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The Boogie Watch

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asudevil
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#181 » by asudevil » Thu Dec 8, 2016 7:57 am

GoranTragic wrote:
dremill24 wrote:Go throw Knight, Len, 2 1sts for Cousins out there to non-Suns fans and see how that goes.


They can take the deal or lose him for nothing :)


Let's say Knight for Noel happens.

Len/Chriss/2x Firsts (Suns 2017/Heat 2018) for Cousins/Koufus. I'd be willing to throw in they future Heat pick as well if needed.

Kings rid themselves of a long term contract. And they solidify a young FC with Len/Chriss. In a PG heavy draft, they can then draft a young kid to pair with Len/Chriss, and build for the future.

Noel/Chandler/Koufus
Cousins/Bender
Warren/Dudley
Booker/Barbosa
Bledsoe/Ulis

After that, i'd even trade Tucker to the Bucks for Henson, so we have a PF vet until Bender develops.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#182 » by TeamTragic » Thu Dec 8, 2016 7:59 am

asudevil wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
dremill24 wrote:Go throw Knight, Len, 2 1sts for Cousins out there to non-Suns fans and see how that goes.


They can take the deal or lose him for nothing :)


Let's say Knight for Noel happens.

Len/Chriss/2x Firsts (Suns 2017/Heat 2018) for Cousins/Koufus. I'd be willing to throw in they future Heat pick as well if needed.

Kings rid themselves of a long term contract. And they solidify a young FC with Len/Chriss. In a PG heavy draft, they can then draft a young kid to pair with Len/Chriss, and build for the future.

Noel/Chandler/Koufus
Cousins/Bender
Warren/Dudley
Booker/Barbosa
Bledsoe/Ulis

After that, i'd even trade Tucker to the Bucks for Henson, so we have a PF vet until Bender develops.


I think that is a fair offer. I would give up Chriss before Bender.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#183 » by GMATCallahan » Thu Dec 8, 2016 9:13 am

ginobiliflops wrote:^ That trade broke my heart.


The Person-McDyess deal? Interesting. Overall, I liked the trade at the time because of McDyess' upside; he figured to give the Suns their power forward of the future while helping in the present as well. But I did feel some ambivalence about the deal due to the loss of Person and the breakup of Phoenix's four-guard offense from the stretch drive of the previous season. Conversely, the media—and perhaps the Suns' management—acted as if the trade constituted a total steal for Phoenix. As I indicated, not only did the loss of Person end up hurting the Suns badly over the long haul (and the team would have missed him even if McDyess had re-signed), but the three first-round draft picks that Phoenix surrendered in that transaction cost the club as well.

Even during the '97-'98 season, the Suns evidently felt that they missed Person to some extent because they traded Cedric Ceballos to Dallas after the All-Star break for veteran three-point bombardier Dennis Scott. Scott was actually in shape that year and would play well for Phoenix, shooting .449 on threes, but after a home win over the Lakers on February 18, 1998, Ceballos overheard Jason Kidd, Rex Chapman, Kevin Johnson, and Danny Manning vociferously arguing with head coach Danny Ainge, in Ainge's office, telling their coach not to trade him. Those teammates all felt that Ceballos—in addition to being a productive player when he received the opportunity—was great for the team's chemistry, even when he was not in the playing rotation. But Ainge, looking ahead to the playoffs, understandably wanted another three-point shooter and floor spacer on the roster. The irony is that with Person no longer a member of the team, Ainge would turn to Scott, who as Ceballos noted, Ainge had privately disparaged for years. (And Scott would not return to Phoenix after the season, despite having done a good job.) So Ceballos, too, was something of a casualty of the McDyess trade and the loss of Wesley Person.

In another irony, McDyess came on as that season progressed, but overall, Phoenix failed to fully take advantage of his ability. When the Suns really found their stride late in the season, winning ten games in a row, he averaged 20.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.7 blocked shots, and 1.6 steals in 32.4 minutes during the streak, shooting .679 from the field. Phoenix's most impressive victory of the year probably came at the Great Western Forum against the Lakers, who would win 61 games that season and reach the Western Conference Finals. On April 10, 1998, one game after losing Danny Manning for the season with a torn ACL, McDyess posted 37 points (15-23 FG, 7-11 FT) with 12 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocked shots, and 5 steals (one of ten games that season where he recorded multiple blocks and multiple steals in the same contest).

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1997&b=19980410&tm=LAL

I distinctly remember watching that game. McDyess had developed twenty-foot shooting range over the course of that season, and he and Kevin Johnson (15 points on 5-7 FG, 5-6 FT, 8 assists, and 4 rebounds in 28 minutes off the bench) worked the pick-and-roll/pop just beautifully—perhaps I should say clinically—in that game. Bill Walton was raving about it on the TNT broadcast, saying that if McDyess just played off Johnson, things would be very easy for him. As noted in the Arizona Republic:

Kevin Johnson came off the bench to give the Suns 28 minutes of solid basketball, teaming with McDyess to pick-and-roll the Lakers into submission. KJ scored 15 points, handed out eight assists and directed a 32-22 Phoenix second quarter that gave the Suns control of the game.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/124407217/


McDyess' combination of scoring abilities was rather akin to Amar'e Stoudemire's in Phoenix, except that he possessed some post-up moves, too, and then he actually played defense on the other end. The combination of McDyess and a veteran K.J. in the pick-and-roll/pop thus could have been analogous to Stoudemire and a veteran Steve Nash on the play years later—if the 1998 Suns had featured it more. When Phoenix showcased that combination in that game, the Lakers had no answers, and overall, McDyess' surge late in that season probably reflected, in part, the fact that K.J.'s minutes increased a bit down the stretch. Although he came off the bench throughout the ten-game winning streak, Johnson was at least able to average 27.7 minutes over that span, during which he averaged 9.9 points, 6.8 assists, just 1.9 turnovers, a 3.58:1.00 assists-to-turnover ratio, and a .558 True Shooting Percentage. But over the course of the season, Phoenix could have 'weaponized' McDyess much more by emphasizing pick-and-rolls/pops with him and Kevin Johnson.

But back to the issue of 'lateral' turnover, I just realized last night that by the '00-'01 season, Phoenix only retained one player who had been on the roster four seasons earlier: Jason Kidd. Of course, by the start of the '96-'97 season, only one player was left from Phoenix's NBA Finals team in June 1993: Kevin Johnson. And had all that turnover actually made the team better? The Colangelos were much more strategic and knowledgeable than most of what we have seen since, but they did suffer from impatience and a propensity to make "grass is greener" changes. Subsequent management teams have displayed a similar tendency, like McDonough after the '13-'14 season. As Johnson stated circa 1995, "Adding players all the time? Timeout. Houston subtracts players and still wins." Charles Barkley, too, proved critical of the fact that by the start of the '95-'96 season, only he and K.J. remained from the Suns' Finals team from a little over two years earlier. Basketball is not Fantasy Football, obviously. What makes the difference often times is continuity and the feel that players have for playing with one another.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#184 » by nevetsov » Thu Dec 8, 2016 12:55 pm

Whenever I think of what value a disenfranchised all-star C carries, for some reason I think of what Miami gave up to land Shaq.

From memory (which admittedly is a bit hazy) they gave up their entire starting frontcourt, which was at the time an Eastern conference play-off team:

-Caron Butler (rising star)
-Lamar Odom (prime star)
-Brian Grant (veteran stud).

3 solid assets. I think Melo and Deron Williams landed similar packages of around 3 assets, too.

So what does Sac need? They have an abundance of young frontcourt guys, so they probably could probably use a veteran big like Grant (Chandler).

Warren is a pretty good comparison to Butler in this trade.

We don't really have an established star though other than Bledsoe.

Warren
Bledsoe
Chandler

Sounds like a package that Sac could use. Perhaps we could include picks and/ or other young guys (Knight, Bender, Chriss etc.) to balance out the pieces. Eg if we could swap Bled and Warren for Knight and Chriss, I would happily include a lottery pick or two to balance the value.

Chriss (2016 1st)
Knight (2017 LAL 1st)
2017 PHX 1st
2019 PHX or MIA 1st
Chandler

That's the equivalent of 4 recent lotto picks, more if you break Chriss down into the assets paid for him.

Bledsoe, Ulis
Booker, Barbosa
Warren, Chucker
Bender, Dudley
Cousins, Len

Knight, Collison
Afflalo, Mclemore
Gay, no idea
Chriss, Papagiannis
Chandler, Cauley-Stein/ Labissiere

With a few lotto picks to round out their wing spots (and they have Bogdanovic). Chandler to me seems like the perfect mentor to Cauley-Stein.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#185 » by RunDogGun » Thu Dec 8, 2016 3:51 pm

I think it would be a huge mistake to trade Warren at this point. I think he is a special player, but overall with the strange injury and absence because of it, would make it difficult to add in a trade.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#186 » by SideSwipe » Thu Dec 8, 2016 5:39 pm

nevetsov wrote:Whenever I think of what value a disenfranchised all-star C carries, for some reason I think of what Miami gave up to land Shaq.

From memory (which admittedly is a bit hazy) they gave up their entire starting frontcourt, which was at the time an Eastern conference play-off team:

-Caron Butler (rising star)
-Lamar Odom (prime star)
-Brian Grant (veteran stud).

3 solid assets. I think Melo and Deron Williams landed similar packages of around 3 assets, too.

So what does Sac need? They have an abundance of young frontcourt guys, so they probably could probably use a veteran big like Grant (Chandler).

Warren is a pretty good comparison to Butler in this trade.

We don't really have an established star though other than Bledsoe.

Warren
Bledsoe
Chandler

Sounds like a package that Sac could use. Perhaps we could include picks and/ or other young guys (Knight, Bender, Chriss etc.) to balance out the pieces. Eg if we could swap Bled and Warren for Knight and Chriss, I would happily include a lottery pick or two to balance the value.

Chriss (2016 1st)
Knight (2017 LAL 1st)
2017 PHX 1st
2019 PHX or MIA 1st
Chandler

That's the equivalent of 4 recent lotto picks, more if you break Chriss down into the assets paid for him.

Bledsoe, Ulis
Booker, Barbosa
Warren, Chucker
Bender, Dudley
Cousins, Len

Knight, Collison
Afflalo, Mclemore
Gay, no idea
Chriss, Papagiannis
Chandler, Cauley-Stein/ Labissiere

With a few lotto picks to round out their wing spots (and they have Bogdanovic). Chandler to me seems like the perfect mentor to Cauley-Stein.


While I don't disagree on the three assets part, comparing Cousins to Shaq is not close. Shaq was completely dominant, a former MVP, 3-time champion still averaging 21.5/11.5/2.5 while playing great defense in the paint. Cousins is scoring more, but less efficiently, and Cousins is not half the defender that Shaq was. That should temper the quality of the assets conveyed in a Cousins trade.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#187 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Dec 8, 2016 7:15 pm

GMATCallahan wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:^ That trade broke my heart.


The Person-McDyess deal? Interesting.


Yeah, Wesley was my favorite player so that one stung for me. Of course McDyess did great for us but it being so short lived just stuck the knife in even deeper.
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Re: RE: Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#188 » by carey » Thu Dec 8, 2016 7:33 pm

SideSwipe wrote:While I don't disagree on the three assets part, comparing Cousins to Shaq is not close. Shaq was completely dominant, a former MVP, 3-time champion still averaging 21.5/11.5/2.5 while playing great defense in the paint. Cousins is scoring more, but less efficiently, and Cousins is not half the defender that Shaq was. That should temper the quality of the assets conveyed in a Cousins trade.


Thank you.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#189 » by bwgood77 » Thu Dec 8, 2016 7:52 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#190 » by Jkam31 » Thu Dec 8, 2016 8:13 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
dremill24 wrote:Go throw Knight, Len, 2 1sts for Cousins out there to non-Suns fans and see how that goes.


They can take the deal or lose him for nothing :)


Yup only Phoenix will make an offer


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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#191 » by LukasBMW » Thu Dec 8, 2016 8:18 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Insert "Thrift Sale" song here.

We gonna pop some tags/Boogie gonna be a bargain/we gonna trade knight and len/this is f-ing awesome
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#192 » by bwgood77 » Thu Dec 8, 2016 8:28 pm

LukasBMW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Insert "Thrift Sale" song here.

We gonna pop some tags/Boogie gonna be a bargain/we gonna trade knight and len/this is f-ing awesome


Yeah, I'm sure we want another guy going through a lawsuit.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#193 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Dec 8, 2016 10:14 pm

Why does Barnes still have a job?
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#194 » by TeamTragic » Thu Dec 8, 2016 10:34 pm

RunDogGun wrote:I think it would be a huge mistake to trade Warren at this point. I think he is a special player, but overall with the strange injury and absence because of it, would make it difficult to add in a trade.


Guess what I'm thinking happened? Big trade about to go down and Warren was the player that was the deal breaker. McD then announces that Warren got injured and won't pass the physical. We give up a different player or offer an additional pick.

lilfishi22 wrote:Why does Barnes still have a job?


Fake tough guy. Apparently they need them in the NBA.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#195 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Dec 9, 2016 12:18 am

GoranTragic wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Why does Barnes still have a job?


Fake tough guy. Apparently they need them in the NBA.

That's what I mean. He's more trouble than he's worth. Seriously, what does he provide? Defense? There's 100 guys waiting in the wings who play as good defense. 3Pt shooting? 33.4% career from the 3. Scoring? Single digit career scorer.

From this
Barnes was arrested in 2010 on suspicion of domestic violence against Govan, and for driving with a suspended license and threatening a police officer in July 2012

to this
On December 28, 2015, Barnes was suspended by the NBA for two games for a physical altercation with New York Knicks coach Derek Fisher at the home of Barnes' estranged wife in Southern California in October.[26] On January 13, 2016, the NBA Players Association filed a grievance on behalf of Barnes to get his two-game suspension without pay rescinded.[27] Four days later, he was fined $35,000 by the NBA for publicly defending his violence towards Fisher in their October scuffle.

And considering his contributions on the court. How does the guy have a job??
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#196 » by carey » Fri Dec 9, 2016 1:15 am

LukasBMW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Insert "Thrift Sale" song here.

We gonna pop some tags/Boogie gonna be a bargain/we gonna trade knight and len/this is f-ing awesome


That is... not the name of the song. :lol: I'd be down with buying a Boogie Cousins on sale though.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#197 » by GMATCallahan » Fri Dec 9, 2016 1:40 am

lilfishi22 wrote:Why does Barnes still have a job?


Based on his season in Phoenix, Barnes is capable of being a good passer and slasher, so he offers some versatility. He seemed to find a home with the Clippers, but only for three years.
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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#198 » by TeamTragic » Fri Dec 9, 2016 1:59 am

carey wrote:
LukasBMW wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Insert "Thrift Sale" song here.

We gonna pop some tags/Boogie gonna be a bargain/we gonna trade knight and len/this is f-ing awesome


That is... not the name of the song. :lol: I'd be down with buying a Boogie Cousins on sale though.


Does he come with a new brain? I guess we will have to wait for the new version.
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Re: RE: Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion 

Post#199 » by jredsaz » Fri Dec 9, 2016 1:59 am

OGBAH wrote:Read this on the enterwebs
2 firsts,Knight and Bender for Cousins.
Id do it I think idk

I have been thinking that gets a deal done for a while if we want to do it. Bender will get Vlade all kinds of hot and bothered. Plus Bender would compliment the other young bigs Vlade has cultivated the last couple years with his versatility

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Re: The Boogie Watch 

Post#200 » by Villalobos » Fri Dec 9, 2016 2:27 am

Don't Serbians and Croatians have a tricky relationship? Vlade might be more interested in Chriss. Flashier, super athletic, more exciting, hometown kid. Vivek definitely would be, I'd think.

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