Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread

EwingSweatsALot · Post #1581 » by **EwingSweatsALot** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:29 pm

fatlever wrote:

Read on Twitter

It doesn't matter if you make them. Only matters if you're creating those sweet obtuse and acute angles for the passing lanes.

Post #1582 » by **fatlever** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:10 pm

Hornets twitter/blogger community has had enough of Frank. I think last night was the breaking point for many as we watched Frank have another awful night on both ends, matched up vs smaller players, while Clifford refuses to adjust and take Frank out for a smaller player.

Read on Twitter

catch20two · Post #1583 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:48 pm

Don't worry. Clifford will still give him 25-30 minutes next game and he'll get a pass for his 2-15 shooting by many on the board because he contributed in other ways like 5 rebounds and 4 assist with low turnovers.

Post #1584 » by **JDR720** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:57 pm

give wood some burn. he was ok in philly i think

Post #1585 » by **JDR720** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:00 pm

might need to hire a team firefighter first tho

Post #1586 » by **yosemiteben** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:03 pm

fatlever wrote:

Read on Twitter

Kind of the wrong stat to use if you want to criticize Frank. ESPN classifies him as a C and he's ranked 33rd out of 69 Cs by RPM. His ORPM is actually 13th among C's, and he has a positive DRPM, unlike guys like WCS and KAT.

His shooting slump is getting troubling, but it's pretty crazy that he's still maintaining a positive net rating. I do think it's worthwhile to consider his on/off stats in light of these criticisms though to get a more holistic picture of his impact. I looked up on/off stats (not perfect, I know) for Frank split by full season, November, and December:

Spoiler:

Observations - for as much as Frank may be slumping in his shooting percentages, we continue to play better and in particular to have a more efficient offense when he is on the floor compared to when he is off it. This is true both in November and December. I was surprised to see that in December Frank's on/off impact on our DRTG is basically neutral. I was also surprised to see a positive net rating on / off differential in December, as that conflicts a bit with my eye test.

The biggest surprising positive is the fact that we have done such a better job limiting TOs in December with Frank on the floor compared to when he's off.

The biggest red flag to me is the way that we have rebounded in December with him on the floor.

catch20two · Post #1587 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:26 pm

Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

catch20two · Post #1588 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:26 pm

WE DON'T PLAY BETTER WITH FRANK ON THE FLOOR.

Post #1589 » by **fatlever** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:03 pm

catch20two wrote:Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

Here's a crazy wrinkle

5-man lineups with 6th and 7th most minutes this year are basically same, one with Frank, one with Marvin.

N.Batum, M.Belinelli, F.Kaminsky, K.Walker, C.Zeller 49 minutes 141.4OTRG 113.3DTRG 28.1NET
N.Batum, M.Belinelli, K.Walker, M.Williams, C.Zeller 38 minutes 96.6OTRG 117.7DTRG -21.1NET

Seems there is always some stat that makes Frank look good, even when he looks terrible.

Last 10 games he has the 2nd highest NET rating on the team. That is despite being so awful during the past 5 games where he has the worst NET rating among the 10 rotation players. Go figure.

Regardless, I don't need any stats to tell me what I've been seeing the last few games. It's not good.

Post #1590 » by **BigSlam** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:23 pm

fatlever wrote:
catch20two wrote:Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

Here's a crazy wrinkle

5-man lineups with 6th and 7th most minutes this year are basically same, one with Frank, one with Marvin.

N.Batum, M.Belinelli, F.Kaminsky, K.Walker, C.Zeller 49 minutes 141.4OTRG 113.3DTRG 28.1NET
N.Batum, M.Belinelli, K.Walker, M.Williams, C.Zeller 38 minutes 96.6OTRG 117.7DTRG -21.1NET

Seems there is always some stat that makes Frank look good, even when he looks terrible.

Last 10 games he has the 2nd highest NET rating on the team. That is despite being so awful during the past 5 games where he has the worst NET rating among the 10 rotation players. Go figure.

Regardless, I don't need any stats to tell me what I've been seeing the last few games. It's not good.

Feel-o-meter for the win.

Screw misleading and skewed stats.

The feel-o-meter never lets us down.

"BBMF'ers"

catch20two · Post #1591 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:36 pm

fatlever wrote:
catch20two wrote:Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

Here's a crazy wrinkle

5-man lineups with 6th and 7th most minutes this year are basically same, one with Frank, one with Marvin.

N.Batum, M.Belinelli, F.Kaminsky, K.Walker, C.Zeller 49 minutes 141.4OTRG 113.3DTRG 28.1NET
N.Batum, M.Belinelli, K.Walker, M.Williams, C.Zeller 38 minutes 96.6OTRG 117.7DTRG -21.1NET

Seems there is always some stat that makes Frank look good, even when he looks terrible.

Last 10 games he has the 2nd highest NET rating on the team. That is despite being so awful during the past 5 games where he has the worst NET rating among the 10 rotation players. Go figure.

Regardless, I don't need any stats to tell me what I've been seeing the last few games. It's not good.

Difficult for me to believe in a wrinkle where we're scoring at a 141 OFFRTG rate without thinking small sample size because there's no way in hell we continue to score at that rate even if we threw LeBron in there.

amcoolio · Post #1592 » by **amcoolio** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:38 pm

That's funny, because I feel when Frank is on the court, no matter how bad he is, the team is more dialed in and smooth. Maybe Cliff thinks that way as well?

catch20two · Post #1593 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Looking at all of these skewed advanced stats and I notice that Belly is consistently in the negative. His defense must be the reality of what people tried to make Lamb's defense out to be.

catch20two · Post #1594 » by **catch20two** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:12 pm

NBA.com stats are showing me that Frank has a -5.8 net rating over the past 5 games. WORST AMONG ROTATION PLAYERS.

The off court stats show that we are +7.6 with him off the floor the past 5 games. WORST AMONG ALL PLAYERS.

Therefore the eye test supports how bad he's actually been of late.

------------------

Shameless plug but we are -2.9 with Lamb off the floor and +3.0 with Marco off the floor.

Batum has been pretty bad the past 5 games too.

Mystical Apples · Post #1595 » by **Mystical Apples** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:23 pm

catch20two wrote:NBA.com stats are showing me that Frank has a -5.8 net rating over the past 5 games. WORST AMONG ROTATION PLAYERS.

The off court stats show that we are +7.6 with him off the floor the past 5 games. WORST AMONG ALL PLAYERS.

Therefore the eye test supports how bad he's actually been of late.

------------------

Shameless plug but we are -2.9 with Lamb off the floor and +3.0 with Marco off the floor.

Batum has been pretty bad the past 5 games too.

How'd he do in 3rd quarters on Tuesdays?

Mystical Apples · Post #1596 » by **Mystical Apples** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:38 pm

fatlever wrote:
catch20two wrote:Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

Here's a crazy wrinkle

5-man lineups with 6th and 7th most minutes this year are basically same, one with Frank, one with Marvin.

N.Batum, M.Belinelli, F.Kaminsky, K.Walker, C.Zeller 49 minutes 141.4OTRG 113.3DTRG 28.1NET
N.Batum, M.Belinelli, K.Walker, M.Williams, C.Zeller 38 minutes 96.6OTRG 117.7DTRG -21.1NET

Seems there is always some stat that makes Frank look good, even when he looks terrible.

Last 10 games he has the 2nd highest NET rating on the team. That is despite being so awful during the past 5 games where he has the worst NET rating among the 10 rotation players. Go figure.

Regardless, I don't need any stats to tell me what I've been seeing the last few games. It's not good.

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful drug.

amcoolio · Post #1597 » by **amcoolio** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:06 pm

fatlever wrote:Hornets twitter/blogger community has had enough of Frank. I think last night was the breaking point for many as we watched Frank have another awful night on both ends, matched up vs smaller players, while Clifford refuses to adjust and take Frank out for a smaller player.

Just

GlenRiceARoni · Post #1598 » by **GlenRiceARoni** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:16 pm

catch20two wrote:Frank's on/off stats are benefited in the off court category due to Clifford's insistence on playing the Hawes-Hibbert front court that has been disastrous.

A better way of measuring it is looking at the discrepancy of the starting unit with Frank on the court vs with Marv on the court.

Frank at PF with the starters is a -3.2 net rating (99.3 OFFRTG, 102.5 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played together the 2nd most minutes of any lineup this season.

Marv at PF with the starters is a +13.1 net rating (107.5 OFFRTG, 94.4 DEFRTG) and that lineup has played the most minutes of any lineup this season.

That's a difference of -15.9 with Frank on the court instead of Marv.

Ned, Ned Ryerson? Bing!

You nailed it

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

Mystical Apples · Post #1599 » by **Mystical Apples** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:56 pm

Basketball twitter isn't the best place if independent thought is the goal. We all have biases but Twitter is inherently built on seeking approval and confirmation. Real-time it's even lazier and sometimes downright gross.

catch20two · Post #1600 » by **catch20two** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:00 am

The only thing downright gross is Frank's inefficiency.