Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI

[dangermouse]

Manimal DNP CD?

They are getting our first aren't they?

[Dark Faze]

I mean no disrespect...but you're in 12th place. It's delusional to think that only LeBron stands between you and the NBA Finals. You guys have talent, but it's ill-fitting.

Beal and Wall aren't a great pairing and can't guarantee you a playoff berth.

What's the definition of insanity?

kk

This is a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east and that raptors team is not significantly different today. There are real and obvious reasons for the Wizards taking a down turn in the last couple of years--one being the decision to hold onto all of their cards and essentially tank a year by hoping to have enough salary for Kevin Durant, and then this year by using money to build a terrible bench.

None of this has anything to do with the core players. The core players can stop this team from being better than a 50 win team, but it's absolutely good enough to be a playoff team and be competitive in the playoffs. Attempts to fix our GM's issues need to be made before tearing the entire team down.

We're not like the Hawks. We don't have two core players like Horford and Millsap who seem to have had/have a clear interest in leaving. Our core guys are locked up.

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

[BealsLegs]

Manimal DNP CD?

They are getting our first aren't they?

I hope not, I'd rather be using him as a smallball 5 than say smith or nicholson mostly cause hes a waaaay better on the offensive and defensive glass but he can't shoot beyond the restricted area and nugget fans say he sucks at help defense.

Honestly such a flawed outdated powerforward seems right up ernies alley so they might actually be getting our first, and watch that pick turn into jon isaac or harry giles

[Meliorus]

kk

This is a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east and that raptors team is not significantly different today. There are real and obvious reasons for the Wizards taking a down turn in the last couple of years--one being the decision to hold onto all of their cards and essentially tank a year by hoping to have enough salary for Kevin Durant, and then this year by using money to build a terrible bench.

None of this has anything to do with the core players. The core players can stop this team from being better than a 50 win team, but it's absolutely good enough to be a playoff team and be competitive in the playoffs. Attempts to fix our GM's issues need to be made before tearing the entire team down.

We're not like the Hawks. We don't have two core players like Horford and Millsap who seem to have had/have a clear interest in leaving. Our core guys are locked up.

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Dismantling a good core because of a bad bench has never happened before (to my limited knowledge). I feel like as fans we're reactionary and want radical change immediately from game to game. Ted & Ernie are thinking about the financial situation and how trading Wall or Beal will decrease the attendance even more. Instead, I think Ernie will push hard to trade for a star to get more "click streams" and elevate us into the playoffs.

[Illmatic12]

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Dismantling a good core because of a bad bench has never happened before (to my limited knowledge). I feel like as fans we're reactionary and want radical change immediately from game to game. Ted & Ernie are thinking about the financial situation and how trading Wall or Beal will decrease the attendance even more. Instead, I think Ernie will push hard to trade for a star to get more "click streams" and elevate us into the playoffs.

Agreed, but I don't think Ted should be giving much weight to Ernie's opinion at this point. He should be vetting other GM candidates as we speak

[Meliorus]

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Dismantling a good core because of a bad bench has never happened before (to my limited knowledge). I feel like as fans we're reactionary and want radical change immediately from game to game. Ted & Ernie are thinking about the financial situation and how trading Wall or Beal will decrease the attendance even more. Instead, I think Ernie will push hard to trade for a star to get more "click streams" and elevate us into the playoffs.

Agreed, but I don't think Ted should be giving much weight to Ernie's opinion at this point. He should be vetting other GM candidates as we speak

Probably the other way around, where Ted is ragging on Ernie to make a move ASAP to get us more attendance. Ernie is feeling the pressure.

[Illmatic12]

Dismantling a good core because of a bad bench has never happened before (to my limited knowledge). I feel like as fans we're reactionary and want radical change immediately from game to game. Ted & Ernie are thinking about the financial situation and how trading Wall or Beal will decrease the attendance even more. Instead, I think Ernie will push hard to trade for a star to get more "click streams" and elevate us into the playoffs.

Agreed, but I don't think Ted should be giving much weight to Ernie's opinion at this point. He should be vetting other GM candidates as we speak

Probably the other way around, where Ted is ragging on Ernie to make a move ASAP to get us more attendance. Ernie is feeling the pressure.

Unless Ted is fully in willfull ignorance mode, he can't ignore that Ernie is directly one of the leading causes for poor attendance.

It's gotten to the point where people are holding up "Not my GM" signs at games lol. Dan Steinberg (WaPo) has written a lot about how the majority of fans he encounters say they will remain apathetic about the team until Grunfeld is fired.

Even on ESPN Around the Horn and First Take, they've had segments discussing Grunfeld's terrible GM tenure and how he's wasting away the franchise. Ted sees everything in the media, and he's been fortunate in the past that the local + national media has mostly overlooked the Wizards. But it's getting to where from a national perspective, people are wondering what's wrong with the Wizards and the finger is being pointed directly at the front office.

Imo, the general sentiment is that even if the Wizards aren't contenders anytime soon, ownership should at least look like they care and are trying to put out a good product. Leaving Grunfeld in charge for perpetuity sends a message that no one cares about the team.

[Ruzious]

kk

This is a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east and that raptors team is not significantly different today. There are real and obvious reasons for the Wizards taking a down turn in the last couple of years--one being the decision to hold onto all of their cards and essentially tank a year by hoping to have enough salary for Kevin Durant, and then this year by using money to build a terrible bench.

None of this has anything to do with the core players. The core players can stop this team from being better than a 50 win team, but it's absolutely good enough to be a playoff team and be competitive in the playoffs. Attempts to fix our GM's issues need to be made before tearing the entire team down.

We're not like the Hawks. We don't have two core players like Horford and Millsap who seem to have had/have a clear interest in leaving. Our core guys are locked up.

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Using the sweep of the Raptors 2 years ago for your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. Kyle Lowry shouldn't have been playing in that series.

[Meliorus]

Agreed, but I don't think Ted should be giving much weight to Ernie's opinion at this point. He should be vetting other GM candidates as we speak

Probably the other way around, where Ted is ragging on Ernie to make a move ASAP to get us more attendance. Ernie is feeling the pressure.

Unless Ted is fully in willfull ignorance mode, he can't ignore that Ernie is directly one of the leading causes for poor attendance.

It's gotten to the point where people are holding up "Not my GM" signs at games lol. Dan Steinberg (WaPo) has written a lot about how the majority of fans he encounters say they will remain apathetic about the team until Grunfeld is fired.

Even on ESPN Around the Horn and First Take, they've had segments discussing Grunfeld's terrible GM tenure and how he's wasting away the franchise. Ted sees everything in the media, and he's been fortunate in the past that the local + national media has mostly overlooked the Wizards. But it's getting to where from a national perspective, people are wondering what's wrong with the Wizards and the finger is being pointed directly at the front office.

Imo, the general sentiment is that even if the Wizards aren't contenders anytime soon, ownership should at least look like they care and are trying to put out a good product. Leaving Grunfeld in charge for perpetuity sends a message that no one cares about the team.

I feel like only hardcore fans who go on fan-boards and forums even know about Grunfeld's failures. I have friends who go to games who don't understand the root of the problem. People will just say, "Jason Smith and Marcus Thornton suck.The bench sucks. Gortat is so soft! They need Cousins!"

[Illmatic12]

Probably the other way around, where Ted is ragging on Ernie to make a move ASAP to get us more attendance. Ernie is feeling the pressure.

Unless Ted is fully in willfull ignorance mode, he can't ignore that Ernie is directly one of the leading causes for poor attendance.

It's gotten to the point where people are holding up "Not my GM" signs at games lol. Dan Steinberg (WaPo) has written a lot about how the majority of fans he encounters say they will remain apathetic about the team until Grunfeld is fired.

Even on ESPN Around the Horn and First Take, they've had segments discussing Grunfeld's terrible GM tenure and how he's wasting away the franchise. Ted sees everything in the media, and he's been fortunate in the past that the local + national media has mostly overlooked the Wizards. But it's getting to where from a national perspective, people are wondering what's wrong with the Wizards and the finger is being pointed directly at the front office.

Imo, the general sentiment is that even if the Wizards aren't contenders anytime soon, ownership should at least look like they care and are trying to put out a good product. Leaving Grunfeld in charge for perpetuity sends a message that no one cares about the team.

I feel like only hardcore fans who go on fan-boards and forums even know about Grunfeld's failures. I have friends who go to games who don't understand the root of the problem. People will just say, "Jason Smith and Marcus Thornton suck.The bench sucks. Gortat is so soft! They need Cousins!"

In the past I'd agree with you but the anti-EG contingent is getting larger and more national. There are other teams that suck that don't have fanbases as apathetic as the Wizards. There are teams that don't have an exciting talent like John Wall who have better turnouts. Stadiums completely empty to the point where we have homecourt advantage based on how quiet it is..

WASHINGTON -- The scoreboard wasn't working at the outset, when there were thousands of empty seats and the fans that did show up were quiet as can be, so the arena announcer pierced the silence Thursday night, telling the small gathering by just how much the mediocre Washington Wizards were trailing the Denver Nuggets, basket after basket.

"It was kind of, like, a gloomy feel," Denver's Wilson Chandler said.

Read on Twitter

Lol. Ted notices those empty seats and the aura of negativity surrounding his franchise, we know he sees it all. Especially in comparison to the Caps

[payitforward]

Suffice to say if you had been following the conversation you would have been able to pick up on tongue in cheek humor, but you may not be sensible enough it figure it out.

Good point -- glad you just made it up.

I suppose in today's environment it's hard to tell when someone isn't being serious.

Fair enough. Anyway, this is all yesterday's news by now.

[Dark Faze]

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Using the sweep of the Raptors 2 years ago for your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. Kyle Lowry shouldn't have been playing in that series.

He was largely awful for a large part of last years playoffs as well. Should we discount that too? The raptors could very easily have lost in the first round last year. They could have lost in the second round too. They don't deserve any excuses. Just like we don't deserve them, but people seem to want to discount what we did against them and pump up the Raptors at the same time which speaks of an agenda to me.

[Ruzious]

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

Using the sweep of the Raptors 2 years ago for your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. Kyle Lowry shouldn't have been playing in that series.

He was largely awful for a large part of last years playoffs as well. Should we discount that too? The raptors could very easily have lost in the first round last year. They could have lost in the second round too. They don't deserve any excuses. Just like we don't deserve them, but people seem to want to discount what we did against them and pump up the Raptors at the same time which speaks of an agenda to me.

That's irrelevant. The point is that beating Toronto was hardly a difficult feet and means very little as to what we have now.

[Dark Faze]

Using the sweep of the Raptors 2 years ago for your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. Kyle Lowry shouldn't have been playing in that series.

He was largely awful for a large part of last years playoffs as well. Should we discount that too? The raptors could very easily have lost in the first round last year. They could have lost in the second round too. They don't deserve any excuses. Just like we don't deserve them, but people seem to want to discount what we did against them and pump up the Raptors at the same time which speaks of an agenda to me.

That's irrelevant. The point is that beating Toronto was hardly a difficult feet and means very little as to what we have now.

Lmao, it's not irrelevant. We lost to a team that was better than them in the Hawks while John Wall was injured as well.

It's completely relevant. It shows that teams that are roughly as strong as what we would face now were teams that this core was able to go toe to toe with. By comparison the Celtics haven't even gotten out of the first round yet, a team that supposedly has a much better future than us. Now of course, we aren't capable of much right now, but the core has improved. Otto is better, Wall is better, Brad is better. It's a very large hill to climb to get the rest of the team up to par yes, but what your core players have proven is absolutely relevant when it comes to deciding whether to tear it down or not.

[Illmatic12]

He was largely awful for a large part of last years playoffs as well. Should we discount that too? The raptors could very easily have lost in the first round last year. They could have lost in the second round too. They don't deserve any excuses. Just like we don't deserve them, but people seem to want to discount what we did against them and pump up the Raptors at the same time which speaks of an agenda to me.

That's irrelevant. The point is that beating Toronto was hardly a difficult feet and means very little as to what we have now.

Lmao, it's not irrelevant. We lost to a team that was better than them in the Hawks while John Wall was injured as well.

It's completely relevant. It shows that teams that are roughly as strong as what we would face now were teams that this core was able to go toe to toe with. By comparison the Celtics haven't even gotten out of the first round yet, a team that supposedly has a much better future than us. Now of course, we aren't capable of much right now, but the core has improved. Otto is better, Wall is better, Brad is better. It's a very large hill to climb to get the rest of the team up to par yes, but what your core players have proven is absolutely relevant when it comes to deciding whether to tear it down or not.

Big difference is that Toronto has gradually been building up their roster depth for years, Ujiri has spent a lot of money but it's mostly been smart signings on reliable role players.

Grunfeld kept diving in the bargain bin for guys on 1yr deals and aging vets. We don't have any reliable core role players under contract

[payitforward]

kk

This is a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east... There are real and obvious reasons for the Wizards... down turn ...--one being the decision to hold onto all of their cards and essentially tank a year by hoping to have enough salary for Kevin Durant, and then this year by using money to build a terrible bench.

None of this has anything to do with the core players. The core players can stop this team from being better than a 50 win team, but it's absolutely good enough to be a playoff team....

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

I ignored them b/c they didn't say anything special. Pretty much every team has at least some core players good enough to be on a playoff team. Nor was there a "decision to... tank a year... to have enough salary for Kevin Durant." Nor did I say we should "dismantle" the Wizards. And, of course the bench is horrible, and of course we should fire Ernie before doing anything else.

But, no, this is not a team that's a player or so away from contending in the East, which is your claim. This is a very bad team with a few good players and a tight salary bind. The Wizards aren't going anywhere. We're getting worse not better.

[Dat2U]

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but for the rest, Faze, I agree that you're being delusional. For starters, no, this is *not* "a team that not that long ago swept the 2nd best team in the east." It's a team with the same name, yes, but not the same team. Moreover that was almost 2 years ago -- yes, that's pretty long ago in NBA time.

We're 7-13, and 11 of those games have been at home. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. The Cavs could lose every game the rest of the way and we still wouldn't be in the playoffs. Our 5-6 home record projects to 18 home wins. Our 2-7 road record projects to 8 or 9 road wins. We suck.

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

I ignored them b/c they didn't say anything special. Pretty much every team has at least some core players good enough to be on a playoff team. Nor was there a "decision to... tank a year... to have enough salary for Kevin Durant." Nor did I say we should "dismantle" the Wizards. And, of course the bench is horrible, and of course we should fire Ernie before doing anything else.

But, no, this is not a team that's a player or so away from contending in the East, which is your claim. This is a very bad team with a few good players and a tight salary bind. The Wizards aren't going anywhere. We're getting worse not better.

I said 3 players. One quality starter at PF and two solid bench players. Would you disagree with this?

[payitforward]

He was largely awful for a large part of last years playoffs as well. Should we discount that too? The raptors could very easily have lost in the first round last year. They could have lost in the second round too. They don't deserve any excuses. Just like we don't deserve them, but people seem to want to discount what we did against them and pump up the Raptors at the same time which speaks of an agenda to me.

That's irrelevant. The point is that beating Toronto was hardly a difficult feet and means very little as to what we have now.

Lmao, it's not irrelevant. We lost to a team that was better than them in the Hawks while John Wall was injured as well.

It's completely relevant. It shows that teams that are roughly as strong as what we would face now were teams that this core was able to go toe to toe with. By comparison the Celtics haven't even gotten out of the first round yet, a team that supposedly has a much better future than us. Now of course, we aren't capable of much right now, but the core has improved. Otto is better, Wall is better, Brad is better. It's a very large hill to climb to get the rest of the team up to par yes, but what your core players have proven is absolutely relevant when it comes to deciding whether to tear it down or not.

So, this is your point: "Otto is better, Wall is better, Brad is better"? And this means that we are, as you originally claimed, one Cavs injury from competing for the EC finals?

That is what people are finding ridiculous. That and the idea that you want to hang some big claim about the team on the fact that we beat Toronto two years ago! When we had Paul Pierce instead of Markieff Morris. When Rasual Butler had his imitation-all-star year. When we had Ramon Sessions instead of Trey Burke, Nene instead of Jason Smith/Andrew Nicholson, etc.

[payitforward]

I'm not sure why you completely ignored the contextual reasons that I mentioned for why we suck. The bench is horrific. The stats support this. Everything supports this. This isn't a problem with the core. If you want to let a poor bench be the reason to completely dismantle a team then fine, but understand your position is the stranger one.

I ignored them b/c they didn't say anything special. Pretty much every team has at least some core players good enough to be on a playoff team. Nor was there a "decision to... tank a year... to have enough salary for Kevin Durant." Nor did I say we should "dismantle" the Wizards. And, of course the bench is horrible, and of course we should fire Ernie before doing anything else.

But, no, this is not a team that's a player or so away from contending in the East, which is your claim. This is a very bad team with a few good players and a tight salary bind. The Wizards aren't going anywhere. We're getting worse not better.

I said 3 players. One quality starter at PF and two solid bench players. Would you disagree with this?

I was responding to Faze not you, Dat.

A starter and two good bench guys could amount to almost 6000 minutes of PT. That's 30% of the total. There is no question that it would be possible to plug in the names of 3 guys who could make us a lot better!

But, whom do you have in mind? I.e. plug in the 3 guys and remove (I assume) Nicholson, Smith and Burke.

Keep in mind that at least 2 of our starters would be playing fewer minutes. That's good of course; it's hard to imagine those guys getting through the season w/o injury at this rate. But it also means that lower production players will be taking those minutes.

[Jamaaliver]

I don't know that we should trade John Wall, but...

We're 7-13. 4 of our 7 wins have been against some of the worst teams in the league. We suck.

I respect any man that can speak hard truths.

WAS has some serious talent. But if you feature three potential max salary players...you'd better at least be a league average team.

Building around a rotten, losing core is a recipe for calamity. And, for some reason...this is undeniably a losing core.