Game 27: Phoenix Suns (8-18) @ Oklahoma City Thunder (15-11)

[bwgood77]

I thought Len looked good tonight. Not without his warts, but about the only thing we had going in the second.

Is BK just emotionally fragile? What is this ****?

Len looked good?

I suppose the standards have been lowered enough.


I want the Suns to look good.. Even if they lose... I want to see a team that has potential, a team that competes... This team is packed of players playing for their own stats and phoning in games.

You have no idea how low the standards are right now. Len is near the bottom with Knight which is quite sad. What a waste.

Len has his issues but he provides value. Maybe not the eye candy value, but do you just completely ignore stuff like this?

The 2 most important things for every center are rebounding and rim protection. Len's rebound percentage for the year is 18.0 and block percentage is 5.4. To put this into perspective, here's a list of players who averaged 16+ TReb% and 5+ Blk% while playing at least 20 minutes per game in the last 4 seasons (since Len was drafted):



Players with his skillset are worth significantly more than $10M/yr.

That is extremely valuable. I mean that's proof. I think we probably have enough scoring once Booker and Warren get in their prime and rebounding has ALWAYS been a huge weakness for the Suns. Now that we have a young center who is among the best rebounders in the league, people want to get rid of him?

I'm happy we finally have a good young 7 footer who rebounds and can block shots. He's not pretty on offense that much, but most great rebounding and good rim protectors are not either.

[TeamTragic]

Len looked good?

I suppose the standards have been lowered enough.


I want the Suns to look good.. Even if they lose... I want to see a team that has potential, a team that competes... This team is packed of players playing for their own stats and phoning in games.

You have no idea how low the standards are right now. Len is near the bottom with Knight which is quite sad. What a waste.

Len has his issues but he provides value. Maybe not the eye candy value, but do you just completely ignore stuff like this?

The 2 most important things for every center are rebounding and rim protection. Len's rebound percentage for the year is 18.0 and block percentage is 5.4. To put this into perspective, here's a list of players who averaged 16+ TReb% and 5+ Blk% while playing at least 20 minutes per game in the last 4 seasons (since Len was drafted):



Players with his skillset are worth significantly more than $10M/yr.

That is extremely valuable. I mean that's proof. I think we probably have enough scoring once Booker and Warren get in their prime and rebounding has ALWAYS been a huge weakness for the Suns. Now that we have a young center who is among the best rebounders in the league, people want to get rid of him?

I'm happy we finally have a good young 7 footer who rebounds and can block shots. He's not pretty on offense that much, but most great rebounding and good rim protectors are not either.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Alex Len is not worth 16M per season or greater. Not on this current team and I bet he won't fit whatever McD has planned for the future. I saw a post recently saying that he has been playing better the last 10 games.

Does that mean we should pay him 20M per season? How did that approach work for Knight? I guess we should give Tucker a contract because every once in a while he plays good D on a superstar. This is nonsense on multiple levels.

There are too many redundancies right now. This franchise is going nowhere fast and signing Len to a ridiculous contract will not solve any current issues. It will just make the future more complicated.

[bwgood77]

You have your opinion and I have mine. Alex Len is not worth 16M per season or greater. Not on this current team and I bet he won't fit whatever McD has planned for the future. I saw a post recently saying that he has been playing better the last 10 games.

Does that mean we should pay him 20M per season? How did that approach work for Knight? I guess we should give Tucker a contract because every once in a while he plays good D on a superstar. This is nonsense on multiple levels.

There are too many redundancies right now. This franchise is going nowhere fast and signing Len to a ridiculous contract will not solve any current issues. It will just make the future more complicated.

gaspar's post was in response to the person saying he has been better the last 10 games, demonstrating that it's not just 10 games but 3 years.

I don't necessarily think he is worth that type of money either. The money is outrageous. But if we let him walk away you are letting a very solid rebounder/shot blocker of the last three years...#6 on gaspar's chart, walk out the door and getting nothing in return. Now obviously he probably doesn't keep those rates up at starter minutes, but nonetheless, he's got some strengths.

If we let him go that money will likely just end up going to pay someone worse, because we are not likely to sign a free agent that is better.

I'm not saying I love Len, but I think it would probably be stupid not to pay him at least a reasonable contract in the current landscape, unless we have been able to trade him for something of equal or better value.

I'd be pretty surprised if we traded him or didn't pay him though.

[TeamTragic]

You have your opinion and I have mine. Alex Len is not worth 16M per season or greater. Not on this current team and I bet he won't fit whatever McD has planned for the future. I saw a post recently saying that he has been playing better the last 10 games.

Does that mean we should pay him 20M per season? How did that approach work for Knight? I guess we should give Tucker a contract because every once in a while he plays good D on a superstar. This is nonsense on multiple levels.

There are too many redundancies right now. This franchise is going nowhere fast and signing Len to a ridiculous contract will not solve any current issues. It will just make the future more complicated.

I don't think he is worth that type of money either. The money is outrageous. But if we let him walk away you are letting a very solid rebounder/shot blocker of the last three years...#6 on gaspar's chart, walk out the door and getting nothing in return. Now obviously he probably doesn't keep those rates up at starter minutes, but nonetheless, he's got some strengths.

If we let him go that money will likely just end up going to pay someone worse, because we are not likely to sign a free agent that is better.

I'm not saying I love Len, but I think it would probably be stupid not to pay him at least a reasonable contract in the current landscape, unless we have been able to trade him for something of equal or better value.

I'd be pretty surprised if we traded him or didn't pay him though.

If he is willing to accept a reasonable contract and somehow fits into the future then that would be perfect. However if he wants max money I would say that a S&T is the best idea. At this rate I see him as an asset that does not have a future on this team.

We better be lining up trades right now. This team is an ugly mess right now. Westbrook throwing 100 alley oop passes and Len standing around like an idiot. Chandler doesn't get a pass either. Earl Watson is worse than Dantoni when it comes to defense.

[bwgood77]

You have your opinion and I have mine. Alex Len is not worth 16M per season or greater. Not on this current team and I bet he won't fit whatever McD has planned for the future. I saw a post recently saying that he has been playing better the last 10 games.

Does that mean we should pay him 20M per season? How did that approach work for Knight? I guess we should give Tucker a contract because every once in a while he plays good D on a superstar. This is nonsense on multiple levels.

There are too many redundancies right now. This franchise is going nowhere fast and signing Len to a ridiculous contract will not solve any current issues. It will just make the future more complicated.

I don't think he is worth that type of money either. The money is outrageous. But if we let him walk away you are letting a very solid rebounder/shot blocker of the last three years...#6 on gaspar's chart, walk out the door and getting nothing in return. Now obviously he probably doesn't keep those rates up at starter minutes, but nonetheless, he's got some strengths.

If we let him go that money will likely just end up going to pay someone worse, because we are not likely to sign a free agent that is better.

I'm not saying I love Len, but I think it would probably be stupid not to pay him at least a reasonable contract in the current landscape, unless we have been able to trade him for something of equal or better value.

I'd be pretty surprised if we traded him or didn't pay him though.

If he is willing to accept a reasonable contract and somehow fits into the future then that would be perfect. However if he wants max money I would say that a S&T is the best idea. At this rate I see him as an asset that does not have a future on this team.

We better be lining up trades right now. This team is an ugly mess right now. Westbrook throwing 100 alley oop passes and Len standing around like an idiot. Chandler doesn't get a pass either. Earl Watson is worse than Dantoni when it comes to defense.

It doesn't matter what he wants, but just that what someone will pay him. If someone offers him a max, I don't know what the Suns would do. That would be tough. I'd be kind of surprised if they did, but Brooklyn was crazy last year. Bobby Marks the other day said he thought Lopez would re-sign in Brooklyn when the time came because he is a creature of habit, so they might not want to spend major money on a young center right now.

[TeamTragic]

I don't think he is worth that type of money either. The money is outrageous. But if we let him walk away you are letting a very solid rebounder/shot blocker of the last three years...#6 on gaspar's chart, walk out the door and getting nothing in return. Now obviously he probably doesn't keep those rates up at starter minutes, but nonetheless, he's got some strengths.

If we let him go that money will likely just end up going to pay someone worse, because we are not likely to sign a free agent that is better.

I'm not saying I love Len, but I think it would probably be stupid not to pay him at least a reasonable contract in the current landscape, unless we have been able to trade him for something of equal or better value.

I'd be pretty surprised if we traded him or didn't pay him though.

If he is willing to accept a reasonable contract and somehow fits into the future then that would be perfect. However if he wants max money I would say that a S&T is the best idea. At this rate I see him as an asset that does not have a future on this team.

We better be lining up trades right now. This team is an ugly mess right now. Westbrook throwing 100 alley oop passes and Len standing around like an idiot. Chandler doesn't get a pass either. Earl Watson is worse than Dantoni when it comes to defense.

It doesn't matter what he wants, but just that what someone will pay him. If someone offers him a max, I don't know what the Suns would do. That would be tough. I'd be kind of surprised if they did, but Brooklyn was crazy last year. Bobby Marks the other day said he thought Lopez would re-sign in Brooklyn when the time came because he is a creature of habit, so they might not want to spend major money on a young center right now.

With our luck a desperate treadmill team will give Len the worst contract in NBA history. I can just see it happening with the new CBA looming. I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

I'm just curious where you see Len fitting into this franchise if we are looking to trade for a superstar with nearly our entire lineup going out or sticking with what we have until free agency hits then slowly clearing space.

[bwgood77]

With our luck a desperate treadmill team will give Len the worst contract in NBA history. I can just see it happening with the new CBA looming. I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

I'm just curious where you see Len fitting into this franchise if we are looking to trade for a superstar with nearly our entire lineup going out or sticking with what we have until free agency hits then slowly clearing space.

I don't think we will be able to trade for a superstar. Every team in the nba is looking to trade for a superstar but there is only one trade every couple of years. Usually in the last year of their deals and then you have to hope to re-sign them. It's a gamble, especially with someone like Cousins who has never been able to win. People say he needs to go to a solid franchise. I know we'd like to think Phx is one but I don't think many would claim it is today. Revolving coaches, disgruntled players, etc, the last few years? I guess that's the one positive about the season so far. No one is visibly disgruntled. A few have claimed Knight is at times but he seems fairly professional about it.

How do I see Len fitting in? Well, I think since we have young players from the 2-4 positions who can hit the 3 and are super athletic with shot blocking and defensive potential, he could be the 7 footer in the middle he provides a ton of rebounds and defends the rim with some shot blocks.

I've always had issues with our rebounding until the last couple of years. We were ALWAYS out rebounded until now. We have three good rebounders right now. Chandler, Len and Tucker. I think we are all well aware that Chandler and Tucker won't be here for the long term. Without them we have very little rebounding. Chriss has had a good couple of games rebounding, but without the center boxing guys out, he likely doesn't get nearly as many.

I also don't know who people envision us being able to get if we just let Len walk away. Sure some want to trade for Cousins or Noel, but in the case that doesn't happen, who do we sign to play center and who is the rebounder long term?

[thamadkant]

As long as Len avoids shooting dumb shots... Like today... Fade away against Westbrook at 5 feet from the ring... Or a highly contested hook shot... His size, athleticism, shot blocking and rebounding is worth 12-13 million In my book....

But we all know some messed up GM will offer a 4 year 70 million contract to mess things up. Im not sure who though...

[thamadkant]

Suns must do a trade for a star this season... Because if not... Look at the potential salary.


Bledsoe: 14 million
Knight: 13 million
Chandler: 13 million
Len: 16-18 million
Warren: 15 million
Dudley: 10 million
Tucker: 8-9 million


Thats a 30 win team with maxed up salary and hopeful on 2 players to become superstars.

[nevetsov]

I don't think we are tanking at all, we are just a bad team right now.

Why would we tank for a high pick, when we don't even play the high picks that we already have?

Bender, our highest pick in ages, doesn't even get on the court without a injury to someone else. Even Len, who was #5 overall, can't even land a starting gig in his 4th season, even though he played significantly better in a starters role.

[LacosteM]

I don't think we are tanking at all, we are just a bad team right now.

Why would we tank for a high pick, when we don't even play the high picks that we already have?

Bender, our highest pick in ages, doesn't even get on the court without a injury to someone else. Even Len, who was #5 overall, can't even land a starting gig in his 4th season, even though he played significantly better in a starters role.

If this was even a remotely playoff team, I'd somewhat understand Watson relying on veterans more. But who is he kidding... 30 wins is a reach for this team. There is really no excuse for him to feed Bender minutes through a straw and play him only in garbage time or when someone's injured. And the worst thing is that in limited time he receives he's heavily underutilized and relegated to standing in the corner. Also if he's already that commited to winning, shouldn't he play Ullis over Knight who right now is arguably the worst player in the league?

I've seen a lot of Lakers ridiculing after their "return to Earth", but I bet they're enjoying their team much more than Suns fans, as their young players are actually playing and contributing, while Suns are relying on veterans and still losing.

[Kerrsed]

Why would we tank for a high pick, when we don't even play the high picks that we already have?

High draft picks = Trade assets to get better players. Look at the Celtics. They are the team that everyone talks about when it comes to trades for superstars. Cousins, Noel/Okafor, Butler, if there is a star player that sounds like he is on the move, the Celtics can be linked to them. When you look at their "Young Tradebait Players", none of them really jump out at you. Smart/Brown/Zeller/Olynyk are the names thrown about, but are any of them really that good? I mean Smart has really struggled to find his footing, Brown is averaging just around 5 points per game (14 minutes) with shotty percentages, Zeller is just kinda bleh just like Olynyk is. You see, the real reason they are always talked about when it come to trades is due to their future draft picks.

They have the rights to swap 1st with Brooklyn this year, and thats going to be a high pick (top 5). The year after the own their own AND Brooklyn's pick (Most likely to be yet another top 5 pick unless something is drastically done).

Thats why we would tank for a high draft pick, because its a great usable asset for us to make a big league move. I seriously think we have the better set of assets if we do end up with a top 5 pick. I mean not saying i would trade them necessarily, but what package looks better?

Smart/Brown/Zeller/Olynyk/2017 Nets pick (Top 5)/2018 Nets pick (Top 5)

or

Warren/Chriss/Bender/Len/2017 Suns pick (Top 5)/2018 Miami pick (top 10)

And yes, i do agree that we dont really have to tank because we just suck that bad, but still, even if we are having a decent game for once, its real easy to throw Knight in and have him help us continue this losing streak. Every game counts, and we know there can be a huge difference in a top 5 pick rather than a top 10 pick. Add on to that the fact that more losses = way way way more ping pong balls to jump ahead to get one of those top 3 picks.

[Kerrsed]

I've seen a lot of Lakers ridiculing after their "return to Earth", but I bet they're enjoying their team much more than Suns fans, as their young players are actually playing and contributing, while Suns are relying on veterans and still losing.

Apples and Oranges.

The Lakers best players are youngsters (Besides Lou Williams who still gets major minutes and is a huge reason for them winning games). Their best PG is a 20 year old Russell. There is no way Calderon can even compete with him. Williams is thier best SG, hence why he gets the minutes he does, but Clarkson is right behind him and is also getting minutes at back-up PG since he also is light years ahead of Calderon. Ingram has been playing better ball than Deng (who is on his last legs), Randel is their best PF, and the C spot is a toss up and where they need to improve the most.

OUR issue is that are vets are still better than our youngsters. Chandler out plays Len nightly, even though Chriss and Bender have shown a few flashes in games, Tucker still out preforms them when it come to production for the minutes, Dudley started out as our PF, but once Warren started to out preform Tucker at SF, then it came down to who plays better out of Tucker and Dudley, as they both were playing better than Chriss and Bender. Tucker won out and got the PF gig. Booker obviously was starting to out preform Knight last season, so he got the nod this season, and Bledsoe is our best PG.

So just like the Lakers, we are trying to play our (Currently) Best Players, its just our Vets still preform, wherefor the Lakers Youngsters have surpassed them. Once we pull guys like Chandler and Tucker out of the starting 5 and replace them with Len and Chriss, well obvious tank is obvious. The only way to bypass the obvious tank (besides injuries) is to trade off Chandler and Tucker and Knight (fingers crossed) and get either A. More youngsters in return or B. other vets that preform worse than Chriss/Bender/Len, so that way they would be our new currently best players at that position and get the starting nod.

[Sunsss]

Just watched the game. Fastbreak points pretty much tells the story. (22-0) That to me means they had much better gameplan and energy than us. Bledsoe had good success driving in previous games against them. This time they shutdown the driving lanes for him, Roberson did his thing on Booker in the first half and our halfcourt execution was bad as usual. For a fast paced team, we sure have a ton of possessions that end as the buzzer sounds. On defense we didn't look prepared for PJ on PG look.

As for positives, it was good to see Booker explode in the third quarter against a good defender and have TJ back.

[NavLDO]

This game is unwatchable. I hate what a negative fan this season has turned me into.

Its hard to think of any positives.

One was watching booker now he sucks at the moment.

I watch to watch the rookies but they get no minutes.

I guess we are one game closer to trading knight in one positive

I'm not sure how you can realistically say that about our rookies. Chriss is averaging 17 MPG in 27 gms, and Bender is averaging 11 MPG in 22 gms. Shoot, Chriss has even started 20 games--more than Len and Warren combined in their rookie seasons, so I think we got a bit 'spoiled' last season with seeing Booker play so much; but we need to remember that Backcourt-types typically develop quicker than Bigs, so it's a testament that Chriss is even getting so much 'burn'.

And regarding yur previou statement, at the time you made it, Booker did appear to be headed for another poor game, but he pulled it out to a respectable game...aside from his 6 TOVs.

[NavLDO]

There is no way we can give Len 13-15 million when he literally can't stay on the floor because of foul trouble

IMO, you take the 'good' with the 'bad'. He does have his games where he gets into foul trouble, but he also averages nearly 8 TRBs and 1.6 Blks/gm in less than 23 mpg. He'sa defensive force in the middle; something we need to have.

Then the question comes back to...who WOULD you pay (actually, be prepared for closer to $16-18M per)? Do you want to overpay for a guy like Mozgov or Mahinmi?? Both already 30 who were paid $16M per for 4yrs on last year's salary Cap??? Joakim Noah, also 30, at $17M for 4 years??? How about we go cheap and trade for Miles Plumlee, making $12.5M per...would you like that???

Face it, Len is HARDLY the worst Center we could pay $16-$18M to for 4-to-5 years. He has his Warts, but he's a defensive presence we sorely LACK on this team.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/defReboundRate

We need those DRebs he provides...

...as well as those BLKs...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017_per_game.html

...notice that only two players ahead of him have fewer MPG--Nogueira, who has only played 19gms and provides but half the offense Len provides, which as we know is pretty bad...and Henson, I don't even need to go there.

He's 10th on per36, if you take out those with less than 294 total minutes, or about 10mpg. (included Dedmon from the Kings as the 'cutoff')

And should Minny consider not even paying Giannis? Because he currently is averaging .1 more fouls per gm?? Or the Knicks with Porzingis for the same issue?? Yeah, they play longer per game, but point is, they still get into foul trouble...as does Embiid, who plays similar minutes as Len, but averages just .3 less fouls???

All those guys are going to get MAX contracts; Len will not for various reasons, but he's providing BLKs like the 'big boys' do, and we need that; he just needs to be a bit more cognizant, is all, which I believe can be fixed.

[NavLDO]

All right.... cut it to twenty.... now unleash the Kracken.









Wait, we don't have a Kracken

We have a Krack-Len...does that count??? Yeah, I guess not...worth a try though!

[NavLDO]

Took ulis one play to do what knight has been trying to do all game

Don't forget Bledsoe...not sure what EXACTLY you are referencing, but most likely applies to Bledsoe as well--our starting PG with 4 Assts...WOO HOO!!!! Booker had more with 5. I really need to try to find time to watch this one.

How pitiful is it that...

...RW slashes 26/22/11 on 53% from 2 and 50% from 3

...while...

...EB slashes 12/4/3 on 31% from 2 and 17% from 3

Blame Knight, Len, Tucker, Chandler, etc., all you want, but our player leadership on this team sucks, and likely our rookie coach as well. But c'mon...McD needs to give the 'cook' some ingredient to work with, and it all starts with the cut of 'beef' at the PG position, and sorry, but when Watson's forced to work with cube steak, while Donovan gets Filet Mignon, there's only so much he can do...

[bwgood77]

Why would we tank for a high pick, when we don't even play the high picks that we already have?

High draft picks = Trade assets to get better players. Look at the Celtics. They are the team that everyone talks about when it comes to trades for superstars. Cousins, Noel/Okafor, Butler, if there is a star player that sounds like he is on the move, the Celtics can be linked to them. When you look at their "Young Tradebait Players", none of them really jump out at you. Smart/Brown/Zeller/Olynyk are the names thrown about, but are any of them really that good? I mean Smart has really struggled to find his footing, Brown is averaging just around 5 points per game (14 minutes) with shotty percentages, Zeller is just kinda bleh just like Olynyk is. You see, the real reason they are always talked about when it come to trades is due to their future draft picks.

They have the rights to swap 1st with Brooklyn this year, and thats going to be a high pick (top 5). The year after the own their own AND Brooklyn's pick (Most likely to be yet another top 5 pick unless something is drastically done).

Thats why we would tank for a high draft pick, because its a great usable asset for us to make a big league move. I seriously think we have the better set of assets if we do end up with a top 5 pick. I mean not saying i would trade them necessarily, but what package looks better?

Smart/Brown/Zeller/Olynyk/2017 Nets pick (Top 5)/2018 Nets pick (Top 5)

or

Warren/Chriss/Bender/Len/2017 Suns pick (Top 5)/2018 Miami pick (top 10)

And yes, i do agree that we dont really have to tank because we just suck that bad, but still, even if we are having a decent game for once, its real easy to throw Knight in and have him help us continue this losing streak. Every game counts, and we know there can be a huge difference in a top 5 pick rather than a top 10 pick. Add on to that the fact that more losses = way way way more ping pong balls to jump ahead to get one of those top 3 picks.

The only problem is the Celtics haven't been able to strike gold with all those assets yet, and I don't think it's a lack for trying. They got Garnett back in the day, and Ray Allen in a separate move, but many think McHale gifted his prior teammate to Boston for a lowball package.

I still love watching Warren, Booker, Chriss, Bender and Ulis develop. I would hate to trade for an older star, deplete our assets, and still probably not get to the second round, while he is in his prime (IF he resigns).

[bwgood77]

I've seen a lot of Lakers ridiculing after their "return to Earth", but I bet they're enjoying their team much more than Suns fans, as their young players are actually playing and contributing, while Suns are relying on veterans and still losing.

Apples and Oranges.

The Lakers best players are youngsters (Besides Lou Williams who still gets major minutes and is a huge reason for them winning games). Their best PG is a 20 year old Russell. There is no way Calderon can even compete with him. Williams is thier best SG, hence why he gets the minutes he does, but Clarkson is right behind him and is also getting minutes at back-up PG since he also is light years ahead of Calderon. Ingram has been playing better ball than Deng (who is on his last legs), Randel is their best PF, and the C spot is a toss up and where they need to improve the most.

OUR issue is that are vets are still better than our youngsters. Chandler out plays Len nightly, even though Chriss and Bender have shown a few flashes in games, Tucker still out preforms them when it come to production for the minutes, Dudley started out as our PF, but once Warren started to out preform Tucker at SF, then it came down to who plays better out of Tucker and Dudley, as they both were playing better than Chriss and Bender. Tucker won out and got the PF gig. Booker obviously was starting to out preform Knight last season, so he got the nod this season, and Bledsoe is our best PG.

So just like the Lakers, we are trying to play our (Currently) Best Players, its just our Vets still preform, wherefor the Lakers Youngsters have surpassed them. Once we pull guys like Chandler and Tucker out of the starting 5 and replace them with Len and Chriss, well obvious tank is obvious. The only way to bypass the obvious tank (besides injuries) is to trade off Chandler and Tucker and Knight (fingers crossed) and get either A. More youngsters in return or B. other vets that preform worse than Chriss/Bender/Len, so that way they would be our new currently best players at that position and get the starting nod.

Ultimately I think it's fine to let those guys play IF we can trade them and to give the young guys some examples for a while to learn from. I think Chandler has really helped Chriss' game. Tucker probably demonstrates the work ethic, and perhaps Bender not playing has made him the guy that spends the most time in the gym.