Charles Barkley or Steve Nash?

[GMATCallahan]

None of that information means that a Barkley-Nash tandem would not have "worked," but Nash's experience with Shaquille O'Neal in Phoenix, both on the floor and off it, suggests that complications could have emerged. Multiple longtime basketball writers (Peter Vecsey and Mike Tululmello, the latter of whom covered the Suns locally for years) have written that at least one Phoenix teammate (A.C. Green, who had won multiple championships with the Lakers) suggested to head coach Paul Westphal at one point that Phoenix trade Barkley—because of the latter's unwillingness to get with the program and follow team rules. Or as center Danny Schayes later told told a newspaper columnist after leaving the Suns, "Charles has his own set of rules and can do whatever he wants." (Although Schayes appreciated Barkley's humor as much as anyone, he too wanted the Suns to fully function as a team.) Those comments in the paper led to Barkley's flagrant foul on Schayes (along with an off-color comment) that one can see late in the second video here from January 30, 1996, in Miami:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYWff_A9Fms[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qxQi0qXqeE[/youtube]

By the way, here is an Arizona Republic account of the matter:

Wednesday, January 31, 1996 The Arizona Republic

He was having fun again. - Barkley dived after a loose ball, leaped over the scorer's table and wound up in the lap of Riley's wife, Chris. "He (Riley) has good taste," Barkley said. He shot a free throw with his eyes closed and missed. He danced to some Caribbean music during a timeout. And he got even with a former teammate. Barkley was charged with a flagrant foul midway through the fourth quarter when he smacked former Suns center Dan Schayes, who criticized the Suns and Barkley earlier this season in a New York Post article. Later, when Schayes lost the ball and missed everything on a layup attempt, Barkley said, "It must be my night. Schayes air-balls a layup, and I got to hammer his (rear). I could die tonight and be happy." Schayes shrugged it off. "I think I said they have a different set of rules for Charles, and he pretty much did what he wanted," Schayes said. "It was probably too close to the truth. But, hey, I'll take two free throws any time." The free throws were the least of Barkley's concerns. The game was over long before he fouled Schayes.

... Fitzsimmons said. "We tried to take advantage of the fact (Miami) played (Monday night) in New York. We tried to get after them, force some mistakes and run off of them." Which the Suns did. Their defense was superb, particularly by John "Hot Rod" Williams and Joe Kleine on Miami center Alonzo Mourning, who finished with only 13 points and four rebounds. ' And when Barkley and KJ weren't scoring, rookie Michael Finley was wreaking havoc. Finley collected his second double-double on the trip, scoring 23 points, grabbing 10 rebounds and adding' six assists and a couple of blocked shots. Fitzsimmons has discouraged Finley from taking three-point shots, but he wants him to get the ball in transition. (Finley put on a dunk exhibition as the Suns beat the Heat on the break most of the night. "He (Fitzsimmons) hasn't taken the three-point shot away from me,", Finley said. "He just doesn't want me to rely on it. He would rather I leave the three-point shooting to Wesley (Person). I don't want to jinx us right now, but we've got some good signs going. We're starting to learn each other, and we're only going to get better as the year goes on." The Suns could hardly get any worse than they were during much of the season's first half. With Williams back in the lineup and Danny Manning poised to return as early as Sunday against the Washington Bullets, the Suns may be ready to make a run. And they'll need to now that Magic Johnson has returned to the Los Angeles Lakers. The top eight teams in each conference qualify for the playoffs, and the Suns are currently eighth in the Western Conference. Magic's return will make the race even tougher. Riley, who won five NBA championships with the Magic Man as his point guard, certainly could use him in Miami. The loss was the Heat's 10th in 13 games. And the Heat's struggles became Barkley's joy.

By Bob Young Staff writer.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/123728556/

[GMATCallahan]

I will say Steve Nash, as he is my Suns fandom.


now, i was about to make the case for Amar'e. He played more years as a Sun, I thought. I was wrong about that, as Steve played some years after Amar'e left for New York.

But.....check this out.

Amar'e Stoudemire VORP, 2002-09: 14.4
Steve Nash VORP, 2004-11: 19.1
Charles Barkley VORP, 1992-95: 22.3
Shawn Marion VORP, 1999-2007: 40.5

Well, now. This tells me a couple of things.

1. VORP is a way of comparing a player's statistical contributions to that of another player.
2. Shawn Marion played 9 seasons as a Sun. Steve Nash played 10 seasons a Sun, but that includes his first two in 1996-97 and 1997-98.
3. Shawn Marion scored nearly 2,000 more points in his Suns career than Steve Nash.
4. You could make the argument that Shawn and Amar'e would not have been this good were it not for Steve Nash.
5. You could also make the argument that Steve Nash would not have been this good were it not for Shawn and Amar'e.

Here is the most interesting point:

6. Shawn Marion contributed 93.3 Win Shares as a Sun.
7. Steve Nash contributed 82.7 Win Shares as a Sun.


I'm not definitively saying that Shawn Marion was a better Sun than Steve Nash. I'm not convinced that the system could have worked as well with a different point guard. However, it is possible that had we traded Steve Nash for Jason Kidd, the system might have run just as well.

In addition (and I can't believe I'm saying this), I would argue that Shawn Marion is a more unique player than Steve Nash.

while I'm not sure what I'm saying, the argument can be made, at least, that Shawn Marion was the most valuable Sun of all time.

Win Share/Value Over Replacement-oriented metrics are quite flawed; among other defects, they overvalue rebounds vis-à-vis assists. And while Nash received an MVP Award and reached the Western Conference Finals without Stoudemire in 2006, and led the Suns back to the Western Conference Finals without Marion in 2010, Phoenix constituted a 29-win club in '03-'04 when Marion amounted to Phoenix's best player.

Marion was a wonderful player, but he could never lead a team anywhere. VORP's notion that he created about twice as much value as Nash over a similar length of time recognizes his defensive value compared to Nash's, but overall, the idea remains ridiculous. Indeed, if Marion was the most valuable Sun in history, he probably would have made a greater impact on Miami and Toronto.

Jason Kidd's ability to rebound and push the ball would have certainly fit D'Antoni's uptempo offense filled with three-point shooters and above-the-rim finishers. But overall, Kidd rarely ran efficient offenses (on a points-scored-per-possession basis) in his prime. He was not nearly the half-court penetrator that Nash happened to be, and Kidd proved much easier to defend on the pick-and-roll given that defenders could go under the screen, or sag back, and dare him to shoot. Overall, those Phoenix teams would not have been as offensively efficient with Kidd instead of Nash, probably by a huge margin. Where Kidd would have helped would have been on defense (and the ability to spark fast breaks by forcing live-ball turnovers), but even then, those smallish clubs would not have outstanding defensively, especially not with Stoudemire at center. With Kidd instead of Nash, those Suns teams could have won 50-plus games, but they would not have reached 60 wins twice or been as much of a contender in the playoffs. A half-court offense with Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Amare Stoudemire (with Kidd-Stoudemire pick-and-rolls/pops instead of Nash-Stoudemire pick-and-rolls/pops) just would not have been that good.