Bucks (6-8) @ Magic (6-10) 27/11 6PM

[Jameerthefear]

I'd like to know how people gauge not "playing hard". I've seen Elfrid bust his butt on defense and play passive offense and people have said he's not playing hard. Do they really mean he's just not attacking and is actually playing too passive? Have they thought that maybe he's just following the offensive gameplan?

That was exactly my point but apparently it went over a lot of other people's heads.

Your point is wrong though. Two coaches now have said the same thing about him. That's not something you brush over or ignore.

[CajunBall]

I'd like to know how people gauge not "playing hard". I've seen Elfrid bust his butt on defense and play passive offense and people have said he's not playing hard. Do they really mean he's just not attacking and is actually playing too passive? Have they thought that maybe he's just following the offensive gameplan?

That was exactly my point but apparently it went over a lot of other people's heads.

Your point is wrong though. Two coaches now have said the same thing about him. That's not something you brush over or ignore.

So you're saying that different game plans like ball movement offense can't ever be a factor in an attacking point guard not attacking the basket all game? Come on, we know coaches change game plans all the time from game to game let's not act like that's not the case and can't ever be a factor.

[Jameerthefear]

That was exactly my point but apparently it went over a lot of other people's heads.

Your point is wrong though. Two coaches now have said the same thing about him. That's not something you brush over or ignore.

So you're saying that different game plans like ball movement offense can't ever be a factor in an attacking point guard not attacking the basket all game? Come on, we know coaches change game plans all the time from game to game let's not act like that's not the case and can't ever be a factor.

Coaches don't change game plans that often during the regular season actually. Are the two coaches that have said the same thing wrong? Is it all just a conspiracy against Elf?

[407Junkie]

I'd like to know how people gauge not "playing hard". I've seen Elfrid bust his butt on defense and play passive offense and people have said he's not playing hard. Do they really mean he's just not attacking and is actually playing too passive? Have they thought that maybe he's just following the offensive gameplan?

Payton isn't always fully engaged on both ends. That's his main problem. For recent example, the other night against the Bucks, his man Brogdon, scored two back to back three's on him, complete morale killer for the team.

Payton has taken less jumpers after the reports of locker room issues on his shot selection. Which is good. At this time in his career his main concern should be slashing to the rim and not pull up jumpers.

Yeah it's always been about engagement with Elfrid. There are times where he just seems checked out, plays lazy defense, doesn't attack the basket, or turns the ball over. But then there are moments in the game where he hounds the ball handler and creates turnovers, gets to the basket at will, makes great passes and makes you think he could be an Allstar.

But for me I think Elfrid will always leave me wanting more. Elf doesn't have that Westbrook mentality where's he's going to give you that level of play 95% of the time. He's going to give it 50-55% which is frustrating but is just the reality.

AKA a backup point guard is what he is.

[zelenooq]

He's not playing Mario. Obviously Frank doesn't feel he's ready.


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maybe is locker room fight
as i see it all three young cores (AG,EP and MH) are separated like they all have problem with vogel
so, hierarchy is here EP>AG>MH
so EP used to play with starters, AG with second unit and MH played only trash time so that explained so many DNP's
now he tried AG as starter, moves EP to second unit and MH stayed for trash time
there is something about that three young guys vogel wants they don't play with each other
for me

who says they are core pieces? if they play doesnt warrant it, they arent core and the play of Mario hasnt warranted it. To be honest, the play of AG hasnt either. And only when Elf plays balls out 100% does his play warrant it, and he just cant seem to do that every game, every other game or even every 3rd game

I said young cores, under 22, not team core
And only pattern is:
- separate 3 of them, starter, 2nd unit, trash time
- EP is 3rd yr > AG is 2nd and 1/2 yr (injury) > MH is 2nd yr

[tiderulz]

That was exactly my point but apparently it went over a lot of other people's heads.

Your point is wrong though. Two coaches now have said the same thing about him. That's not something you brush over or ignore.

So you're saying that different game plans like ball movement offense can't ever be a factor in an attacking point guard not attacking the basket all game? Come on, we know coaches change game plans all the time from game to game let's not act like that's not the case and can't ever be a factor.

game plans can change. That shouldnt effect a player giving 100% when on the court, especially when he should be playing harder to make a difference since he cant shoot very well

[Bensational]

The difference between Westbrook and Payton is that Westbrook is a scoring combo guard and Payton is a pure PG. Westbrook just ran a top 5 player out of town because his ball dominance didn't gel with him. Westbrook goes into plays looking to score, and does an amazing job of finding the open man after defenses fall apart trying to cover him. Elf goes into each play looking to find his guys in their sweet spots. Notice that Vuc, Ibaka and Fournier are mostly in their spots, and they don't often react to the gaps Elf creates? AG, Harris and Oladipo were generally good for that. When Elf plays off they all he's good at spotting gaps, though that seems to have changed this year and I'd wager that's because when the ball isn't in his hands he knows Fournier won't be looking to pass to him.

Bottom line, Elf still has room to improve as does everyone on the team. I think if he looked for his own shot more often (smart shots, attacking the rim) then a lot of the criticism he's getting would quiet down. But to do that he's gotta stop prioritising creating shots for his guys and prioritise finding his own shots, and just rely on them to put themselves in a position depending on what he's doing now.

[bigpimpatl]

The difference between Westbrook and Payton is that Westbrook is a scoring combo guard and Payton is a pure PG. Westbrook just ran a top 5 player out of town because his ball dominance didn't gel with him. Westbrook goes into plays looking to score, and does an amazing job of finding the open man after defenses fall apart trying to cover him. Elf goes into each play looking to find his guys in their sweet spots. Notice that Vuc, Ibaka and Fournier are mostly in their spots, and they don't often react to the gaps Elf creates? AG, Harris and Oladipo were generally good for that. When Elf plays off they all he's good at spotting gaps, though that seems to have changed this year and I'd wager that's because when the ball isn't in his hands he knows Fournier won't be looking to pass to him.

Bottom line, Elf still has room to improve as does everyone on the team. I think if he looked for his own shot more often (smart shots, attacking the rim) then a lot of the criticism he's getting would quiet down. But to do that he's gotta stop prioritising creating shots for his guys and prioritise finding his own shots, and just rely on them to put themselves in a position depending on what he's doing now.

He can't shoot. He can't play off ball. Off ball means he is spotting up in the corners or some other designated area to catch and shoot, or break his man down. Because he can't shoot, defenses will allow him to shoot all day and live with the results. And because he can't shoot, no matter how much he beats his man in a foot race opposing teams would rather live with those results than him finding his teammates in their "sweet spots." Even if you believe that then you must believe opposing defenses know where said sweet spots are and will just anticipate or live with Payton shots/percentages.

Westbrook can shoot the ball, thus allowing him to play as such. I don't even understand why you bring up Westbrook and Payton in the same sentence, as if Payton needs to tweak a couple things in his game to become Westbrook-lite? He'd need to learn (or re-learn if you prefer) how to shoot with consistency.

[Bensational]

The difference between Westbrook and Payton is that Westbrook is a scoring combo guard and Payton is a pure PG. Westbrook just ran a top 5 player out of town because his ball dominance didn't gel with him. Westbrook goes into plays looking to score, and does an amazing job of finding the open man after defenses fall apart trying to cover him. Elf goes into each play looking to find his guys in their sweet spots. Notice that Vuc, Ibaka and Fournier are mostly in their spots, and they don't often react to the gaps Elf creates? AG, Harris and Oladipo were generally good for that. When Elf plays off they all he's good at spotting gaps, though that seems to have changed this year and I'd wager that's because when the ball isn't in his hands he knows Fournier won't be looking to pass to him.

Bottom line, Elf still has room to improve as does everyone on the team. I think if he looked for his own shot more often (smart shots, attacking the rim) then a lot of the criticism he's getting would quiet down. But to do that he's gotta stop prioritising creating shots for his guys and prioritise finding his own shots, and just rely on them to put themselves in a position depending on what he's doing now.

He can't shoot. He can't play off ball. Off ball means he is spotting up in the corners or some other designated area to catch and shoot, or break his man down. Because he can't shoot, defenses will allow him to shoot all day and live with the results. And because he can't shoot, no matter how much he beats his man in a foot race opposing teams would rather live with those results than him finding his teammates in their "sweet spots." Even if you believe that then you must believe opposing defenses know where said sweet spots are and will just anticipate or live with Payton shots/percentages.

Westbrook can shoot the ball, thus allowing him to play as such. I don't even understand why you bring up Westbrook and Payton in the same sentence, as if Payton needs to tweak a couple things in his game to become Westbrook-lite? He'd need to learn (or re-learn if you prefer) how to shoot with consistency.

Westbrook can't shoot, he's not an efficient shooter, so I'm not sure where you get the idea his shooting is what keeps teams in check. It's his speed and power when attacking the paint that disrupts everything and sends defenders scrambling.

Payton's %'s are every bit as good as Westbrook's early years.

The comp to Westbrook was just to highlight the difference in mentality between the two players.