2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread

[LloydFree]

Thats assuming though that he will never improve his jumper. I also think Ball is an awful fit for you guys. If you want Simmons to be at his best and to be effective he will need the ball in his hands and that automatically cancels out the strengths of Ball and DSJ, both of them need to run the offense to be at their best. I do think Jackson is going to improve his jumper, plus you cant think just about offense, thats what Minnesota did and look at them, their pieces arent improving and they arent winning. Jackson you know is going to be a good defender and will be a flat out terror in transition and on cuts with Simmons out there. If he is there and Fultz isnt, I think you have to take a chance with him and hope he becomes a 2 way threat. Jackson is a high floor not matter what and a really high ceiling if he gets that jumper down.

Ball's not just a facilitator, though. He's knocking down over 2 threes a game and over 80% of them are assisted. He's a great catch and shoot player. Which is exactly what you want playing with Embiid and Simmons.

Im not saying Ball isnt a good shooter. Im a huge Ball fan. But his biggest strength is running an offense. Simmons needs to run the offense, with no jumper and no low post moves for him to shine he needs to run the offense. Can Ball play off of that, ya of course but you start getting diminishing returns because their strengths over lap one another. Neither are scorers, their both setup type players. Thats why I think Fultz fits better, Fultz is an elite scorer on or off the ball. Fultz doesnt need to run the offense for him to be at his best, he just needs to be put in situations to score because scoring is what he does best.

There are no diminishing returns. He's a catch and shoot player who sees the court and passes the ball. He doesn't pound the ball. There is never too many passers or rebounders on a team. Only too many guys who pound the ball or too many guys who can't shoot.

[Duke4life831]

Ball's not just a facilitator, though. He's knocking down over 2 threes a game and over 80% of them are assisted. He's a great catch and shoot player. Which is exactly what you want playing with Embiid and Simmons.

Im not saying Ball isnt a good shooter. Im a huge Ball fan. But his biggest strength is running an offense. Simmons needs to run the offense, with no jumper and no low post moves for him to shine he needs to run the offense. Can Ball play off of that, ya of course but you start getting diminishing returns because their strengths over lap one another. Neither are scorers, their both setup type players. Thats why I think Fultz fits better, Fultz is an elite scorer on or off the ball. Fultz doesnt need to run the offense for him to be at his best, he just needs to be put in situations to score because scoring is what he does best.

There are no diminishing returns. He's a catch and shoot player who sees the court and passes the ball. He doesn't pound the ball. There is never too many passers or rebounders on a team. Only too many guys who pound the ball or too many guys who can't shoot.

Again im not saying Ball cant play off of Simmons, I know Ball can catch and shoot. My point is Ball isnt considered a top 5 pick for his ability to catch and shoot. Its his ability to run an offense. I believe the plan for you guys is to have Simmons be the main ball handler, which I believe is by far the best way to use him. So what you should look for is a scorer who can score off the ball and can handle some limited PG duties. For that role a guy like Monk fits a lot better than Ball. Monk is a scoring combo guard who can handle the ball and score on his own or can be a really good catch and shoot guy. Fultz is just a better version of that and is another combo guard that can score on or off the ball.

Again im not saying Ball cant play next to Simmons, what im saying is there are players that fit that role better than Ball. Ball at his best is going to be running the offense not running off screens catching and shooting, he can do it, but thats not his best skill set. So in my opinion, if you take the ball out of Ball's hands and dont ask him to be your primary ball handler you will get diminishing returns from him because you arent using him at his strengths.

[Kobblehead]

You're exaggerating this "diminishing returns" point into rendering it silly. You can never have enough unselfish creators on the floor together. Especially with one of them being a knockdown shooter.

[LloydFree]

Im not saying Ball isnt a good shooter. Im a huge Ball fan. But his biggest strength is running an offense. Simmons needs to run the offense, with no jumper and no low post moves for him to shine he needs to run the offense. Can Ball play off of that, ya of course but you start getting diminishing returns because their strengths over lap one another. Neither are scorers, their both setup type players. Thats why I think Fultz fits better, Fultz is an elite scorer on or off the ball. Fultz doesnt need to run the offense for him to be at his best, he just needs to be put in situations to score because scoring is what he does best.

There are no diminishing returns. He's a catch and shoot player who sees the court and passes the ball. He doesn't pound the ball. There is never too many passers or rebounders on a team. Only too many guys who pound the ball or too many guys who can't shoot.

Again im not saying Ball cant play off of Simmons, I know Ball can catch and shoot. My point is Ball isnt considered a top 5 pick for his ability to catch and shoot. Its his ability to run an offense. I believe the plan for you guys is to have Simmons be the main ball handler, which I believe is by far the best way to use him. So what you should look for is a scorer who can score off the ball and can handle some limited PG duties. For that role a guy like Monk fits a lot better than Ball. Monk is a scoring combo guard who can handle the ball and score on his own or can be a really good catch and shoot guy. Fultz is just a better version of that and is another combo guard that can score on or off the ball.

Again im not saying Ball cant play next to Simmons, what im saying is there are players that fit that role better than Ball. Ball at his best is going to be running the offense not running off screens catching and shooting, he can do it, but thats not his best skill set. So in my opinion, if you take the ball out of Ball's hands and dont ask him to be your primary ball handler you will get diminishing returns from him because you arent using him at his strengths.

There is no law against having two players on one team with the ability to dribble a basketball...

It only becomes a problem if both players are score 1st ball hogs and both have to get their shots off the dribble. The Cavs play with James and Irving, the Warriors play with Curry and Draymond, even the Lakers play with Russell and Clarkson, but the 76ers can't play with Simmons and Ball? Come on. There have been plenty of teams that ran with two players capable of running the point.

[tsmith]

Im still struggling to trust Ball's shot with how horrible his form is.....
Guess you could say the stats dont lie though

[Duke4life831]

There are no diminishing returns. He's a catch and shoot player who sees the court and passes the ball. He doesn't pound the ball. There is never too many passers or rebounders on a team. Only too many guys who pound the ball or too many guys who can't shoot.

Again im not saying Ball cant play off of Simmons, I know Ball can catch and shoot. My point is Ball isnt considered a top 5 pick for his ability to catch and shoot. Its his ability to run an offense. I believe the plan for you guys is to have Simmons be the main ball handler, which I believe is by far the best way to use him. So what you should look for is a scorer who can score off the ball and can handle some limited PG duties. For that role a guy like Monk fits a lot better than Ball. Monk is a scoring combo guard who can handle the ball and score on his own or can be a really good catch and shoot guy. Fultz is just a better version of that and is another combo guard that can score on or off the ball.

Again im not saying Ball cant play next to Simmons, what im saying is there are players that fit that role better than Ball. Ball at his best is going to be running the offense not running off screens catching and shooting, he can do it, but thats not his best skill set. So in my opinion, if you take the ball out of Ball's hands and dont ask him to be your primary ball handler you will get diminishing returns from him because you arent using him at his strengths.

There is no law against having two players on one team with the ability to dribble a basketball...

It only becomes a problem if bother players are score 1st ball hogs and both have to get their shots off the dribble. The Cavs play with James and Irving, the Warriors play with Curry and Draymond, even the Lakers play with Russell and Clarkson, but the 76ers can't play with Simmons and Ball? Come on. There have been plenty of teams that ran with two players capable of running the point.

Youre not getting what im saying. Ball is a pass first PG. His game is all about setting guys up. Simmons is a pass first point forward, his best asset is setting up his teammates. Again can Ball be a scorer off the ball? Yes. But that is not his strength. It would be like pairing Steve Nash with Ricky Rubio. Both at their best with the ball and running the offense. You wouldnt be able to take Rubio off the ball because his lack of jumper, so that means you would be taking Nash off the ball. Can he do that and still be a catch and shoot guy, ya Nash was a hell of a shooter. But you aint getting the best out of Nash if he aint running your offense.

What does all 3 of those combos you just showed have in common. Score first players in them. Kyrie is a gunner, he is a score first type of player (just like Fultz or Monk). Curry is a gunner, he is a score first type of player (again just like Fultz or Monk). Russell and Clarkson are both score first type players.

The problem im saying with a Ball/Simmons combo is neither guy is a score first type of personality. Fultz can handle the ball, im not saying he cant play with Simmons, I think he is a perfect fit for Simmons. Ball is a pass first guy, hes not a gunner, the dude can go half a game and put up only 1 shot. You want to pair Simmons with a scorer, just like Cleveland did with Lebron and Kyrie. Pair Simmons with a guy that is going to look to score and can do that on and off the ball, that is Fultz or Monk.

[Duke4life831]

Im still struggling to trust Ball's shot with how horrible his form is.....
Guess you could say the stats dont lie though

80% FT shooter in high school and a 44% shooter from 3 in high school. Actually had a season he hot over 60%. He was actually first known as unathletic shooter when he first came on the high school stage. His athleticism really took off his senior year. If there is going to be a guy to be say the next Reggie Miller horrible ugly form but somehow it works, I think Ball could be that guy.

[Marcus]

He's only saying Fultz is a better fit. Not saying Lonzo can't work. Y'all taking it like he's saying Ball shouldn't be out there with Ben in no way shape or form. He's just making the point that you can get your catch and shoot as well as a perimeter one on one threat when the clocks running down in Fultz.

It's the Bosh/Love with LeBron conversation. Nobody is saying those guys can't work with LeBron. Just saying it's harder to completely maximize everything they can do with LeBron on the floor with them. Obviously it worked for some championships but we all know there's more to their games than they're allowed to show that's it. Lonzo could be dumped onto any team and be good because he's a team guy that does a lot of things on the floor. He'd just be better utilized as the primary decision maker.

[Marcus]

Again im not saying Ball cant play off of Simmons, I know Ball can catch and shoot. My point is Ball isnt considered a top 5 pick for his ability to catch and shoot. Its his ability to run an offense. I believe the plan for you guys is to have Simmons be the main ball handler, which I believe is by far the best way to use him. So what you should look for is a scorer who can score off the ball and can handle some limited PG duties. For that role a guy like Monk fits a lot better than Ball. Monk is a scoring combo guard who can handle the ball and score on his own or can be a really good catch and shoot guy. Fultz is just a better version of that and is another combo guard that can score on or off the ball.

Again im not saying Ball cant play next to Simmons, what im saying is there are players that fit that role better than Ball. Ball at his best is going to be running the offense not running off screens catching and shooting, he can do it, but thats not his best skill set. So in my opinion, if you take the ball out of Ball's hands and dont ask him to be your primary ball handler you will get diminishing returns from him because you arent using him at his strengths.

There is no law against having two players on one team with the ability to dribble a basketball...

It only becomes a problem if bother players are score 1st ball hogs and both have to get their shots off the dribble. The Cavs play with James and Irving, the Warriors play with Curry and Draymond, even the Lakers play with Russell and Clarkson, but the 76ers can't play with Simmons and Ball? Come on. There have been plenty of teams that ran with two players capable of running the point.

Youre not getting what im saying. Ball is a pass first PG. His game is all about setting guys up. Simmons is a pass first point forward, his best asset is setting up his teammates. Again can Ball be a scorer off the ball? Yes. But that is not his strength. It would be like pairing Steve Nash with Ricky Rubio. Both at their best with the ball and running the offense. You wouldnt be able to take Rubio off the ball because his lack of jumper, so that means you would be taking Nash off the ball. Can he do that and still be a catch and shoot guy, ya Nash was a hell of a shooter. But you aint getting the best out of Nash if he aint running your offense.

What does all 3 of those combos you just showed have in common. Score first players in them. Kyrie is a gunner, he is a score first type of player (just like Fultz or Monk). Curry is a gunner, he is a score first type of player (again just like Fultz or Monk). Russell and Clarkson are both score first type players.

The problem im saying with a Ball/Simmons combo is neither guy is a score first type of personality. Fultz can handle the ball, im not saying he cant play with Simmons, I think he is a perfect fit for Simmons. Ball is a pass first guy, hes not a gunner, the dude can go half a game and put up only 1 shot. You want to pair Simmons with a scorer, just like Cleveland did with Lebron and Kyrie. Pair Simmons with a guy that is going to look to score and can do that on and off the ball, that is Fultz or Monk.

Nevermind you posted while I was typing lol.

[Kobblehead]

When I think of the "better fit" I rarely think of two ball dominant players that can flirt with 30% usage as being a perfect match. Especially when there's a high usage phenom at C that needs to be fed, as well.

Offenses with two alpha ball possessors tend to be "take turns" systems that eventually end up in a guy getting shipped out for incompatibility.

I don't want to make a definitive statement on Fultz yet, but I'm not sure why people are so comfortable assuming he'd be a perfect fit with Simmons. Ball is a much more logical fit, all things considered. Low maintenance, unselfish, skillset compatibility, off ball proficiency.

[LloydFree]

He's only saying Fultz is a better fit. Not saying Lonzo can't work. Y'all taking it like he's saying Ball shouldn't be out there with Ben in no way shape or form. He's just making the point that you can get your catch and shoot as well as a perimeter one on one threat when the clocks running down in Fultz.

It's the Bosh/Love with LeBron conversation. Nobody is saying those guys can't work with LeBron. Just saying it's harder to completely maximize everything they can do with LeBron on the floor with them. Obviously it worked for some championships but we all know there's more to their games than they're allowed to show that's it. Lonzo could be dumped onto any team and be good because he's ai team guy that does a lot of things on the floor. He'd just be better utilized as the primary decision maker.

I know exactly what he's saying and I think he's off base. As long as you have players who share the ball, having two decision makers on Offense is a good thing as long as the ball is moving. Ball doesn't dominate the ball, yet he shoots five 3pointers every game and makes them at a high percentage. He does more than enough shooting to compliment Simmons and Embiid.
At this point, I don't agree that Fultz is the better fit, just because he is the more score 1st player. And it's not just about Simmons. Embiid is the focal point of the team. Having players who will get the the big man the ball is as important as getting a player who looks to get his. I think both players can fit, but the lower usage player makes a lot of sense, with both Embiid and Simmons already on the team.

[eagereyez]

Ball is the 4th leading scorer at UCLA, a team that racks up assists even without him. He has the luxury of camping the perimeter and waiting for the ball to swing to him. If Fultz did the same at UW, the possession would end in either a turnover or a miss. Fultz probably is more ball dominant than Ball by nature, but their teams are exasperating this difference. If they switched places the usage rate difference would be closer to 25/22 than 30/17. These guys aren't numbers on a spreadsheet, they're human beings capable of adapting to their situation.

[Negrodamus]

I'm curious about Jayson Tatum. I think by season's end, he could end up the #1 pick. He was a freak in HS.

[phifans]

We've got our interial scorer on Embiid and our facilitator on Simmons. Now we need a perimeter scorer. And I think Fults fits that bill.

[PhilasFinest]

Thats assuming though that he will never improve his jumper. I also think Ball is an awful fit for you guys. If you want Simmons to be at his best and to be effective he will need the ball in his hands and that automatically cancels out the strengths of Ball and DSJ, both of them need to run the offense to be at their best. I do think Jackson is going to improve his jumper, plus you cant think just about offense, thats what Minnesota did and look at them, their pieces arent improving and they arent winning. Jackson you know is going to be a good defender and will be a flat out terror in transition and on cuts with Simmons out there. If he is there and Fultz isnt, I think you have to take a chance with him and hope he becomes a 2 way threat. Jackson is a high floor not matter what and a really high ceiling if he gets that jumper down.

Ball's not just a facilitator, though. He's knocking down over 2 threes a game and over 80% of them are assisted. He's a great catch and shoot player. Which is exactly what you want playing with Embiid and Simmons.

Im not saying Ball isnt a good shooter. Im a huge Ball fan. But his biggest strength is running an offense. Simmons needs to run the offense, with no jumper and no low post moves for him to shine he needs to run the offense. Can Ball play off of that, ya of course but you start getting diminishing returns because their strengths over lap one another. Neither are scorers, their both setup type players. Thats why I think Fultz fits better, Fultz is an elite scorer on or off the ball. Fultz doesnt need to run the offense for him to be at his best, he just needs to be put in situations to score because scoring is what he does best.

I dont think people are debating who's better between Fultz/Ball....more so saying how Ball would be a great pickup for the Sixers and might not require the #1 overall pick to do so....then again with the way both are playing, you could be looking at the top 2 players in the draft come June.

Agree that Ball's best trait is his playmaking and running an offense, but its not like he is some insanely high usage guard who pounds the rock and has to do everything to rack up stats. He's racking up almost 10 apg with pretty low usage, showing that he moves the ball quickly and plays within the confines of the offense. Add in the fact that he's a high level catch and shoot threat and I see no problem with Simmons/Ball co-existsing. LeBron and Wade/ LeBron and Kyrie all have co-existed pretty successfully and id imagine Ball/Simmons could do the same.

[PhilasFinest]

Im still struggling to trust Ball's shot with how horrible his form is.....
Guess you could say the stats dont lie though

Ive mentioned it before, but its pretty damn similar in wind up to Kevin Martin's jumper. especially early on. Martin had an awkward jumper (improved it overtime) but managed to score at a high level and shot for his career, 38% from 3, 87% FT and 44% FG.

If his shot looked like it does and sucked, like that of a MKG.....then id be worried. But the kid is stroking it at an elite rate right now. Guess we will see how the season plays out, but so far it looks legit.

[sixerswillrule]

There are no diminishing returns. He's a catch and shoot player who sees the court and passes the ball. He doesn't pound the ball. There is never too many passers or rebounders on a team. Only too many guys who pound the ball or too many guys who can't shoot.

And too many guys are who are not suited to be a 1B scoring option on a contending team...

[Unbreakable99]

How high do you guys think Issac will be drafted?

[PhilasFinest]

When I think of the "better fit" I rarely think of two ball dominant players that can flirt with 30% usage as being a perfect match. Especially when there's a high usage phenom at C that needs to be fed, as well.

Offenses with two alpha ball possessors tend to be "take turns" systems that eventually end up in a guy getting shipped out for incompatibility.

I don't want to make a definitive statement on Fultz yet, but I'm not sure why people are so comfortable assuming he'd be a perfect fit with Simmons. Ball is a much more logical fit, all things considered. Low maintenance, unselfish, skillset compatibility, off ball proficiency.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the entire Fultz/Ball situation.

Embiid is likely our #1 offensive option no matter what. Dude has been flat out ridiculous and this is after missing 2 years of basketball coming out of college. His ceiling is unreal offensively...like Dirk/KG/Hakeem like and will only get better with time assuming he stays healthy.

Ball and Simmons may be "pass first playmakers" but its not like they are Rajon Rondo's. I think both would be capable of scoring in the realm of 20 a night in the NBA. Add that to Embiid and you've got a core that is potentially special with 2 unselfish, elite playmakers and a 7'2" big that has an extremely diverse game on both ends of the floor.

[PhilasFinest]

How high do you guys think Issac will be drafted?

I haven't watched a ton of him this year, but he has pretty high upside considering his size/skill-set. Only 19, Nearly 6'11" with a 7'1.25" wingspan and can handle,shoot 44% from 3 and score the ball. Gets over a block and steal per game too.

Everyone seems to bite on the whole "KD like" package in terms of long skinny 6'10" wings who can score. Kinda reminds me of Quincy Miller at times, but then again he looks like a Brandon Ingram too.He could rise if he continues to develop and does seem more fluid than Miller ever was.


If your picking in the top 5 and need a wing (we do) he's gotta be someone to take a hard look at. Get him stronger and dialed in on defense and you could have a menace on your hands with mismatch potential.


Hell, he may end up being someone we should look at, especially if we land that Laker pick. If he can 100% play the wing, he'd be an intriguing addition to the team on the perimeter.