Is West Trash (so far)?

[FNQ]

I've watched many Clippers games this season. Their commentators said he lost 10-20 pounds this summer. Given he signed early July, he probably looked like **** overweight at the beginning of FA.

This sorts of explains his better production with the Clippers this season, and why not many suitors.

As much as I don't think Speights is all that good, he is a great bargain at min, fat or slim.

Speights is weird as hell.. when he first signed with us he was a chubkins too. He does everything backwards. You are supposed to slim down in free agency, not get fatter. You're supposed to play close to the rim, not away from it. You're supposed to block shots, not take charges.

I feel terrible for his HS coaches.. they for sure have drinking problems now

[turk3d]

You see who my avy is (and has been for a while) so I probably appreciated Mo as much or as more than anyone around here. However, I say that he wasn't a good fit around here, and mainly because I do not believe he was a guy who Kerr didn't appreciate (just not kerr's kind of player).

Too inconsistent and too low of a BBIQ for Kerr's liking. And as far as Mo taking so little to play with the Clips, that was pretty dumb on his part. Him leaving though, had a lot to do with him getting more pt somewhere else.

Most of you probably don't know this, but Mo averaged just 12.4, 15.9 and 11.6 mpg respectively in the 3 seasons he was with us. I think the money had nothing to do with his departure and I also believe that Kerr was fine with that.

Mo (since Kerr exclusively played him at the 5) had to get behind Bogut, Ezeli and Dray when they all were healthy. He's so far averaging 15.8 with the Clips and has a chance to average even more.

He may feel he has something to prove as far as Kerr and some fans are concerned. I guess you don't remember all the lambasting of Mo on this board over the years, well I do. Many times he got the AV treatment.

[FNQ]

He got bad treatment his rookie year because he was a fatty who's shot was off pretty much all season. Years 2 + 3 he was very solid, and I wish he was still here. He'd be getting 20mpg for sure.

[turk3d]

He got bad treatment his rookie year because he was a fatty who's shot was off pretty much all season. Years 2 + 3 he was very solid, and I wish he was still here. He'd be getting 20mpg for sure.

Like I said, I really don't think that he was a guy who Kerr appreciated too much for the reasons mentioned. And yes, he did get it from this board whenever he made a bonehead play, of which he still did last year. Also when he'd come in and start chucking and it didn't go in that usually didn't go over too well. No doubt he was a character but he's a guy I wouldn't mind having around if some sort of an altercation took place and he was on my side. One thing many probably don't know about the dude, he's as tough as nails (may be too dumb to be scared of anyone, lol).

[likashing]

***all data from nba.com stats, bbref, and nbawowy as of Dec 14 morning***

Several people here have praised Speights' greatly increased rebound rate this season. Notably his def reb% is now 25.8% compared to 19.8% last season with us.

I have watched many Clippers' games this season, and he did not impress me as "controlling the defensive board". And the Clippers didn't look that great on the defensive glass when he was on the court. So I wondered why, and started looking at contested rebounds and his on-court team dreb%.



1) His dreb% is 25.8% this season, actually +30% better than last season

2) His contested dreb/min is slightly better than last season at +10%

3) His un-contested (empty) dreb/min is +21% better than last season.

4) His team still def rebound badly with him on the court... 73.6%... similar as last season. 73.6% dreb% is actually *worse* than the #30 dreb team this season - the Knicks at 74.0%

5) His contested rebound/min is actually *lower* than David West - who many here believe is a worse rebounder than Mo

6) West's on-court team dreb% is 77.4%, *way* ahead of Mo when both play at center.

My conclusion is Mo's rebounding prowess is not as good as his 25.8% dreb shows. He got many more empty rebounds this season because he plays a lot with Crawford, Felton, and Rivers (low dreb% players), compared to Livingston/Iguodala/Barbosa/Barnes.

It is true that he is getting 10% more contested def rebounds per min, which is a positive thing. But his team still gets pounded on the offensive glass like worse than the worst def rebounding team when he is at center.

Mo's defensive rebounding prowess and his improvement in it is overrated. Myth busted.

[gold0259]

He is very unselfish..plays withing himself..and has a nice left hand. For what he makes, I don't think you could replace his output for what he produces.

[FNQ]

Mo's defensive rebounding prowess and his improvement in it is overrated. Myth busted.

There is a middle ground between rebound rate and team rebound rate. Neither one defines entirely how well a rebounder does without the other. But its funny that you went in on him for rebounding when he actually has improved it because his team needs it more - low rebound % guys as you pointed out - including Brandon Bass, PF, who's at 9.5%. Seriously, 9.5% rebrate. Hard to be an offensive rebounder when you are also one of the primary scorers off the bench for his team, and is mainly perimeter based.

At the end of the day, he's improved his rebounding and scoring in LA. And thats all anyone said, not that he became this rebounding maven. You've ground the ax against Speights into a nub already. He's improved on what he did here. There's no denying that. How he plays is more necessary there than here, and West fills a non-scoring role fine.

[FNQ]

He got bad treatment his rookie year because he was a fatty who's shot was off pretty much all season. Years 2 + 3 he was very solid, and I wish he was still here. He'd be getting 20mpg for sure.

Like I said, I really don't think that he was a guy who Kerr appreciated too much for the reasons mentioned. And yes, he did get it from this board whenever he made a bonehead play, of which he still did last year. Also when he'd come in and start chucking and it didn't go in that usually didn't go over too well. No doubt he was a character but he's a guy I wouldn't mind having around if some sort of an altercation took place and he was on my side. One thing many probably don't know about the dude, he's as tough as nails (may be too dumb to be scared of anyone, lol).

His bonehead plays were awesome though.. he was like a big, gumpy Mike Tyson type. I'm glad he's enjoying success, even with a rival

[likashing]

Mo's defensive rebounding prowess and his improvement in it is overrated. Myth busted.

There is a middle ground between rebound rate and team rebound rate. Neither one defines entirely how well a rebounder does without the other. But its funny that you went in on him for rebounding when he actually has improved it because his team needs it more - low rebound % guys as you pointed out - including Brandon Bass, PF, who's at 9.5%. Seriously, 9.5% rebrate. Hard to be an offensive rebounder when you are also one of the primary scorers off the bench for his team, and is mainly perimeter based.

At the end of the day, he's improved his rebounding and scoring in LA. And thats all anyone said, not that he became this rebounding maven. You've ground the ax against Speights into a nub already. He's improved on what he did here. There's no denying that. How he plays is more necessary there than here, and West fills a non-scoring role fine.

Sorry I busted your bubble about Mo's rebounding.

Not grinding an axe against him. Just trying to find out whether he is actually a great rebounder like you and others praised and the truth came out.

The rebound was going to fall on his mole while the opponents, Crawford/Felton/Rivers are all gone. He catches those. You count those as improvement. Sure.

dreb% is just the 1st step to analyse a rebounder.

I agree he's a good deal at min.

[FNQ]

Just trying to find out whether he is actually a great rebounder like you and others praised and the truth came out.

Scanning thread..

"he's raised his rebrate"
"Mo was always a solid rebounder"
"I feel like Mo is completely under-rated by many, and also many GM's. Which is stupid if you look at his rebounding rate and scoring rate"

Myth: I and others praised Mo as a great rebounder

[likashing]

Just trying to find out whether he is actually a great rebounder like you and others praised and the truth came out.

Scanning thread..

"he's raised his rebrate"
"Mo was always a solid rebounder"
"I feel like Mo is completely under-rated by many, and also many GM's. Which is stupid if you look at his rebounding rate and scoring rate"

Myth: I and others praised Mo as a great rebounder

rebrate is pretty useless if you don't understand it in context.

Suggest you actually watch the Clippers instead of looking at rebrate.

I misunderstood then. Nobody ever said Speights is a great rebounder.

Luckily he's not playing 20mpg for us this season.

[FNQ]

Just trying to find out whether he is actually a great rebounder like you and others praised and the truth came out.

Scanning thread..

"he's raised his rebrate"
"Mo was always a solid rebounder"
"I feel like Mo is completely under-rated by many, and also many GM's. Which is stupid if you look at his rebounding rate and scoring rate"

Myth: I and others praised Mo as a great rebounder

rebrate is pretty useless if you don't understand it in context.

Suggest you actually watch the Clippers instead of looking at rebrate.

I misunderstood then. Nobody ever said Speights is a great rebounder.

Luckily he's not playing 20mpg for us this season.

Understand how to evaluate rebounders, I havent said anything except that his rate has gone up and he's always been solid. The fact that he's improved in contested rebounds kinda proves he has gotten better at rebounding, as his OREB has always been lackluster due to him shooting a ton from the perimeter, and his team rebound rate is terrible because of quite possibly the worst bench rebounding unit in the league.

Yes, lucky we can't have a guy who's trouncing all our backups in RPM playing 20mpg. There's no room for that here, our big man rotation is perfect just the way it is.

[likashing]

Yes, lucky we can't have a guy who's trouncing all our backups in RPM playing 20mpg. There's no room for that here, our big man rotation is perfect just the way it is.

Talking about RPM, isn't it an adjustment of raw +/-?

I have also been wondering about the Clips' RPM. Mo plays most of the minutes (81%-95%) with Crawford, Rivers, and Felton. His raw +/- is way below Crawford, and about the same as Rivers at 0/+0.5.

However, his RPM is the highest at +1.54, while all his friends are -1.0 and below. How did he take all the raw +/- from guys he plays 81%-95% of his minutes with?

player, raw +/-, RPM
Crawford, +2.9, -1.0
Mo, +0.5, +1.54
Rivers, 0.0, -2.42
Felton, -1.7, -1.3

A related question is why is Klay's RPM low like -0.12 this season, despite being #2 on raw +/- on the team. Did RPM's *adjustment* just decided Klay's great on-court +/- is due to KD/Draymond/Steph (Klay plays 70%-82% of his minutes with these guys)?

I like RPM like you do. It is just sometimes confusing.

[FNQ]

Yes, lucky we can't have a guy who's trouncing all our backups in RPM playing 20mpg. There's no room for that here, our big man rotation is perfect just the way it is.

Talking about RPM, isn't it an adjustment of raw +/-?

I have also been wondering about the Clips' RPM. Mo plays most of the minutes (81%-95%) with Crawford, Rivers, and Felton. His raw +/- is way below Crawford, and about the same as Rivers at 0/+0.5.

However, his RPM is the highest at +1.54, while all his friends are -1.0 and below. How did he take all the raw +/- from guys he plays 81%-95% of his minutes with?

player, raw +/-, RPM
Crawford, +2.9, -1.0
Mo, +0.5, +1.54
Rivers, 0.0, -2.42
Felton, -1.7, -1.3

A related question is why is Klay's RPM low like -0.12 this season, despite being #2 on raw +/- on the team. Did RPM's *adjustment* just decided Klay's great on-court +/- is due to KD/Draymond/Steph (Klay plays 70%-82% of his minutes with these guys)?

I like RPM like you do. It is just sometimes confusing.

RPM from xRAPM from RAPM.. its evolved so much that its hard to keep up how Jeremiah has edited it at this point. But technically you could call it an adjustment.. but really its multiple adjustments based on algorithms and cross-referenced with other players adjustments from raw +/- based on algorithms.

But to answer about Klay, in short, yes. But previously RPM also based performance on the year prior too. And I'm unsure if they still do that. I do know that Jeremiah was fiddling with a version of RAPM (this is 3+years ago) that would use the prior year's RAPM for reference but wouldnt let it factor into the current years.. not sure if RPM is that, or if that was xRAPM, or if he ever even started it.

[turk3d]

Mo is a "good" rebounder imo, but not great. No need to exaggerate. Like him or not, he was always good for some comic relief. Nowwe have Shaqtin fool to replace him in that regard, lol.

[Mylie10]

Very interested to hear if Wests MRI comes out good or bad. It may be no big deal, but it could also be a very big deal for a guy his age.

If he's out, that opens the door for increased roles for Looney and Javale. I'm not sure either guy has broken the 20 minute mark in any game this season yet. So it would be interesting to see how the minutes would shake out.

I believe they will continue to start Zaza when he comes back, but Javale is really trying hard to do the right thing so to speak and to try and slow down the foul rate.

It could also open the door for Damien Jones to get some big boy minutes. We shall see.

[turk3d]

No doubt Mo' rebounding has improved with the Clips, again my opinion. From what I've seen, he seems to be more focused on defense this year, since his main purpose for us as to put points on the board with us. Maybe he feels that the Clips need him to be more of a defensive presence for them, and maybe the Clips coaches have told him they expect him to defend for them.

[Prius]

West has been pretty good for Warriors all year except the beginning of the year. It's too bad we got him near the end of his career. Obviously having Durant is good but before the super ultra super team, would've been nice to have Green at SF to replace Harry B, Pacer West at PF and a 2013-15 Bogut along with Klay and Curry. Then had we won championships with that team no one would've discredited us unless Cavs were injured like in 2015.