Knicks not ruling out DRose extension later in the season

[NBA Fan 1234]

Dragic's team is ****. That cannot be used against him.

Lin's team wasn't at all good when he carried them into the playoffs in his first real playing time. Only after his run did he get back Melo.

Listen, I know teammates matter, of course. But it's not like every player can be excused for a long history of not doing that well in the W/L column. At some point it is fair to ask ... 'No matter how good this guy's stats are, how much does he really help his team win?' Just worth contemplating and factoring in, isn't it?

It's also relevant to look at a guy's teammates too. Both are worth looking at. If a guy is never a part of a lot of winning teams, it's relevant to me.

I'm not comparing him to Lin. Lin and nobody having a legitimate scouting report on him vs Dragic and being a known commodity are two completely different scenarios. Tell me, when he led the Suns to a 48 win season in 2013-2014, was he still "not winning?" Was he still "not helping his team win?"

Sorry, but I don't hold **** teammates against guys who don't go far. Just my opinion. Agree to disagree, as usual.

[IllmaticHandler]

Guillermo (Willy).

Oh yeah, it's changed. He's not efficient at all and he's still not a guy who sees the floor that well, but his defense has been solid, his floater goes in even when it shouldn't, and he's been attacking the rim more than any pg we've had since Lin. Advanced stats don't favor his style, but he does put pressure on defenses and has proven me wrong thus far (even though I do still get annoyed with some poor shot selection and missing open guys).

That said, my stance on him going forward is the same.



Why will it cost any team? Miami clearly is rebuilding and has no need for him. Trading Dragic for an expiring creates 17 mill in cap space which they can use.

His floater goes in because it should. Dude has mastered the one hand floater as a guard. Its a legitimate go to move and works more often than it does not. I actually love he is the only Guard in the NBA that can pull it off the way he does on a nightly basis. Makes his game unique even if he is not dunking. Its not a shot that is easy to guard.

I know he's practiced it, but some of them are damn near impossible angles with 2 defenders on them. I went to the Pacers game and it seemed like 2 floaters that went in I started saying "what the **** kind of shot is that" and then lowered my voice as it went in.

lol. I hear you. Its not a traditional move, but I like it. Like even textbooks shots, they will always be head scratching moments with them as well. I know you not high on the dude, but Rose is a guy who I can ride with even with all his warts. I truly understand why even to this day his fan base is freaking huge and he is loved so much. Easy dude to root for. Im actually a fan of this rose more than the other one. Its very rare that dudes like him can adjust and he is doing a good job. I think he can add more skill to his game as time goes on.

[NBA Fan 1234]

His floater goes in because it should. Dude has mastered the one hand floater as a guard. Its a legitimate go to move and works more often than it does not. I actually love he is the only Guard in the NBA that can pull it off the way he does on a nightly basis. Makes his game unique even if he is not dunking. Its not a shot that is easy to guard.

I know he's practiced it, but some of them are damn near impossible angles with 2 defenders on them. I went to the Pacers game and it seemed like 2 floaters that went in I started saying "what the **** kind of shot is that" and then lowered my voice as it went in.

lol. I hear you. Its not a traditional move, but I like it. Like even textbooks shots, they will always be head scratching moments with them as well. I know you not high on the dude, but Rose is a guy who I can ride with even with all his warts. I truly understand why even to this day his fan base is freaking huge and he is loved so much. Easy dude to root for. Im actually a fan of this rose more than the other one. Its very rare that dudes like him can adjust and he is doing a good job. I think he can add more skill to his game as time goes on.

I've gone into way too much detail in the past on why I don't like him

[K_ick_God]

Dragic's team is ****. That cannot be used against him.

Lin's team wasn't at all good when he carried them into the playoffs in his first real playing time. Only after his run did he get back Melo.

Listen, I know teammates matter, of course. But it's not like every player can be excused for a long history of not doing that well in the W/L column. At some point it is fair to ask ... 'No matter how good this guy's stats are, how much does he really help his team win?' Just worth contemplating and factoring in, isn't it?

It's also relevant to look at a guy's teammates too. Both are worth looking at. If a guy is never a part of a lot of winning teams, it's relevant to me.

I'm not comparing him to Lin. Lin and nobody having a legitimate scouting report on him vs Dragic and being a known commodity are two completely different scenarios. Tell me, when he led the Suns to a 48 win season in 2013-2014, was he still "not winning?" Was he still "not helping his team win?"

Sorry, but I don't hold **** teammates against guys who don't go far. Just my opinion. Agree to disagree, as usual.

I do wonder how good certain guys are if they never went that far, and that's a healthy wonder because sports is about winning and losing, not about being good in video games. And whatever you and I agree or disagree with, it is definitely the case that guys who DO win get a lot of credit. Maybe TOO much credit, admittedly.

But it does go the other way too, no matter how bad your teammates are, so it's not that crazy for there to be weight given to the fact that a guy lost pretty consistently, regardless of his teammates.

Pippen is still considered a great, great player. I disagree basically. He was largely helped by MJ.

On the other hand, while nobody thinks Tony Paker is better than Chris Paul, I think it's a closer call than most do. I can't make some complicated statistical case for this, it's just things I've observed. Parker had better teammates but he also got the job done in tough spots. Paul has had some bad moments in tough spots, but yes with lesser teammates and coaching, etc.

My thing is to balance it out. Case by case. You can't excuse every good statistical guy with bad teammates, and you can't go too crazy about some players who succeeded a lot next to some of the best players of all time.

[K_ick_God]

Dragic is signed through 19-20. No gracias.

[K_ick_God]

think of it this way, they gave up 2 1st rounders for dragic. one unprotected. why wouldn't they want something back ?

Because people who've made a dumb trade usually will continue making more dumb trades?

[K_ick_God]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

[Icandoallthings]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

It's probably mostly has to do with the fact that there are only 2 PG on this team. Poorly constructed roster.

[Oscirus]

1. Rose is in charge of the offense so he has the most important job in the house.
2. Unlike Jennings, Rose can and will score on a regular basis so he keeps the defenders honest.
3. He plays good enough defense not to get destroyed by guards.
4. There was some rule written somewhere that Zinger and Melo can't have a good game at the same time so the Knicks need a second good scorer each game.
5. Knicks still rely on their talent to win games as opposed to game plans.

[K_ick_God]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

It's probably mostly has to do with the fact that there are only 2 PG on this team. Poorly constructed roster.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

Dragic isn't good? What?

lol dragic is way better than rose

leadership
passing
scoring

also dragic has probably killed a man before.

He's an up and down player like many decent players. Ideally he's a backup in a role like Jennings'. Doesn't see the floor as well but little steadier and slightly better jumper. More or less a wash, unless you are looking at their salaries.

I don't agree...Dragic has proven to be a legit starting PG in this league. Jennings is best suited as a backup because he has major flaws in his game that would get him exposed if he was counted on to start and give u 30+ minutes every night.

[stuporman]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[NYKMentality85]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

That's a valid point KD. A very good one at that.

We're 1-3 without Rose thus far. Without Rose we've beat Sacramento by 3 points and lost to Cleveland by 32, Golden State by 13 & Denver by 13 without Rose.

Not only that but during Rose's previous 13 games (not including the game he left early againt Phoenix with only 9 minutes of playing time) the Knicks have gone 10-3 while Rose himself has averaged 19.6 points (5.3 Free Throw attempts), 4.6 assists, 4.0 rebounds & 0.7 steals per game off of 98/203 from the field (.482%).

Without Rose's production i highly doubt N.Y would've gone 10-3 during those 13 games... Without D.Rose in action.

It's also a trickle down effect. One could say that having the presence of Rose alone improves and impacts our entire team (from top to bottom). Without Rose as our starting PG, Jennings then becomes our starter which in return weakens our bench ability due to Jennings being our leader of the 2nd unit alongside of Holiday, Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, O'Quinn and at times Porzingis running with Jennings and the Euro's.

Damn do i wish that Rose's monster dunk attempt against Orlando would've gone down. Would've been vintage Rose and would've shut Madison Square Garden down. The arena would've went into an all out frenzy as possibly the dunk of the year.

Dude has regained his athletsim, his floater is becoming a real NBA weapon again and his ability to attack defenses, split defenders, blow past opposing guards one on one along with his driving ability to the rim has really taken pressure off of both a veteran Melo and especially a younger Porzingis.

I truthfully couldn't have asked for more out of Rose heading into the season and come Christmas day he'll even have started & finished 26 of our 1st 30 games (86.6%) and more importantly, currently healthy.

In closing so many teams lack a 3rd option. I'm just thankful and glad that N.Y is no longer one of those teams; due to Melo & K.P now having a 3rd option within the form of an attacking/scoring PG such as Rose. Last but not least his 4th quarter composure/ability within the clutch only makes this trio that much more difficult to prepare for and then defend.

[BBALLER4FR]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I was just about to post the exact same thing. Beat me to it.

[Icandoallthings]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

It's probably mostly has to do with the fact that there are only 2 PG on this team. Poorly constructed roster.

No I am serious we can't function without at least 2 capable PG. I would like to argue that if Jennings were to go down the team would suffer from a similar decline but I can't..... Iirc I don't believe Jennings has missed a single game this season.
I am not a cap guru but giving Rose anywhere close to $25 will essentially eat all the capspace and leave us with only 1 capable experienced point guard. The team will have very little to spend on a bench and they will routinely lose leads. http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html
You know more about this than I do what would be your approach to the situation? My personal opinion is to keep Jennings (cheap and less risky ) and invest in a bench since guy's like Melo Noah etc all are getting older. We can trade for a point guard in the off-season when we will have assets.

[NYKMentality85]

It's probably mostly has to do with the fact that there are only 2 PG on this team. Poorly constructed roster.

No I am serious we can't function without at least 2 capable PG. I would like to argue that if Jennings were to go down the team would suffer from a similar decline but I can't..... Iirc I don't believe Jennings has missed a single game this season.
I am not a cap guru but giving Rose anywhere close to $25 will essentially eat all the capspace and leave us with only 1 capable experienced point guard. The team will have very little to spend on a bench and they will routinely lose leads. http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html
You know more about this than I do what would be your approach to the situation? My personal opinion is to keep Jennings (cheap and less risky ) and invest in a bench since guy's like Melo Noah etc all are getting older. We can trade for a point guard in the off-season when we will have assets.

Well according to basketball-reference come next year (2017-2018) we'll have exactly $77,290,233 in player salary tied into 10 players (Lee, Melo, K.P, O'Quinn, Noah, Kuzminskas, Hernangomez, Thomas, Plumlee & Ndour).

Does anyone know the NBA's exact number for 2017-2018's expected teams salary cap come next season?

[TruthBeTold]

Can we get any insight into why the team sucked while Rose was out but were good right before he went out and right after he came back?

I'm not a big Rose fan but it probably wasn't pure coincidence.

The same reason why the Knicks will not be as good or might even suck if Melo or KP is not in the starting lineup. A reduction in scoring talent. If KP and Melo is the Knicks two best players, then who is the third? How good are the knicks if 2 of their 3 best players are not playing? I would advice you to ignore the game the Knicks played against the Warriors regarding that last question. I'm not sure the Knicks would have won against the Warriors if fully healthy.

Derrick Rose takes high percentage shots and attack the basket, while KP and Melo rely mostly on mid range Jumpers and 3 pointers for the bulk of their scoring. So when KP and Melo's jumpers are not falling, the Knicks struggle if they don't have a third scorer making shots. Derrick Rose's game complement KP and Melo's game. But I didn't want to say this, because Knicks fans might start to use it as an excuses as to why the (injury prone ) Rose needs to come back. Hey, I just want the best player at the point guard position and that player might not be Rose next season. The more talent the Knicks have, the better they will be. The less talent the Knicks have,.....

[fresko024]

D Rose has been great for us this year. We have been terrible without him. He's been healthy for the past two years but we can't just ignore his injury history.

He's approaching 30 and I highly doubt the Knicks or any other NBA franchise will give him a max deal. That being said, his cap hold is 22 million next year. An extension making $10 million per year for 3 years max would still leave us with about $20 million to spend.

Rose becoming a free agent won't be the worse thing but we will have to renounce him so his cap hold doesn't count against the cap, and we can sign other players. Renouncing him means losing Rose's bird rights tho

Who's going to replace his production?
Some free agents PGs are Curry (not leaving GS), Paul (old), Lowry (okay), Holiday (injury prone), Teague (sign me up), Hill (okay)

There are capable free agents but with the cap set to explode, I see most of them going back to their respective teams for longer deals.

The question is what's the alternative to not extending Rose at a reasonable contract?

[fresko024]

No I am serious we can't function without at least 2 capable PG. I would like to argue that if Jennings were to go down the team would suffer from a similar decline but I can't..... Iirc I don't believe Jennings has missed a single game this season.
I am not a cap guru but giving Rose anywhere close to $25 will essentially eat all the capspace and leave us with only 1 capable experienced point guard. The team will have very little to spend on a bench and they will routinely lose leads. http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html
You know more about this than I do what would be your approach to the situation? My personal opinion is to keep Jennings (cheap and less risky ) and invest in a bench since guy's like Melo Noah etc all are getting older. We can trade for a point guard in the off-season when we will have assets.

Well according to basketball-reference come next year (2017-2018) we'll have exactly $77,290,233 in player salary tied into 10 players (Lee, Melo, K.P, O'Quinn, Noah, Kuzminskas, Hernangomez, Thomas, Plumlee & Ndour).

Does anyone know the NBA's exact number for 2017-2018's expected teams salary cap come next season?

No one knows the exact number but the projected is $102 million.

[fresko024]

It's probably mostly has to do with the fact that there are only 2 PG on this team. Poorly constructed roster.

No I am serious we can't function without at least 2 capable PG. I would like to argue that if Jennings were to go down the team would suffer from a similar decline but I can't..... Iirc I don't believe Jennings has missed a single game this season.
I am not a cap guru but giving Rose anywhere close to $25 will essentially eat all the capspace and leave us with only 1 capable experienced point guard. The team will have very little to spend on a bench and they will routinely lose leads. http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html
You know more about this than I do what would be your approach to the situation? My personal opinion is to keep Jennings (cheap and less risky ) and invest in a bench since guy's like Melo Noah etc all are getting older. We can trade for a point guard in the off-season when we will have assets.

This is true but we have most of our bench signed to multiple years (LT, Kooz, WHG, O'Quinn). We have a few draft picks this year. Jennings is not a starting PG, keeping him in a bench role would be ideal. Giving 20 mill to Rose would not be ideal either...