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Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET

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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#21 » by Chuck Everett » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:01 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Sorry but Jokic's stats clearly put him in elite company, even if he only marginally improves he is someone that you can absolutely build around.


Build around to me, means they will lead you to wins. I honestly could care less about stats if the team is going to be under .500 every year. It's why I don't get amped off anything the T-Wolves are doing. Whether you believe Jokic will be elite is fine, but I'd like to see those numbers continue to be what they are in victories.


You mean like the last 2 games? Or last season when Jokic was put in as a starter, prior to Gallo going out with injury leaving us without our top 2 forwards? People forget that the Nuggets were 2 games out of the playoffs last year when Gallo got hurt despite having Chandler out for the year, and being the 3rd most injured team at the time. Jokic leads to wins, but he has to have players around him, as shown in the last 2 games which happen to be the only 2 games this roster has been healthy and available all year.


No, I don't forget it. I'm aware Chandler was out all of last season. And I just said earlier it was good to see Mudiay, Harris and Jokic play well in the same game. If Jokic is the player to build around (again I'm not sure if any of their youth has solidified that), then the front office will act accordingly and do so. I'm not sure what we're really arguing about.

I'd love it for Jokic to become an All-NBA player and foundational piece to turn the franchise around.
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#22 » by The Rebel » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:02 pm

Chuck Everett wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
We've been told that he is a future all-star and going to be the center of the team; but he isn't showing that drive to succeed. I've seen players drafted higher than him not make it in the NBA and he just might be one of those. He's a remarkable young man as a person, from what I can see. So I do hope he succeeds. He's got the physical gifts to be great, but at this point I'm beginning to believe he'll be a great backup, not the center of the team.


I'm curious. What do you think of say Kemba Walker or CJ McCollum? Do you consider these two players to be good? What about Kyle Lowry?

I guess my point is, not every future all-star or all-NBA player looks like one at the age of 20-21. I like Mudiay, think he has a lot of natural talent, but hey if Murray is better for the future, that will be great for Denver. However, I still remember Billups kicking around for awhile and eventually finding his niche. Not every NBA career is linear and Mudiay seems like the type of talent you should be patient with because when it finally clicks for him, it will be special.

Then again, maybe they can trade him to the Spurs for Kyle Anderson or something, so we can see Mudiay develop properly.


I don't believe anybody is saying cut the guy, but well into his 2nd year he has not shown much development, and I think it is entirely reasonable to start looking at options if he is not going to pan out. We knew he was a project when he was drafted, but with the starting job and minutes handed to him, his development should be questioned, and it is reasonable for any fan to wonder why he is being handed so many minutes while other players are more deserving.
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#23 » by Chuck Everett » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:06 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
We've been told that he is a future all-star and going to be the center of the team; but he isn't showing that drive to succeed. I've seen players drafted higher than him not make it in the NBA and he just might be one of those. He's a remarkable young man as a person, from what I can see. So I do hope he succeeds. He's got the physical gifts to be great, but at this point I'm beginning to believe he'll be a great backup, not the center of the team.


I'm curious. What do you think of say Kemba Walker or CJ McCollum? Do you consider these two players to be good? What about Kyle Lowry?

I guess my point is, not every future all-star or all-NBA player looks like one at the age of 20-21. I like Mudiay, think he has a lot of natural talent, but hey if Murray is better for the future, that will be great for Denver. However, I still remember Billups kicking around for awhile and eventually finding his niche. Not every NBA career is linear and Mudiay seems like the type of talent you should be patient with because when it finally clicks for him, it will be special.

Then again, maybe they can trade him to the Spurs for Kyle Anderson or something, so we can see Mudiay develop properly.


I don't believe anybody is saying cut the guy, but well into his 2nd year he has not shown much development, and I think it is entirely reasonable to start looking at options if he is not going to pan out. We knew he was a project when he was drafted, but with the starting job and minutes handed to him, his development should be questioned, and it is reasonable for any fan to wonder why he is being handed so many minutes while other players are more deserving.


Fair enough. I watch a lot of Denver games, but there's something off about the way this team is coached. Perhaps these last two games we're beginning to see what the future may actually bring, but as you know, I've been very down on Malone's weird rotations. Playing small for no damn reason and giving Murray literally zero PG minutes.
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#24 » by Chuck Everett » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:07 pm

If Mudiay is having a terrible game, absolutely he should be parked on the bench. That goes without saying.
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#25 » by NuggetsWY » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:33 pm

The Rebel wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
We've been told that he is a future all-star and going to be the center of the team; but he isn't showing that drive to succeed. I've seen players drafted higher than him not make it in the NBA and he just might be one of those. He's a remarkable young man as a person, from what I can see. So I do hope he succeeds. He's got the physical gifts to be great, but at this point I'm beginning to believe he'll be a great backup, not the center of the team.


I'm curious. What do you think of say Kemba Walker or CJ McCollum? Do you consider these two players to be good? What about Kyle Lowry?

I guess my point is, not every future all-star or all-NBA player looks like one at the age of 20-21. I like Mudiay, think he has a lot of natural talent, but hey if Murray is better for the future, that will be great for Denver. However, I still remember Billups kicking around for awhile and eventually finding his niche. Not every NBA career is linear and Mudiay seems like the type of talent you should be patient with because when it finally clicks for him, it will be special.

Then again, maybe they can trade him to the Spurs for Kyle Anderson or something, so we can see Mudiay develop properly.


I don't believe anybody is saying cut the guy, but well into his 2nd year he has not shown much development, and I think it is entirely reasonable to start looking at options if he is not going to pan out. We knew he was a project when he was drafted, but with the starting job and minutes handed to him, his development should be questioned, and it is reasonable for any fan to wonder why he is being handed so many minutes while other players are more deserving.

There are plenty of stories of later picks doing well. When there were ten rounds in the draft, it seemed like every year there was at least one pick in the last three rounds that made a team. I get that. There have been a few players that didn't "make it" until they'd had a few years. A current example would be Hassan Whiteside. But most players that become all-stars show their ability early on. Like the old saying goes, "It isn't how much the dog fights, it's how much fight is in the dog." I have personally played pick-up ball (decades ago) with two players who were drafted and had skills but they couldn't make it in the NBA. It's a tough league and there's no shame in not making it. There should be great pride in getting the chance.

With that said, I'm not in favor of giving up on Mudiay. In fact, I would argue that playing him so much while he is playing so poorly is hurting him because it's got to be messing with his mind, creating doubts. Putting a player in a position they can grow is essential for most young players. The Lakers are playing Ingram at PG (with a good ball handler next to him). He's doing OK but he's really a SF type. Teams have taken approaches like that. Should Mudiay play SG next to Murray or Barton? Maybe. He plays SG next to Nelson and it seems to work well. Murray was a PG until Kentucky and now the Nuggets are playing him at SG most of the time and it's working fine. There are always options and it's the coaches job to identify those and which ones work. How many times have people on this forum commented on "Malone's rotations"? No, we are not experts, but if we can identify issues that seem obvious, certainly he can.

Look at another example: Playing Barton at SF only works against certain SFs. He's just not big enough to play against Melo or LeBron. Same with Faried at center: it's never going to work against Drummond or Cousins or Mosgov, at least not for extended minutes.

I remain optimistic that the Nuggets will have a guard rotation that includes Mudiay, Murray, Harris, and Radicevic (if he works out). Three of them have been PGs in most of their playing time and Harris is decent enough with the ball. All four are 6'4" or 6'5" I believe. Throw out the PG/SG and just call them guards and play them in any combo you want. Now that would be exciting.
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#26 » by skywalker33 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:01 pm

Yeah, if Mudiay was 24 and still averaging more turnovers than assists I'd be looking to move on him. But right now he's 21 averaging 15/5/4 which is reasonable while still in a learning stage. Hope he's taking notes while sitting on the bench. I'd mandate he plays in the Summer League again this year
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like to see Utah, and Denver lose


Exactly as I've been saying all along !!
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Re: Game 27: New York Knicks (14-12) @ Denver Nuggets (10-16) - 9:00 PM ET 

Post#27 » by Riko » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:34 pm

IMHO Mudiay is a player who needs a team build around him (a lot of shooter) to perform.
At the same time, even if he reach his potential, I don't see him like a superstar capable of lead a team in the PO (Wade style) but more like an all-star with good stats in mediocre team (Wall style).

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