Knicks not ruling out DRose extension later in the season

[Meat]

I'd love to return both of Rose & Jennings as our PG duo. Take last game for example, Rose started our momentum & Jennings closed it out. They're a dynamic duo.

And i strongly agree about continuing to build on what we have.

Rose. Lee. Anthony. Porzingis. Noah. Jennings. O'Quinn. Holiday. Kuzminskas. Hernangomez.

That could very well be our 10 man core moving forward.

Can you imagine this team if we were to upgrade with another two players over Ndour & Vujacic both through the draft (1st rounder) and Free Agency?

We could literally be 12 deep before you know it. With Porzingis becoming a down right star we have unlimited potential.

if that's the core
1) no money for free agency
2) it'll be a late teens 1st rounder. not exactly a slam dunk
3) noah....

its why I keep saying the future is bright. As long as Phil manages the cap responsibly, adds pieces that fit going forward. Also not worried about having a high draft pick because, I'm hoping Phil will continue to mine the Euroleauge for more gems like Kuz and Willy. We you can sign Young PROFESSIONAL like this without using a pick, its a win win.

kutz isnt young, and that core is a 2nd round exit at best.

[F N 11]

He has said that he wants to retire a Knick. If so, I hope it's not just posturing and actually a willingness to take less money to stay here. Maybe even include an incentivized contract based on number of games played per season. That would be a good deal for both Rose and the Knicks.

He talks about money and stability a lot. We'll see. If he takes a pay cut that really shows what he's about.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

He has said that he wants to retire a Knick. If so, I hope it's not just posturing and actually a willingness to take less money to stay here. Maybe even include an incentivized contract based on number of games played per season. That would be a good deal for both Rose and the Knicks.

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

Agreed. There is no way he would agree to a deal based on his health. Also, with the cap increases, it's very unlikely he'd take a paycut from what he's currently making, especially with the type of money other guys will be getting this summer.

[misterfrazier10]

He has said that he wants to retire a Knick. If so, I hope it's not just posturing and actually a willingness to take less money to stay here. Maybe even include an incentivized contract based on number of games played per season. That would be a good deal for both Rose and the Knicks.

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

I get the pessimism but it'd be a very pleasant surprise and maybe a culture change indication. Some successful pro teams have resigned players for less money.

[NBA Fan 1234]

He has said that he wants to retire a Knick. If so, I hope it's not just posturing and actually a willingness to take less money to stay here. Maybe even include an incentivized contract based on number of games played per season. That would be a good deal for both Rose and the Knicks.

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

I get the pessimism but it'd be a very pleasant surprise and maybe a culture change indication. Some successful pro teams have resigned players for less money.

Can you provide an example of an injury prone player in his mid-late twenties who took less money (I won't even ask for an incentive based contract example).

Spoiler:

There are none. I wrote a law journal article/note on protecting interests in the NBA/NFL by preventing future lockouts, and part of the note was on player contracts.

It's not pessimism, it's having a realistic outlook based on history. Now, can Rose be the first guy to do this? Absolutely. However, after saying this

“I’ve been moved on,” Rose said. “This whole summer I had tunnel vision. My mindset was just making sure that I was working out every day, and spending as much time as possible with my son (P.J.). And focusing on those two things. Making sure my family is financially stable, as far as seeing all the money that they’re passing out in this league. Just telling the truth. Just knowing that my day will be coming up soon, and it’s not for me. It’s for P.J. and his future, so that’s what I’m thinking about right now.’“I’m preparing for it.’’
Asked a follow-up question later, Rose emphasized that he wants his future to be in Chicago but indicated his mind is on getting his fair share of cash in a changing financial landscape in which a massive influx of TV money is leading to rising player salaries.
“Here, it’s here,” Rose said of where he wants to play. “But when you talk about that much money, the only thing you can do is prepare for it. I’m trying to prepare, not only myself, but my family. And I’m doing this all for my son. Like I said, I’m thinking about his future. Even though we’re all right, we’re comfortable, when you talk about that x-amount of dollars, I think it raises everyone’s eyebrows, so there’s nothing wrong with being over-prepared.’’

I'd bet the odds are stacked heavily against this happening.

**The quote is from preseason 2015 with the Bulls.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/bulls-derrick-rose-is-already-looking-toward-his-2017-free-agency/

[Capn'O]

If the Knicks re-sign Rose it will be for a lot of money. Ideally, not the full number of years.

[misterfrazier10]

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

I get the pessimism but it'd be a very pleasant surprise and maybe a culture change indication. Some successful pro teams have resigned players for less money.

Can you provide an example of an injury prone player in his mid-late twenties who took less money (I won't even ask for an incentive based contract example).

Spoiler:

There are none. I wrote a law journal article/note on protecting interests in the NBA/NFL by preventing future lockouts, and part of the note was on player contracts.

It's not pessimism, it's having a realistic outlook based on history. Now, can Rose be the first guy to do this? Absolutely. However, after saying this

“I’ve been moved on,” Rose said. “This whole summer I had tunnel vision. My mindset was just making sure that I was working out every day, and spending as much time as possible with my son (P.J.). And focusing on those two things. Making sure my family is financially stable, as far as seeing all the money that they’re passing out in this league. Just telling the truth. Just knowing that my day will be coming up soon, and it’s not for me. It’s for P.J. and his future, so that’s what I’m thinking about right now.’“I’m preparing for it.’’
Asked a follow-up question later, Rose emphasized that he wants his future to be in Chicago but indicated his mind is on getting his fair share of cash in a changing financial landscape in which a massive influx of TV money is leading to rising player salaries.
“Here, it’s here,” Rose said of where he wants to play. “But when you talk about that much money, the only thing you can do is prepare for it. I’m trying to prepare, not only myself, but my family. And I’m doing this all for my son. Like I said, I’m thinking about his future. Even though we’re all right, we’re comfortable, when you talk about that x-amount of dollars, I think it raises everyone’s eyebrows, so there’s nothing wrong with being over-prepared.’’

I'd bet the odds are stacked heavily against this happening.

**The quote is from preseason 2015 with the Bulls.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/bulls-derrick-rose-is-already-looking-toward-his-2017-free-agency/

Yes I see. Your point is that it'd be unprecedented. Okay but maybe he can change his mind or be persuaded otherwise, unless you think the whole idea is not only not realistic but just plain dumb as well?

[magnumt]

Love Jennings' quote from this:

He's really endearing himself here.

As of right now tho, he's better with the 2nd Unit. As are we as a team.

IF we don't retain Rose, I'd like to go after Jrue Holiday and then CP3 if Jrue doesn't sign. Either with Jennings would be AWESOME next year.

Thoughts?

--Mags

CP3 or Holiday would obviously be amazing gets. I'd prefer either of them individually to Rose but what I've gathered from the Rose Extension thread is we don't have the resources to get one of them and retain Jennings (or Justin H for that matter). Best thing, imo, would be for Rose to continue his recent good play and stay healthy so we can just go over the cap with various rights. Variables out of our control... but if all goes well with him then we have more options if we don't have to renounce anyone.

Moving one (or both) of Noah/LT would give you an additional $7-$25 million to work with.

It's definitely doable, but will take some maneuvering and convincing from all sides.

With Jrue, you can convince him of:

- The bigger stage (he last played in a big city during College IIRC)
- A stud big man again (KP)
- A better supporting cast
- TOP care for wife (Sloan-Kettering Memorial Cancer)
- Chance to play with his brother again (Justin)
- A more free, Guard friendly Coach (Hornacek)

Say we get him to take a back-loaded contract starting at $25 Million, that would leave about anywhere from $12 Million to $23 Million for Jennings (depending on if we move one, or both of Noah/LT).

--Mags

[NBA Fan 1234]

I get the pessimism but it'd be a very pleasant surprise and maybe a culture change indication. Some successful pro teams have resigned players for less money.

Can you provide an example of an injury prone player in his mid-late twenties who took less money (I won't even ask for an incentive based contract example).

Spoiler:

There are none. I wrote a law journal article/note on protecting interests in the NBA/NFL by preventing future lockouts, and part of the note was on player contracts.

It's not pessimism, it's having a realistic outlook based on history. Now, can Rose be the first guy to do this? Absolutely. However, after saying this

“I’ve been moved on,” Rose said. “This whole summer I had tunnel vision. My mindset was just making sure that I was working out every day, and spending as much time as possible with my son (P.J.). And focusing on those two things. Making sure my family is financially stable, as far as seeing all the money that they’re passing out in this league. Just telling the truth. Just knowing that my day will be coming up soon, and it’s not for me. It’s for P.J. and his future, so that’s what I’m thinking about right now.’“I’m preparing for it.’’
Asked a follow-up question later, Rose emphasized that he wants his future to be in Chicago but indicated his mind is on getting his fair share of cash in a changing financial landscape in which a massive influx of TV money is leading to rising player salaries.
“Here, it’s here,” Rose said of where he wants to play. “But when you talk about that much money, the only thing you can do is prepare for it. I’m trying to prepare, not only myself, but my family. And I’m doing this all for my son. Like I said, I’m thinking about his future. Even though we’re all right, we’re comfortable, when you talk about that x-amount of dollars, I think it raises everyone’s eyebrows, so there’s nothing wrong with being over-prepared.’’

I'd bet the odds are stacked heavily against this happening.

**The quote is from preseason 2015 with the Bulls.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/bulls-derrick-rose-is-already-looking-toward-his-2017-free-agency/

Yes I see. Your point is that it'd be unprecedented. Okay but maybe he can change his mind or be persuaded otherwise, unless you think the whole idea is not only not realistic but just plain dumb as well?

What idea? Offering him an incentive based contract? Well, seeing as I don't want Rose back at all, yes, I do think it'd be a bad idea. However, if we are going to bring him back, that is the only logical way to do it (aside from 1+team options). The thing is, it doesn't matter what the team wants - it matters what Rose wants. Based on his previous comments and, again, this never happening before, I'd bet there is no chance he would even consider a deal like that.

So, if we are going to bring him back does it makes sense to offer him a contract that is either heavily incentive based or 1+team options? Absolutely. Is it stupid from the point that he will never accept such a deal? Absolutely.

**Edit -- I should note that I like the outside-the-box thinking. It's not a bad idea, it's just never going to happen.

[misterfrazier10]

He has said that he wants to retire a Knick. If so, I hope it's not just posturing and actually a willingness to take less money to stay here. Maybe even include an incentivized contract based on number of games played per season. That would be a good deal for both Rose and the Knicks.

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

Agreed. There is no way he would agree to a deal based on his health. Also, with the cap increases, it's very unlikely he'd take a paycut from what he's currently making, especially with the type of money other guys will be getting this summer.

So you must have already resigned yourself to him not staying?

[misterfrazier10]

Can you provide an example of an injury prone player in his mid-late twenties who took less money (I won't even ask for an incentive based contract example).

Spoiler:

There are none. I wrote a law journal article/note on protecting interests in the NBA/NFL by preventing future lockouts, and part of the note was on player contracts.

It's not pessimism, it's having a realistic outlook based on history. Now, can Rose be the first guy to do this? Absolutely. However, after saying this

I'd bet the odds are stacked heavily against this happening.

**The quote is from preseason 2015 with the Bulls.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/bulls-derrick-rose-is-already-looking-toward-his-2017-free-agency/

Yes I see. Your point is that it'd be unprecedented. Okay but maybe he can change his mind or be persuaded otherwise, unless you think the whole idea is not only not realistic but just plain dumb as well?

What idea? Offering him an incentive based contract? Well, seeing as I don't want Rose back at all, yes, I do think it'd be a bad idea. However, if we are going to bring him back, that is the only logical way to do it (aside from 1+team options). The thing is, it doesn't matter what the team wants - it matters what Rose wants. Based on his previous comments and, again, this never happening before, I'd bet there is no chance he would even consider a deal like that.

So, if we are going to bring him back does it makes sense to offer him a contract that is either heavily incentive based or 1+team options? Absolutely. Is it stupid from the point that he will never accept such a deal? Absolutely.

**Edit -- I should note that I like the outside-the-box thinking. It's not a bad idea, it's just never going to happen.

Ok got it. I'm not that vested in his return because I don't see the team playing as a unit with him and he has a big role in that. Plus I really really don't like his transition or team defense. But I thought there may be a chance that he'd change into a guy who helps in a more gluey way. I have higher hopes for Melo as that guy. Plus I keep on thinking that they'll acquire a hidden gem point guard in the summer anyway.

[NYKAL]

if that's the core
1) no money for free agency
2) it'll be a late teens 1st rounder. not exactly a slam dunk
3) noah....

its why I keep saying the future is bright. As long as Phil manages the cap responsibly, adds pieces that fit going forward. Also not worried about having a high draft pick because, I'm hoping Phil will continue to mine the Euroleauge for more gems like Kuz and Willy. We you can sign Young PROFESSIONAL like this without using a pick, its a win win.

kutz isnt young, and that core is a 2nd round exit at best.

I consider any player below 30young

[DOT]

Here's the way I look at our point guard problem. According to Sportrac.com, theses players are point guards up for free agency next year
Rose
Curry
Holiday
Williams
Teague
Hill
Calderon
Livingston
Collison
Jennings
Mills
Burke(RFA)
Brooks
Carter-Williams
Shelvin Mack
Felton
Udrih
John Lucas III
Lawson
Brian Roberts
Jonathan Gibson(RFA)
Lowry
Paul

So, lets split them into categories:

Players who aren't coming here
Curry
Hill
Burke
Gibson
Paul
Lowry

Players who will command the same price (or higher) as Rose but could come here
Rose
Holiday
Teague
Mills

Which leaves us with
Williams
Calderon
Livingston
Collison
Jennings
Brooks
MCW
Mack
Felton
Udrih
Lucas
Lawson
Roberts
Who will all command less than Rose, but none are really starting quality

So really, the debate is between Rose, Holiday, Teague, and Mills for starter, and one of the others (probably Jennings) as a backup.

My personal opinions on these players:
Rose
+we know what he is at this point
+definitely has chemistry with Melo
+one more year of experience with this team would make him better with us next year
-health concerns
-needs to develop his jumpshot
-needs to set up other players more

Holiday
+2 years younger than Rose
+better defender
+better shooter
+better at running an offense
-I'm more concerned about his health than Rose's
-Pelicans will throw all the money at him, which would include a 5th year, which we cannot match

Teague
+has been on quality teams
+can run an offense
+good shooter
-really bad defensively
-has a really punchable face

Mills
+good shooter
+superb system player (can thrive in a system without being #1)
+Spurs player
-Is he starter quality?
-would he fit with our system?
-might not be able to pry him from San Antonio, but I don't know

My plan would be to get Patty Mills and re-sign Jennings, but Livingston, Mack, and Collison are all intriguing and realistic options for us. As much as I do think Holiday is a solid point guard, I don't see that much improvement from Rose to him, and his injury history is just as offputting, but this is a moot point because we probably wouldn't be able to get him anyways

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

An incentive based deal for a player who has a history of being injured is a terrible idea for the player. Also, players always say they "want to stay" where they currently are playing - it's always posturing. In the end, money talks.

Agreed. There is no way he would agree to a deal based on his health. Also, with the cap increases, it's very unlikely he'd take a paycut from what he's currently making, especially with the type of money other guys will be getting this summer.

So you must have already resigned yourself to him not staying?

No, I've resigned myself to the low probability of him taking a paycut, and the extremely low probability of him agreeing to a deal with health-based incentives.

He could stay if the Knicks sign him to an extension that would pay him more than his current annual salary of $21 million, or the Knicks could re-sign him for more this off-season.

[misterfrazier10]

Agreed. There is no way he would agree to a deal based on his health. Also, with the cap increases, it's very unlikely he'd take a paycut from what he's currently making, especially with the type of money other guys will be getting this summer.

So you must have already resigned yourself to him not staying?

No, I've resigned myself to the low probability of him taking a paycut, and the extremely low probability of him agreeing to a deal with health-based incentives.

He could stay if the Knicks sign him to an extension that would pay him more than his current annual salary of $21 million, or the Knicks could re-sign him for more this off-season.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you want Rose to stay and also get paid more than maybe he is worth or perhaps you think he is worth the risk of paying him what he wants/market will bear? I just don't see that happening as long as Jackson is in control and not the owner.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

So you must have already resigned yourself to him not staying?

No, I've resigned myself to the low probability of him taking a paycut, and the extremely low probability of him agreeing to a deal with health-based incentives.

He could stay if the Knicks sign him to an extension that would pay him more than his current annual salary of $21 million, or the Knicks could re-sign him for more this off-season.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you want Rose to stay and also get paid more than maybe he is worth or perhaps you think he is worth the risk of paying him what he wants/market will bear? I just don't see that happening as long as Jackson is in control and not the owner.

No, that's not what I want. I don't want us to overpay for him, though I am not convinced that Phil won't do so.

[misterfrazier10]

No, I've resigned myself to the low probability of him taking a paycut, and the extremely low probability of him agreeing to a deal with health-based incentives.

He could stay if the Knicks sign him to an extension that would pay him more than his current annual salary of $21 million, or the Knicks could re-sign him for more this off-season.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you want Rose to stay and also get paid more than maybe he is worth or perhaps you think he is worth the risk of paying him what he wants/market will bear? I just don't see that happening as long as Jackson is in control and not the owner.

No, that's not what I want. I don't want us to overpay for him, though I am not convinced that Phil won't do so.

Well the fact he offered Melo the max and a no-trade makes me wonder if he'll do the same for Rose but I think Jackson has more leverage here than he did with Melo. You are not as sure about that. Hopefully he makes the right decision and deal that works best for Knicks. That would be a change for the better both now and the future.

[blanko]

We better not give him more than 3 years


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[NYKMentality85]

As i stated within the postgame thread, the Knicks are 1-3 (pretty much 1-4) without Derrick Rose this year.

Rose improves this team so much. Especially with Jennings being able to run with our backup unit.

The attacking, scoring & driving ability from Rose (as a PG) is something this fan base has not witnessed in quite some time. It's a breath of fresh air to have an NBA trio of Rose, Melo & K.P. They combined for 80 points tonight.

Rose was big time during his return tonight. I really missed this dude during his absence. 24 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds and 2 blocked shots off of 9/18 from the field (.500%). And there's just something about D.Rose & the 4th quarter. He came to life (yet again) with 11 4th quarter points.

He also had a team high 7 Free Throw attempts (6/7) due to his ability to blow past defender's one on one, split the defense and attack/drive to the rim (at ease/at will).

Was such a good feeling to see Rose out there and back in action. Back spasm flare ups aside 2016 was the 1st time in (i believe) 6 years since Rose played the 1st 20 games of an NBA season. Great to have him back.

[blanko]

The real question is this: is Phil going to keep on bidding against himself? He did it with Noah. But since he was smart enough to let Gallow walk, let's hope this was one time mistake


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