06 am

ThePersianFreak wrote:If the Cavs continue to be dominant and LeBron keeps producing at this level, He'll get the MVP no matter what guys like Triples333 say. It's a dream senario for LeBron. He's reminded everybody that he's by far the best player in the world just a few months ago. He's playing at 70% and still putting up great numbers while being the best player on a top 2 team in the league. It's hard to argue against his case so far.

Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Homer38 · Post #664 » by **Homer38** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:14 am

Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:If the Cavs continue to be dominant and LeBron keeps producing at this level, He'll get the MVP no matter what guys like Triples333 say. It's a dream senario for LeBron. He's reminded everybody that he's by far the best player in the world just a few months ago. He's playing at 70% and still putting up great numbers while being the best player on a top 2 team in the league. It's hard to argue against his case so far.

Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Eyes test? I do not think you've seen half of the cavs games this year!

Love is very good, but LeBron is the most important player of the Cavaliers and this is not close.I'm not saying that James is 100% sure of winning the MVP, but saying that he has very little chance of winning is ridiculous.

Triples333 · Post #665 » by **Triples333** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:19 am

Homer38 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:If the Cavs continue to be dominant and LeBron keeps producing at this level, He'll get the MVP no matter what guys like Triples333 say. It's a dream senario for LeBron. He's reminded everybody that he's by far the best player in the world just a few months ago. He's playing at 70% and still putting up great numbers while being the best player on a top 2 team in the league. It's hard to argue against his case so far.

Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Eyes test? I do not think you've seen half of the cavs games this year!

Love is very good, but LeBron is the most important player of the Cavaliers and this is not close.I'm not saying that James is 100% sure of winning the MVP, but saying that he has very little chance of winning is ridiculous.

I've seen about half actually (7 off the top of my head), which is probably more than most the posters in this thread. Love has dominated in quite a few games/situations, especially of late, and while I do agree 'Bron is their best player, let's not proclaim him a carrying force here for the Cavs in the early going. They have been a 3 headed unit offensively and 'Bron is not exactly making waves on the defensive end. As far as saying he has very little chance at winning the award? Direct that comment at somebody who is saying that, because it sure is not me. As is, I would be shocked if he does not finish top 3, as I understand how these things work. That said, I would also be shocked if he won the award, as again, I know how these things work. "Special" seasons/storylines win MVP. 'Bron is not having one at this juncture.

MisterHibachi · Post #666 » by **MisterHibachi** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:20 am

Triples333 wrote:That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Are we supposed to entertain the idea that Love is more valuable because he's competing/beating LeBron in these stats? All this tells us is that box score comparison isn't the best way to measure players.

Triples333 · Post #667 » by **Triples333** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:27 am

MisterHibachi wrote:
Triples333 wrote:That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Are we supposed to entertain the idea that Love is more valuable because he's competing/beating LeBron in these stats? All this tells us is that box score comparison isn't the best way to measure players.

You're not "supposed" to do anything, but you'd probably be foolish not to see #'s across the board like that and not take a second to think, "hm - maybe this guy isn't doing all the heavy lifting over there this year. Maybe we're jumping the gun on proclaiming him a clear MVP favorite".

Now, we also need to recognize that there are two debates going on here. One is who will win MVP, and one is who should win MVP. Most of my comments are directed on the "should" side, but I do firmly believe that it is unlikely that 'Bron takes it down unless his play or his narrative (a Kyrie or Love going down for a couple months with him/them beasting, etc) improves a good bit.

MisterHibachi · Post #668 » by **MisterHibachi** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:09 am

Triples333 wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:
Triples333 wrote:That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Are we supposed to entertain the idea that Love is more valuable because he's competing/beating LeBron in these stats? All this tells us is that box score comparison isn't the best way to measure players.

You're not "supposed" to do anything, but you'd probably be foolish not to see #'s across the board like that and not take a second to think, "hm - maybe this guy isn't doing all the heavy lifting over there this year. Maybe we're jumping the gun on proclaiming him a clear MVP favorite".

Now, we also need to recognize that there are two debates going on here. One is who will win MVP, and one is who should win MVP. Most of my comments are directed on the "should" side, but I do firmly believe that it is unlikely that 'Bron takes it down unless his play or his narrative (a Kyrie or Love going down for a couple months with him/them beasting, etc) improves a good bit.

If there's anything LeBron has an advantage over everyone else it's narrative, so let's stop pretending he has a weak narrative.

Second, yes if a guy is competitive in box score numbers with his teammates it deserves a second look. In this case, a combination of eye test, on-off numbers, past context, and simple common sense makes it clear that Love is not anywhere as valuable as LeBron.

As for heavy lifting:

Cleveland has 12 lineups right now that have a positive net rating per 100 possessions. Of those 12, only 2 don't include LeBron and they've played a total of 19:12 minutes.
4 such lineups without Kyrie for 56:31 minutes.
4 such lineups without Love for 72:02 minutes.
LeBron has off court minutes of 214, so Cavs are a positive with him off only 9% of the time.

Houston:

11 lineups with a positive per 100 rating.
4 without Harden for a total of 78:13 minutes.
Harden has off court minutes of 187, so Houston is a positive without Harden 42% of the time.

And this is along with the fact that Harden's on-court rating is +9.2, impressive sure, but LeBron has him beat in both on-court rating and net rating.

Warriors just to be sure:

Spoiler:

I think it's clear that, at this point, the Cavs need LeBron more than the Warriors/Houston need their individual stars. And he has a better net rating than all of the above four + Westbrook.

Triples333 · Post #669 » by **Triples333** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:28 am

Lol bro raw on/off numbers when you're pontificating on ~50-70 minute samples as evidence are utter noise right now, specifically when you take into account that 'Bron sat the single toughest game on their slate this year (a road b2b against Indiana in the 4th game in 6 nights), where the rest of the guys suited up and took the predictable L. Many people here pointed to that as a positive for Lebron that they took that L, and that's pretty indicative of the type of hero worship that we have going on with him in this thread.

miman15 · Post #670 » by **miman15** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:40 am

Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:If the Cavs continue to be dominant and LeBron keeps producing at this level, He'll get the MVP no matter what guys like Triples333 say. It's a dream senario for LeBron. He's reminded everybody that he's by far the best player in the world just a few months ago. He's playing at 70% and still putting up great numbers while being the best player on a top 2 team in the league. It's hard to argue against his case so far.

Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

Lol. He is the best player in the world., and has been for almost a decade now. You still discredit the guy in everything you say. Smh.

Im not a cavs fan but i give credit to where its due or atlast respect his accomplishments.

Triples333 · Post #671 » by **Triples333** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:42 am

miman15 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:If the Cavs continue to be dominant and LeBron keeps producing at this level, He'll get the MVP no matter what guys like Triples333 say. It's a dream senario for LeBron. He's reminded everybody that he's by far the best player in the world just a few months ago. He's playing at 70% and still putting up great numbers while being the best player on a top 2 team in the league. It's hard to argue against his case so far.

Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

He is the best player in the world., and has been for almost a decade now. You still discredit the guy in everything you say. Smh.

He's not the best day in, day out regular season player in the world (you know, where MVP awards are won and what this thread is discussing), and has not been for years now.

Anyway, enough of this from me, I was just responding to the earlier adolescent "hater" post, and don't care to get into the weeds too deeply on this again right now.

miman15 · Post #672 » by **miman15** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:48 am

Triples333 wrote:
miman15 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:Yeah, I mean we can continue to think I'm just a "hater" or we can look at the reality of the situation. While I do think 'Bron has the most potential to be the best player in the world, he simply has not been (stats and eye test back that up any way you slice it). That team is a 3 headed monster right now as well btw, and I find it very convenient how the 'Bron stans in here are ignoring the fact that K Love has him beat per-36 in PPG/RPG, has a better TS%, a slightly higher WS/48 and slightly lower PER. But again, sorry for injecting a little objective reality into the debate guys, back to your regularly scheduled slobbing.

He is the best player in the world., and has been for almost a decade now. You still discredit the guy in everything you say. Smh.

He's not the best day in, day out regular season player in the world (you know, where MVP awards are won and what this thread is discussing), and has not been for years now.

Anyway, enough of this from me, I was just responding to the earlier adolescent "hater" post, and don't care to get into the weeds too deeply on this again right now.

Nba always rewards winners, even if you dont have the most dominant stats. If you are the best player on the best team then you have a greats shot at the mvp. Just look at d. Rose.

HotRocks34 · Post #673 » by **HotRocks34** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:49 am

There have been 18 individual 30.0+ PER seasons in the NBA (with at least 68 games played). Of those 18 players, only 8 won the MVP that year. 2 players had 30.0+ PER's in the same season another player had a higher 30.0+ PER. Here's the list by highest PER.

31.8 PER ---- Wilt 1963 ---- Did not win MVP (Russell)
31.7 PER ---- Wilt 1962 ---- Did not win MVP (Russell)
31.7 PER ---- MJ 1988 ----- Won MVP
31.7 PER ---- LJ 2009 ------ Won MVP
31.6 PER ---- Wilt 1964 ---- Did not win MVP (Oscar)
31.6 PER ---- MJ 1991 ------ Won MVP
31.6 PER ----- LJ 2013 ------ Won MVP
31.5 PER ----- SC 2015 ------ Won MVP
31.2 PER ----- MJ 1990 ----- Did not win MVP (Magic)
31.1 PER ----- MJ 1989 ----- Did not win MVP (Magic)
31.1 PER ----- LJ 2010 ------ Won MVP
30.8 PER ----- AD 2015 ----- Did not win MVP (Curry, with higher PER)
30.7 PER ----- DR 1994 ----- Did not win MVP (Hakeem)
30.7 PER ----- LJ 2012 ------ Won MVP
30.6 PER ----- SO 2000 ----- Won MVP
30.4 PER ----- DW 2009 ----- Did not win MVP (LeBron, with higher PER)
30.2 PER ----- TM 2003 ----- Did not win MVP (Duncan)
30.2 PER ----- SO 2001 ----- Did not win MVP (Iverson)

HotRocks34 · Post #674 » by **HotRocks34** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:25 am

If Westbrook does average a triple-double, that could complicate the vote substantially.

This could be a very interesting MVP year.

TOStateofMind · Post #675 » by **TOStateofMind** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:52 am

Gonna be real interesting with harden and westbrook playing the way they are. Still think lebron takes it with the cavs easily taking the top spot in the east.

Hero · Post #676 » by **Hero** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:35 am

HotRocks34 wrote:If Westbrook does average a triple-double, that could complicate the vote substantially.

This could be a very interesting MVP year.

He could place in the top 3 but to win it, unlikely unless they are close in the win column to the top teams.

OKC is already 5 and 4 games behind GSW and the Cavs. I just can't see him winning on a 48 win team when other teams are winning 62 games +

Patches Perry · Post #677 » by **Patches Perry** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:44 am

I think the "top team" precedent is not as important when a guy does something unprecedented, like average a triple double. Yes it's true that the MVP most often comes from a top 2-3 team in either conference, but it's a generality not an actual rule. If ever there were a case where it didn't happen, wouldn't it be in the name of something statistically unbelievable?

jg77 · Post #678 » by **jg77** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:08 am

If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

Arman_tanzarian · Post #679 » by **Arman_tanzarian** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:36 am

Regardless of who the MVP will be it's not even close if we are arguing who the actual best player in the league is.

For my current mvp, I say it's WB a bit over bron. Too early to count WB with how he's performing.

RunOKC · Post #680 » by **RunOKC** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:39 am

jg77 wrote:If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

Warriors without Durant = 73 win team
Cavs w/out Lebron = 45 win team

:roll:

How does Durant = Most Valuable Player when the team he's on had 73 wins the season before?