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2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread

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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#801 » by OleSchool » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:51 am

PhilasFinest wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:De'Aaron Fox shouldn't be slept on as if he's truly a tier below other PGs in this draft. This guy is a competitor. Everything is so jumpshot oriented right now that it can be overlooked how well he plays the game in all other aspects at the age of 18. Right now he's not looked upon as a scorer, but he may be a good scorer in the NBA immediately and certainly a great creator. I think that he will be much like prior Kentucky guards Wall and Bledsoe, although he is much more like Wall as a passer. Calipari is a pretty good judge of talent, that should be considered.


I think he's a very good prospect, just not an ideal pick to add to a Simmons led team.


Yeah, agree. Like DSJ is a great prospect but not for us
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#802 » by SelfishPlayer » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:56 am

The Sixers also need a finisher, the sort of guy that is looking to receive the ball with the instinct to score and not the instinct to create. Too many creators can turn into a logjam at the "I need the ball to create and do my thing" position. Jayson Tatum is definitely not that sort of player. Too many passers and dribblers can turn into a too many cooks in the kitchen scenario. If you already had Lebron James, and you had a choice to add Kawhi Leonard or "Jason Kidd with a 3 point jump shot" who would you take? I'd have to go with the taller guy that is instinctively looking to shoot, finish, and score with as few dribbles as possible. Kawhi also finishes over the top of defenses in the paint. That's not something that these particular guards can get done regularly. That may not even be a strength of Tatum...
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#803 » by AdotSmoove » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:58 am

Why does everyone make the case that lonzo ball needs to rebuild his jump shot? Sure it's ugly, but it is effective. Is it that we think a more traditional form will improve the shot percentage because dude shoots from 3 right now and realistically how much higher can we expect it to raise?

He is effective off ball and doesn't need the offense to run through him to stay engaged. He isn't a volume scorer but he doesn't need to be because our volume scorer is embiid. The fact that he can score but is very much a facilitator first doesn't diminish his value on the Sixers IMO.

Now taking him over Fultz is a bold move and I'm not suggesting we do it, but whoever we take needs off ball skills and the ability to space the floor. Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy. Fultz seems more of a shot creator that looks to attack and finish inside and looks to perimeter scoring as a second option. I have reservations about his ability to play off ball and these questions will likely not be answered at Washington.

In y'alls opinion, if Fultz can not develop a solid off ball game is he that valuable to the Sixers roster?


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#804 » by LloydFree » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:05 am

AdotSmoove wrote:Why does everyone make the case that lonzo ball needs to rebuild his jump shot? Sure it's ugly, but it is effective. Is it that we think a more traditional form will improve the shot percentage because dude shoots from 3 right now and realistically how much higher can we expect it to raise?

He is effective off ball and doesn't need the offense to run through him to stay engaged. He isn't a volume scorer but he doesn't need to be because our volume scorer is embiid. The fact that he can score but is very much a facilitator first doesn't diminish his value on the Sixers IMO.

Now taking him over Fultz is a bold move and I'm not suggesting we do it, but whoever we take needs off ball skills and the ability to space the floor. Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy. Fultz seems more of a shot creator that looks to attack and finish inside and looks to perimeter scoring as a second option. I have reservations about his ability to play off ball and these questions will likely not be answered at Washington.

In y'alls opinion, if Fultz can not develop a solid off ball game is he that valuable to the Sixers roster?


Taking Ball over Fultz isn't any bold move. Fultz isn't head and shoulders over any of the consensus top 5 players. I'd take Ball and Jackson over Fultz right now, without blinking.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#805 » by Slizeezyc » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:58 am

LloydFree wrote:
AdotSmoove wrote:Why does everyone make the case that lonzo ball needs to rebuild his jump shot? Sure it's ugly, but it is effective. Is it that we think a more traditional form will improve the shot percentage because dude shoots from 3 right now and realistically how much higher can we expect it to raise?

He is effective off ball and doesn't need the offense to run through him to stay engaged. He isn't a volume scorer but he doesn't need to be because our volume scorer is embiid. The fact that he can score but is very much a facilitator first doesn't diminish his value on the Sixers IMO.

Now taking him over Fultz is a bold move and I'm not suggesting we do it, but whoever we take needs off ball skills and the ability to space the floor. Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy. Fultz seems more of a shot creator that looks to attack and finish inside and looks to perimeter scoring as a second option. I have reservations about his ability to play off ball and these questions will likely not be answered at Washington.

In y'alls opinion, if Fultz can not develop a solid off ball game is he that valuable to the Sixers roster?


Taking Ball over Fultz isn't any bold move. Fultz isn't head and shoulders over any of the consensus top 5 players. I'd take Ball and Jackson over Fultz right now, without blinking.


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#806 » by cksdayoff » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:14 am

AdotSmoove wrote: Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy.


one of the big knocks on lonzo from what i've seen and read is that he doesn't drive and dish
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#807 » by eyeatoma » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:32 am

If we end up taking Ball, we'll end up with the same situation that we currently have with Biid, Jah, and Noel...

Too many people of the same position, duplicating certain stats... Yes I know it's a little different as Jah doesn't play defence, and Nerlens does. But Ball, is a PG who needs the ball in his hands... That's Ben Simmons to a T... Simmons is our PG, he can play PF, and play a Draymon role, but he's going to be the one getting our looks, not Lonzo Ball...

I'd prefer anyone of Fultz, Monk, Jackson or Tatum... Preferably one of Fultz/Monk and one of Jackson/Tatum...

Starting lineup of

Embiid
Simmons
Jackson or Tatum
Covington
Fultz/Monk

You have a perennial title contender in 2 years...
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#808 » by AdotSmoove » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:03 am

cksdayoff wrote:
AdotSmoove wrote: Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy.


one of the big knocks on lonzo from what i've seen and read is that he doesn't drive and dish



I haven't watched all of his games but I have seen a handful and highlights of others. He DOES drive and dish usually dropping off to the center for a close jumper. He doesn't drive and kick to open 3 point shooters (whether bc he can't, or doesn't, or I missed it).
My point wasn't that he features a drive and dish game but it was more that he does not attack the rim looking to finish.


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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#809 » by cksdayoff » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:10 am

AdotSmoove wrote:
cksdayoff wrote:
AdotSmoove wrote: Lonzo seems to be primarily a perimeter scorer or a drive and dish guy.


one of the big knocks on lonzo from what i've seen and read is that he doesn't drive and dish



I haven't watched all of his games but I have seen a handful and highlights of others. He DOES drive and dish usually dropping off to the center for a close jumper. He doesn't drive and kick to open 3 point shooters (whether bc he can't, or doesn't, or I missed it).
My point wasn't that he features a drive and dish game but it was more that he does not attack the rim looking to finish.



you're right.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#810 » by AdotSmoove » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:29 am

eyeatoma wrote:If we end up taking Ball, we'll end up with the same situation that we currently have with Biid, Jah, and Noel...

Too many people of the same position, duplicating certain stats... Yes I know it's a little different as Jah doesn't play defence, and Nerlens does. But Ball, is a PG who needs the ball in his hands... That's Ben Simmons to a T... Simmons is our PG, he can play PF, and play a Draymon role, but he's going to be the one getting our looks, not Lonzo Ball...

I'd prefer anyone of Fultz, Monk, Jackson or Tatum... Preferably one of Fultz/Monk and one of Jackson/Tatum...

Starting lineup of

Embiid
Simmons
Jackson or Tatum
Covington
Fultz/Monk

You have a perennial title contender in 2 years...


I mean Lonzo Ball isn't Rondo. His usage rate is 17.5 not exactly a ball pounder compared to Fultz 30. Just because Ball is a pg doesn't mean he needs the ball to be effective on the court. He spaces the floor and moves well off ball. He likes to hit teammates for open shots but he takes and makes plenty of his own.

And since when is two facilitators too many? Players that can see the floor well and hit the open man with the better shot should fill every position. For example, see Jah in the post and then see Embiid in the post and note how the offense around them moves.

I don't understand why you think Fultz is a better fit next to Simmons though. He has shown no ability to be a catch and shoot threat. He does not space the floor and he literally ALWAYS has the ball in his hands at Washington. It's not like he works quick either, he spends 15 seconds of the shot clock breaking his defender down and driving to the rim. He's great at it and all but what is Simmons, our PG, supposed to be doing in the meantime?

I'm with you on Monk. I think he is exactly what we need. I think Jackson is just a great guy to have on your roster. Tatum I don't like for the Sixers because his game is too iso heavy. He reminds me of a smaller Jah in that his offensive reportoire is beautiful, but beyond that his game is suspect.

Depending where we end up picking I think a Jackson/Monk draft is realistic, if not tempered. Hopefully Jackson falls similarly to how Justice Winslow fell a few years back, but I understand that is a pipe dream.





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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#811 » by eagereyez » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:27 pm

AdotSmoove wrote:I don't understand why you think Fultz is a better fit next to Simmons though. He has shown no ability to be a catch and shoot threat. He does not space the floor and he literally ALWAYS has the ball in his hands at Washington. It's not like he works quick either, he spends 15 seconds of the shot clock breaking his defender down and driving to the rim. He's great at it and all but what is Simmons, our PG, supposed to be doing in the meantime?

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Fultz is shooting 50% from 3 on 4 attempts a game. "Does not space the floor" lol not sure how you came up with that one. He also has shown the ability to be a catch and shoot threat, it's just that UW's offense struggles to create quality shots away from Fultz. And if Fultz is shooting 50% on contested pull-up 3's, how well do you think he'd shoot in UCLA's offense, with the high volume of wide open assisted looks that Ball receives? I've said it before; these are 18-19 year old college kids, not numbers in a spreadsheet. Put Fultz on UCLA and his usage rate will drop while his efficiency goes up.

And as for Jackson, I don't see how anyone who talks about spacing can argue that Jackson is a good fit. He's shooting 25% from 3, 57% from the line, and is a full year older than the average freshman. His shot is broken. The Sixers don't need another non-shooting forward next to Simmons.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#812 » by cksdayoff » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:45 pm

Fultz and Monk
#failforfultz
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#813 » by AdotSmoove » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:32 pm

eagereyez wrote:
AdotSmoove wrote:I don't understand why you think Fultz is a better fit next to Simmons though. He has shown no ability to be a catch and shoot threat. He does not space the floor and he literally ALWAYS has the ball in his hands at Washington. It's not like he works quick either, he spends 15 seconds of the shot clock breaking his defender down and driving to the rim. He's great at it and all but what is Simmons, our PG, supposed to be doing in the meantime?

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Fultz is shooting 50% from 3 on 4 attempts a game. "Does not space the floor" lol not sure how you came up with that one. He also has shown the ability to be a catch and shoot threat, it's just that UW's offense struggles to create quality shots away from Fultz. And if Fultz is shooting 50% on contested pull-up 3's, how well do you think he'd shoot in UCLA's offense, with the high volume of wide open assisted looks that Ball receives? I've said it before; these are 18-19 year old college kids, not numbers in a spreadsheet. Put Fultz on UCLA and his usage rate will drop while his efficiency goes up.

And as for Jackson, I don't see how anyone who talks about spacing can argue that Jackson is a good fit. He's shooting 25% from 3, 57% from the line, and is a full year older than the average freshman. His shot is broken. The Sixers don't need another non-shooting forward next to Simmons.


Shooting contested 3s of the bounce and hitting open catch and shoot threes is a completely different shot. I don't know why and catch and shoot attempts should be much easier but certain players need to get their shot off of the dribble. Stauskas is like this in spot up vs off dribble 3pt shooting, it's illogical. Spot up shooting is similar to free throws and the success or failure of one shows in the other as well, Fultz shoots 65%

I'm not saying Fultz can't become a catch and shoot threat, but right now he is not one nor does he even look for those opportunities. This trend goes back to high school, I watched him at Dematha. His play has developed but his style is exactly the same. In a vacuum, I take Fultz over Ball but at some point we have to transition out of BPA mentality.

And for Jackson the team needs more than just floor spacers. Roco D this season has been much improved but are you comfortable putting Cov on the opposing best wing each night and calling it a day? I'm not. Jackson also has solid off ball movement and with Simmons running the show he will hit the cutter and Jackson will finish strong where as Roco will hear footsteps. We need an athletic wing that is an actual transition threat and Covington can refocus on his catch and shoot game.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#814 » by Kolkmania » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:57 am

AdotSmoove wrote:I don't understand why you think Fultz is a better fit next to Simmons though. He has shown no ability to be a catch and shoot threat. He does not space the floor and he literally ALWAYS has the ball in his hands at Washington. It's not like he works quick either, he spends 15 seconds of the shot clock breaking his defender down and driving to the rim. He's great at it and all but what is Simmons, our PG, supposed to be doing in the meantime?


This is what he's asked to do at Washington, you can't blame him for that. I think he's going to be very effective as an off-ball guard, especially in his first years in the NBA. Have you watched FIBA's U19 tournament this summer? Surround Markelle Fultz with better players and he excels.

The biggest problem the Sixers have at this moment is dribble penetration of their guards and that's my problem with Ball. If he gets to the rim he's somewhat capable of dishing it to the big or even kicking it out to a guard, but he rarely attacks his man so he's not getting frequently enough in that position.

AdotSmoove wrote:I'm with you on Monk. I think he is exactly what we need. I think Jackson is just a great guy to have on your roster. Tatum I don't like for the Sixers because his game is too iso heavy. He reminds me of a smaller Jah in that his offensive reportoire is beautiful, but beyond that his game is suspect.


Monk has the same drawback to me as Ball, he's shooting extremely well, but he never attacks the rim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this moment (or prior to the match against North Carolina) Malik Monk made about 2 unassisted field goals at the rim in half court. Combine that with his below average size as a shooting guard and I'll think he's a limited player at the NBA level.

I've watched every second Jayson Tatum spent on the floor this year. Saying that apart from his ISO's his game is suspect is just not true. At first, he's not that ISO heavy to me at all, he's playing team orientated and shooting plenty of 3's and drives to the rim regularly.
But his biggest quality so far has been his defense, he's a terrific defensive rebounder, very mobile for his size and rarely misses a rotation. He's the #2 at my personal Big Board.

AdotSmoove wrote:Shooting contested 3s of the bounce and hitting open catch and shoot threes is a completely different shot. I don't know why and catch and shoot attempts should be much easier but certain players need to get their shot off of the dribble. Stauskas is like this in spot up vs off dribble 3pt shooting, it's illogical. Spot up shooting is similar to free throws and the success or failure of one shows in the other as well, Fultz shoots 65%


I agree that the footwork and balance is completely different, but do you have the numbers to back it up regarding Fultz? Nik Stauskas shot 36% percent with 0 dribbles, 21.3% with 1 dribble, 20.0% with 2 dribbles, 28.6% with 3-6 dribbles and 12.5% with 7+ dribbles from three last year.
During his first year at Kings he shot 33.9% from spotups and 25.8% from pull ups and this year 39.7% vs 37.1% (small sample sizes).

That said, Fultz' three point percentages are incredible this year, but it will probably regress somewhat. He's never been a consistent shooter in high school, those FT% are an indicator.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#815 » by freshie2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:29 am

cksdayoff wrote:Fultz and Monk


There you go...hopefully the lottery cooperates.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#816 » by sixerswillrule » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:58 pm

AdotSmoove wrote:I mean Lonzo Ball isn't Rondo. His usage rate is 17.5 not exactly a ball pounder compared to Fultz 30.


FYI usage rate is related to shot attempts and turnovers. Pass first point guards who don't put up a lot of shots will have low usage rates regardless of how long they spend pounding the ball (not saying Ball is a ball pounder). Rondo is at 19.3 for his career while Klay Thompson is at 24.6.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#817 » by cksdayoff » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:39 pm

freshie2 wrote:
cksdayoff wrote:Fultz and Monk


There you go...hopefully the lottery cooperates.


it won't
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#818 » by SelfishPlayer » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:20 pm

C Embiid
PF Simmons
SF Jonathan Isaac
SG Covington
PG Fultz
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#819 » by Ericb5 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:28 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:C Embiid
PF Simmons
SF Jonathan Isaac
SG Covington
PG Fultz


Swap Fultz with Ball and we have a deal.

OR

C Embiid
PF Simmons
SF Covington
SG Jackson
PG Monk

With Monk basically just guarding the PG position, and Simmons running the point on offense.
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Re: 2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#820 » by Kobblehead » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:22 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Jeremy Morgan from Northern Iowa is worth paying attention too.

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He's a 2-way player with an insane shooting stroke. 6'5" and 295 or so pounds. He just dropped 38 last night.

He's a senior (gasp) but don't worry, he was draftable as a sophomore and I would have taken him in the 1st as a junior.



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Jeremy Morgan vs. UNC

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