Lonzo Ball

Post #81 » by **Duke4life831** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 7:57 pm

I think without a doubt he's going to be the most polarizing player in this draft. With Isaac as #2.

No-Man · Post #82 » by **No-Man** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 8:15 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:I think without a doubt he's going to be the most polarizing player in this draft. With Isaac as #2.

Markkanen to a degree, but especially Rabb, I think are those guys, over Lonzo and Isaac.

HotelVitale · Post #83 » by **HotelVitale** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 8:17 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:Overall, having a hard time getting a read on him as a pro. I'm not floored by his size-athleticism package but you can't dispute the results. My big worry with him is that he's just ahead of the curve mentally--he's playing like a 24 year-old in terms of his awareness and IQ, but once other players catch up with him, he won't have special enough raw tools to be a great NBA player.
I think all your concerns are valid. But regarding his IQ, I think we've seen enough shoot-first point guards in college and the NBA that don't expand significantly beyond that, to see that really smart college players will typically be really smart pro players (other weaknesses aside.) I am projecting from a small sample size so far, but I think his IQ and awareness are always going to stand out. I think at the very least he'll be a very good pro, which basically justifies a top 5 to 8 pick (or maybe higher depending on how season plays out.).

Well, we know he won't be a dumb, shoot-first player but we don't know that he'll be able to put his good IQ to high-level use in the NBA. I've been watching a lot of Sergio Rodriguez play PG for the Sixers, and he's got great awareness/vision, is a reliable 3 pt shooter, and has a great handle and pretty good size. He's not that great because he's just not a super athlete, and he can't make all sorts of insanely hard fadeaways and leaning 25 footers like Nash could.

In the NBA, you have to be able to kill it in the half court against extremely long, disciplined, and athletic defenses. Most of what I see Ball do now isn't relevant to that. That's not a bad thing, just makes it harder to project someone like Ball whose main attributes aren't physical abilities or skill.

Cammo101 · Post #84 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 10:13 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:I think without a doubt he's going to be the most polarizing player in this draft. With Isaac as #2.

What exactly does everyone find so polarizing about Isaac? I'm not seeing it.

Post #85 » by **Duke4life831** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 10:16 pm

Cammo101 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:I think without a doubt he's going to be the most polarizing player in this draft. With Isaac as #2.

What exactly does everyone find so polarizing about Isaac? I'm not seeing it.

I just think those are the two most polarizing guys in the draft. Some really love Ball and think hes a legit choice at #1 while I see others think hes not that good and wouldnt take him top 5. When it comes to Isaac ive seen people talk about how they would take him top 3 and before other wings like Jackson and Tatum. Then I see people say they wouldnt take him in the top 10.

Cammo101 · Post #86 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 10:21 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Cammo101 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:I think without a doubt he's going to be the most polarizing player in this draft. With Isaac as #2.

What exactly does everyone find so polarizing about Isaac? I'm not seeing it.

I just think those are the two most polarizing guys in the draft. Some really love Ball and think hes a legit choice at #1 while I see others think hes not that good and wouldnt take him top 5. When it comes to Isaac ive seen people talk about how they would take him top 3 and before other wings like Jackson and Tatum. Then I see people say they wouldnt take him in the top 10.

Isaac has all the makings of an elite prospect IMO. Plus size, plus athleticism, solid skills, works hard, active defender and rebounder. I'm not sure yet if he is a top 3 pick, but I see no reason he can't be depending on what everyone around him does the rest of the year. I don't see him ahead of Jackson, but I definitely see him in front of Tatum at the moment.

Post #87 » by **Duke4life831** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 10:43 pm

Cammo101 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Cammo101 wrote:
What exactly does everyone find so polarizing about Isaac? I'm not seeing it.

I just think those are the two most polarizing guys in the draft. Some really love Ball and think hes a legit choice at #1 while I see others think hes not that good and wouldnt take him top 5. When it comes to Isaac ive seen people talk about how they would take him top 3 and before other wings like Jackson and Tatum. Then I see people say they wouldnt take him in the top 10.

Isaac has all the makings of an elite prospect IMO. Plus size, plus athleticism, solid skills, works hard, active defender and rebounder. I'm not sure yet if he is a top 3 pick, but I see no reason he can't be depending on what everyone around him does the rest of the year. I don't see him ahead of Jackson, but I definitely see him in front of Tatum at the moment.

I think he has great potential. But he has always been a very inconsistent player. I think its pretty natural to compare him to Ingram. He is about an inch taller than Ingram but Ingram has the advantage in wingspan and standing reach. I think Ingram is the more fluid athlete while Isaac is more explosive. I give Ingram the edge because of the offensive skill set. Ingram has the better handles and the more consistent jumper. Isaac was always hovering around 30% from 3. Defensively I think Ingram is the better defender out on the perimeter while Isaac is better in the post. Isaac is also only 1 month younger than Ingram so age wise their basically the same. I wouldnt take Ingram top 5 in this draft and I definitely would take Jackson and Tatum over Ingram. If Ingram was in this draft I think he would go around 7th and id take Isaac right behind him at 8th. I just dont konw how good of an offensive player Isaac is going to be. I think he and Ingram have similar ceilings but Ingram just has a higher floor. Gotta remember Isaac has yet to play against a legit good team so far this year.

reanimator · Post #88 » by **reanimator** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:49 am

Ball has "it." That top 3 of Fultz/Ball/Jackson will make a few franchises very happy.

Post #89 » by **Duke4life831** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:00 am

reanimator wrote:Ball has "it." That top 3 of Fultz/Ball/Jackson will make a few franchises very happy.

Sharp shooting tonight by him.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #90 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:41 am

I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I'm also careful about overrating college winners like Hield or Kaminsky.

Post #91 » by **Duke4life831** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:44 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I can easily see him going 16/7/11 while shooting very efficiently and playing really good defense.

Post #92 » by **Marcus** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:16 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I'm also careful about overrating college winners like Hield or Kaminsky.

Doors to the party won't be closed when you come around. Take your time.

As far as those comps. We're talking about a Freshman that has transformed this team. Wouldn't expect his numbers to pop but there's more he brings to the team than just numbers. Again a freshman with tons of hype that has been given the keys to the car and is thriving in the role without dominating the ball to do so.

Frank and Buddy were four year guys that grew into feature roles. Frank amongst a great team. Buddy being the man as a senior should have been the case.

gaspar · Post #93 » by **gaspar** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:22 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I can easily see him going 16/7/11 while shooting very efficiently and playing really good defense.

notsureifserious.jpg

SlowPaced · Post #94 » by **SlowPaced** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:05 am

gaspar wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I can easily see him going 16/7/11 while shooting very efficiently and playing really good defense.

notsureifserious.jpg

No reason not to be serious with that one. That's a Jason Kidd-esque statline and that seems to be Ball's ceiling.

Chuck Everett · Post #95 » by **Chuck Everett** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:22 am

Ball's gifts are in his ability to hopefully run a prolific offense. Let's say he has the ability to be a bigger version of Steve Nash do not simply dwell on the MVP years, because those are sort of anomaly years) with defensive ability. Well, Steve Nash, knowing what we know now, probably goes top 5 in any draft in the last 25 years.

E-Balla · Post #96 » by **E-Balla** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:24 pm

gaspar wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think I'm going to be the last one to the Ball party.

What's his NBA stat line ceiling? 12 points, 10 assists doesn't do it for me.

I can easily see him going 16/7/11 while shooting very efficiently and playing really good defense.

notsureifserious.jpg

2 3s a game = 6 points + 4 easy 2s = 8 points + 1 tough bucket = 2 points + 4 freethrows a game = 17-18 points. Doesn't sound hard to think when broken down like that. Remember Jason Kidd was able to score more with less scoring abilities. Truth is when you can pass like they do you'll find scoring opportunities. Rubio can't shoot or finish like Ball and he scored 13 points per 36 last year.

I don't think playmaking like his can be overlooked. These PGs are going to be crazy though. People are sleeping on Dennis too. His team is bad but he's showing some amazing talent coming off a major injury.

Post #97 » by **Marcus** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:55 pm

E-Balla wrote:
gaspar wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
I can easily see him going 16/7/11 while shooting very efficiently and playing really good defense.

notsureifserious.jpg

2 3s a game = 6 points + 4 easy 2s = 8 points + 1 tough bucket = 2 points + 4 freethrows a game = 17-18 points. Doesn't sound hard to think when broken down like that. Remember Jason Kidd was able to score more with less scoring abilities. Truth is when you can pass like they do you'll find scoring opportunities. Rubio can't shoot or finish like Ball and he scored 13 points per 36 last year.

I don't think playmaking like his can be overlooked. These PGs are going to be crazy though. People are sleeping on Dennis too. His team is bad but he's showing some amazing talent coming off a major injury.

Kinda scary that Dennis has gotten lost in the shuffle a bit. He still should be the first PG off the board if a team needs a franchise PG (pun intended). I'm ignoring all numbers with Dennis this year. I know what he brings to the table. I just wanted to see him to finish the season healthy. His injury takes a full two years before he's one hundred percent meaning he'll be entering the draft at full strength and that's when it's scary for the league because he looks good now.

E-Balla · Post #98 » by **E-Balla** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:40 pm

Marcus wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
gaspar wrote:notsureifserious.jpg

2 3s a game = 6 points + 4 easy 2s = 8 points + 1 tough bucket = 2 points + 4 freethrows a game = 17-18 points. Doesn't sound hard to think when broken down like that. Remember Jason Kidd was able to score more with less scoring abilities. Truth is when you can pass like they do you'll find scoring opportunities. Rubio can't shoot or finish like Ball and he scored 13 points per 36 last year.

I don't think playmaking like his can be overlooked. These PGs are going to be crazy though. People are sleeping on Dennis too. His team is bad but he's showing some amazing talent coming off a major injury.

Kinda scary that Dennis has gotten lost in the shuffle a bit. He still should be the first PG off the board if a team needs a franchise PG (pun intended). I'm ignoring all numbers with Dennis this year. I know what he brings to the table. I just wanted to see him to finish the season healthy. His injury takes a full two years before he's one hundred percent meaning he'll be entering the draft at full strength and that's when it's scary for the league because he looks good now.

See that dunk he made yesterday to end the game? He's healthy. Only issue I see is he's 25% on his jumpers. Still his comparison was Rose, Franchise (who could shoot at an average levels), and Westbrook so what you really want to see is his explosiveness and its there. .512 freethrow rate and 8 FTA a game.

HotelVitale · Post #99 » by **HotelVitale** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Chuck Everett wrote:Ball's gifts are in his ability to hopefully run a prolific offense. Let's say he has the ability to be a bigger version of Steve Nash do not simply dwell on the MVP years, because those are sort of anomaly years) with defensive ability. Well, Steve Nash, knowing what we know now, probably goes top 5 in any draft in the last 25 years.

Hard to compare folks with Nash, he had truly genius-level coordination--he was able to command his body to do incredibly difficult things with pinpoint accuracy (shooting and passing). I've never seen any bball player with his level of coordination and command (maybe Curry's closest), and nothing about Ball suggests that to me. Still seems more like a guy with solid vision and motor who right now is killing guys who are relatively small--lack of quicks, strength, and half-court game hasn't mattered yet.

We got the rest of the season to see if he's gone something like Nash's skill level/command. As a Sixers fan I'd love it if he did, just not seeing it yet.

HotelVitale · Post #100 » by **HotelVitale** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:06 pm

^Another thing I keep noticing is that Ball destroys zone defenses by finding the open man (and zones always leave at least one guy man with some space) and then getting off shots against it. Yesterday against UM he looked very good--but got almost no real assists (aside from a few entry passes that the shooter did all the work for) because there was no zone. Again, not saying he's not gonna be great, just that we haven't seen what he'd actually look like in the NBA. His transition game comes closest, and I'm mostly trying to project based on that now. (While also hoping his shot stays this consistent.)