2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[nbafan38]

If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

This isn't even close to true. The MVP stands for Most Valuable Player and there is just no chance that over the course of a season, KD is more valuable to the Warriors than Lebron is to the Cavs. The Cavs are proven for years to be extremely mediocre to flat out crap without Lebron. His team absolutely depends on him to be even close to good. The Warriors without KD would still be a damn good team assuming the other core guys stay healthy.

Yep Lebrons team is somewhat loaded but take him off it and you have a playoff team but no where near a title contender, take Durant off the warriors and you still have a title contender easily.

[Patches Perry]

Undoubtedly Westbrook at this point. I'm not sure OKC will maintain 5th seed and I'm not sure Westbrook maintains 30/11/10 averages, but as long as both of those things are happening, it will be hard to keep the award away from him. Especially when there isn't another stand-out candidate.

[Bergmaniac]

Westbrook now shooting a career low 39% from the field. I don't care how bad his team apparently is and how good his other stats are, no one is winning MVP shooting under 40% surely.

(Iverson was at 42% in his MVP year)

Westbrook's actual FG% is 42.6%, still far from great, but a lot better than 39%. Rose won with a FG% of 44.5% and a TS% of 55.0 (Westbrook is at 53.9%).

[Triples333]

If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

This isn't even close to true. The MVP stands for Most Valuable Player and there is just no chance that over the course of a season, KD is more valuable to the Warriors than Lebron is to the Cavs. The Cavs are proven for years to be extremely mediocre to flat out crap without Lebron. His team absolutely depends on him to be even close to good. The Warriors without KD would still be a damn good team assuming the other core guys stay healthy.

Yep Lebrons team is somewhat loaded but take him off it and you have a playoff team but no where near a title contender, take Durant off the warriors and you still have a title contender easily.

But as we know from as recently as last season, it's not about how good your team will be without you. Without Curry last year, the Warriors are still a very high level team (in fact they beat another playoff team over an entire series and it took them 5 games), and this was the same argument made against him. But you couldn't deny his dominance; inevitably the top player top team criteria prevailed once again (helps when top player is also the top player in the game over the regular season). Similarly, LBJ is more important than KD to his own team, but Durant has been easily better than Lebron and the Warriors easily better than the Cavs. The glaring issue for KD though is that the b2b MVP is on his team and has also been better than Lebron or close to it. They're both going to finish top 5 if that trend continues, but neither will win it.

[Styrian]

Undoubtedly Westbrook at this point. I'm not sure OKC will maintain 5th seed and I'm not sure Westbrook maintains 30/11/10 averages, but as long as both of those things are happening, it will be hard to keep the award away from him. Especially when there isn't another stand-out candidate.

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

This isn't even close to true. The MVP stands for Most Valuable Player and there is just no chance that over the course of a season, KD is more valuable to the Warriors than Lebron is to the Cavs. The Cavs are proven for years to be extremely mediocre to flat out crap without Lebron. His team absolutely depends on him to be even close to good. The Warriors without KD would still be a damn good team assuming the other core guys stay healthy.

Yep Lebrons team is somewhat loaded but take him off it and you have a playoff team but no where near a title contender, take Durant off the warriors and you still have a title contender easily.

So in your opinion MVP should be decided based on subjective opinion on how good teams would be without certain players? This ignores the fact that Warriors with Durant are significantly better team than Cavaliers with Lebron so that comparison seems pointless anyway. The main problem I have with this kind of thinking is that it completely disregards actual performance on the court. Should voters just ignore that Durant has been better on offense, defense, has better rebounding rate and give MVP to LeBron regardless?

From what I've seen I think basketball reference MVP award tracker is pretty accurate at who should win MVP http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

[Ballerhogger]

Westbrook now shooting a career low 39% from the field. I don't care how bad his team apparently is and how good his other stats are, no one is winning MVP shooting under 40% surely.

(Iverson was at 42% in his MVP year)

Westbrook's actual FG% is 42.6%, still far from great, but a lot better than 39%. Rose won with a FG% of 44.5% and a TS% of 55.0 (Westbrook is at 53.9%).

Was rose avg a triple double numbers?? Come on now.

[Ballerhogger]

The clippers are losing streak just lost in double OT to the ....NETS. Chris Paul is not winning the MVP if he can't have big games against nets....

Lebron is coasting . I'll entertain Kevin Durant but that's it. Nobody else is close. Harden coming down to earth as well.

[Patches Perry]

Undoubtedly Westbrook at this point. I'm not sure OKC will maintain 5th seed and I'm not sure Westbrook maintains 30/11/10 averages, but as long as both of those things are happening, it will be hard to keep the award away from him. Especially when there isn't another stand-out candidate.

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

Yes Westbrook has better numbers than Harden but it's not by a big margin. Still, you're grossly underselling the novelty of the triple double. Houston and OKC are about equal right now, so Westbrook's advantage statistically and the novelty of the triple double average would undoubtedly give him the better MVP argument than Harden.

[bondom34]

Undoubtedly Westbrook at this point. I'm not sure OKC will maintain 5th seed and I'm not sure Westbrook maintains 30/11/10 averages, but as long as both of those things are happening, it will be hard to keep the award away from him. Especially when there isn't another stand-out candidate.

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

I'm not sure by what means they're worse. He's a worse shooter yes. But his impact on the team offense is similar if not greater and his on/off splits are much better.

[Triples333]

Undoubtedly Westbrook at this point. I'm not sure OKC will maintain 5th seed and I'm not sure Westbrook maintains 30/11/10 averages, but as long as both of those things are happening, it will be hard to keep the award away from him. Especially when there isn't another stand-out candidate.

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

I'm not sure by what means they're worse. He's a worse shooter yes. But his impact on the team offense is similar if not greater and his on/off splits are much better.

Just depends what stats you're looking at for offense (if that's what you're looking at). Harden has a much higher offensive rating (121 to 110), a higher Offensive RPM and significantly more Offensive Win shares (3.4 to 2.3) along with the significantly better shooting (61.2 TS to 53.9). Really, the only clear space where Westbrook separates himself from Harden is in being the better rebounder, and some of that seems to be due to the teams gameplan. The raw on/off splits are better yes, but so much of that is stat-noise that takes a much deeper look at the lineups and even specific games at this point of the year. I think Harden's been better, but that 3x2 is a nice media trump-card (not to deny that it is damn impressive).

[Patches Perry]

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

I'm not sure by what means they're worse. He's a worse shooter yes. But his impact on the team offense is similar if not greater and his on/off splits are much better.

Just depends what stats you're looking at for offense (if that's what you're looking at). Harden has a much higher offensive rating (121 to 110), a higher Offensive RPM and significantly more Offensive Win shares (3.4 to 2.3) along with the significantly better shooting (61.2 TS to 53.9). Really, the only clear space where Westbrook separates himself from Harden is in being the better rebounder, and some of that seems to be due to the teams gameplan. The raw on/off splits are better yes, but so much of that is stat-noise that takes a much deeper look at the lineups and even specific games at this point of the year. I think Harden's been better, but that 3x2 is a nice media trump-card (not to deny that it is damn impressive).

I'm guessing people won't be looking at win shares, RPM and offensive rating, but yes it depends on which numbers you want to look at and value. I think Westbrook stacks up well by any measure, but the triple double is certainly a trump card.

[Dan Z]

It depends on what your definition of MVP is, but Westbrook has to be the player who helps his team the most right now. Take him off OKC and how many wins would they have right now?

[therealbig3]

My take:

-Westbrook is being overrated a bit by his raw numbers...great players surrounded by not much talent are going to put up huge numbers...doesn't necessarily mean they're playing better than all the other elite players who may have lesser numbers

There have been a lot of great players on bad teams not even sniff a 30+ ppg triple double average. He is carrying the Thunder to 12-8 and the 5th seed in the West right now after losing a top 3 player in the world. Nobody is even close to him in the MVP race if it ended today.

You're too enamored with his triple double line, which is mainly a product of his incredible usage, and he's also averaging a ton of TOs. When you look at a composite box score metric like PER, you'll see that yeah, there have been great players on bad teams doing similar things to Westbrook.

09 Wade: 30.4 PER
03 McGrady: 30.3 PER
16 Westbrook: 30.2 PER

They made up for not generating as many rebounds and assists by being less ball-dominant, less TO-prone, and much more efficient. And in Wade's case, he played much better defense too.

[Edrees]

If you guys want to give LeBron a lifetime achievement award then do that but we're talking about the MVP award and there are more suitable candidates for MVP such as KD at this moment.

This isn't even close to true. The MVP stands for Most Valuable Player and there is just no chance that over the course of a season, KD is more valuable to the Warriors than Lebron is to the Cavs. The Cavs are proven for years to be extremely mediocre to flat out crap without Lebron. His team absolutely depends on him to be even close to good. The Warriors without KD would still be a damn good team assuming the other core guys stay healthy.

Yep Lebrons team is somewhat loaded but take him off it and you have a playoff team but no where near a title contender, take Durant off the warriors and you still have a title contender easily.

Take westbrook off the thunder you have a lottery team (perhaps worst in the west) and take lebron off the cavs abd you still have a playoff team. tell me how Lebron deserves it using this arguement? westbrook is more valuable to OKC than Lebron is to Cleveland.

[Homer38]

Westbrook is the player of the month in the west......

[bondom34]

What argument does Westbrook have over Harden? His stats are cooler? Maybe, but his stats are also worse.

I'm not sure by what means they're worse. He's a worse shooter yes. But his impact on the team offense is similar if not greater and his on/off splits are much better.

Just depends what stats you're looking at for offense (if that's what you're looking at). Harden has a much higher offensive rating (121 to 110), a higher Offensive RPM and significantly more Offensive Win shares (3.4 to 2.3) along with the significantly better shooting (61.2 TS to 53.9). Really, the only clear space where Westbrook separates himself from Harden is in being the better rebounder, and some of that seems to be due to the teams gameplan. The raw on/off splits are better yes, but so much of that is stat-noise that takes a much deeper look at the lineups and even specific games at this point of the year. I think Harden's been better, but that 3x2 is a nice media trump-card (not to deny that it is damn impressive).

His higher O rating is due to teammates largely, as his offensive on/off is pretty much identical (about a plus 15 last I checked). Offensive rebounding leans Westbrook and the RPM gap isn't very large. Westbrook also leads in BPM and VORP which you didn't mention.

[Ballerhogger]

kinda shocked LeBron is player of the month East. Took a game off . yesh.

[Cookin33]

Dont know why r so many people surprised that westbrook took POM. Its easy, he is a leader of OKC and he is literally 70% of their offence. To make it clear im not an fan of okc or russ but guy deserves it and i think he has no competition this year in winning mvp award. There are so many great players but hes numbers man.. And remember numbers dont lie.

[nbafan38]

This isn't even close to true. The MVP stands for Most Valuable Player and there is just no chance that over the course of a season, KD is more valuable to the Warriors than Lebron is to the Cavs. The Cavs are proven for years to be extremely mediocre to flat out crap without Lebron. His team absolutely depends on him to be even close to good. The Warriors without KD would still be a damn good team assuming the other core guys stay healthy.

Yep Lebrons team is somewhat loaded but take him off it and you have a playoff team but no where near a title contender, take Durant off the warriors and you still have a title contender easily.

Take westbrook off the thunder you have a lottery team (perhaps worst in the west) and take lebron off the cavs abd you still have a playoff team. tell me how Lebron deserves it using this arguement? westbrook is more valuable to OKC than Lebron is to Cleveland.

Uhm I'm not sure, Lebron has been the most valuable player to his team basically every year he's beein the nba, just look at what happens when Lebron leaves a team they become irrelevant (first cavaliers in 2011 and then heat in 2015) his numbers have gone down a bit this year so he may be starting to decline but I'd still say Lebron is the most valuable player in the league especially when it matters which is in the playoffs. With that said I hope westbrook keeps this up and does win mvp, he's fun to root for.

[Triples333]

kinda shocked LeBron is player of the month East. Took a game off . yesh.

Just glad the somewhat unwarranted MVP hype will have to slow for a few days after the last two stinkers by him and the team. His numbers are just not there and now that the Cavs have caught up in games to the rest of the NBA (at 17 still T-least games played in the NBA), their record has regressed a bit as well. Will be interesting to see how they handle the b2b in Chicago tomorrow night with 'Bron strolling in with the Cubs jersey (yes guys, I'm against 'Bron's early season hype. I think it's based on rep and not production. You'll catch me shading him in the MVP thread as a #1 pick until he proves to be a clear cut top 5 reg season player this year).