Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 2: End This Knightmare!

Zelaznyrules · Post #81 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:35 am

History says that when the going gets tough, Goran quits on his team. He did it to us twice, it can only help us in the long run if he stays long enough in Miami to become disenchanted. First he'll mope, then he'll disappear. He'll gradually destroy his trade value and before long, Ainge will be forced to include a middling first round pick just to move him for someone like Aaron Brooks.

RunDogGun · Post #82 » by **RunDogGun** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:24 am

Zelaznyrules wrote:History says that when the going gets tough, Goran quits on his team. He did it to us twice, it can only help us in the long run if he stays long enough in Miami to become disenchanted. First he'll mope, then he'll disappear. He'll gradually destroy his trade value and before long, Ainge will be forced to include a middling first round pick just to move him for someone like Aaron Brooks.

Nicola Mirotic says, "middling?" "Who are you calling middling?" :wink:

alphagorilla · Post #83 » by **alphagorilla** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:18 pm

If Miami is in rebuild mode what kind of a package could we offer for Whiteside?

SideSwipe · Post #84 » by **SideSwipe** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:39 pm

alphagorilla wrote:If Miami is in rebuild mode what kind of a package could we offer for Whiteside?

Filler and their picks back. That is what they will want, and the value won't be too far off.

Post #85 » by **bwgood77** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:59 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:History says that when the going gets tough, Goran quits on his team. He did it to us twice, it can only help us in the long run if he stays long enough in Miami to become disenchanted. First he'll mope, then he'll disappear. He'll gradually destroy his trade value and before long, Ainge will be forced to include a middling first round pick just to move him for someone like Aaron Brooks.

Nicola Mirotic says, "middling?" "Who are you calling middling?"

Ainge will have a very hard time moving Dragic as well.

carey · Post #86 » by **carey** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:45 pm

SideSwipe wrote:
alphagorilla wrote:If Miami is in rebuild mode what kind of a package could we offer for Whiteside?

Filler and their picks back. That is what they will want, and the value won't be too far off.

Why would you want him? He is about as overrated as they come. If you guys listen to the LeBatard local hour at all you will hear them rag on him all the time. Their defense is worse when he is on the floor. He is very inconsistent. He never passes. Like ever. His offensive game is very limited. He is already whining about not getting the ball enough & people always forget he is already 27.

AtheJ415 · Post #87 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:54 pm

SideSwipe wrote:
alphagorilla wrote:If Miami is in rebuild mode what kind of a package could we offer for Whiteside?

Filler and their picks back. That is what they will want, and the value won't be too far off.

Whiteside isn't worth trading for. Signing sure, but not trading. He has his own red flags and is 27, which is a bit old for our core.

Zelaznyrules · Post #88 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:00 pm

I'd greatly prefer Whiteside to Okafor, Noel or Monroe. But even still, no thanks to Whiteside unless he's dirt cheap.

AtheJ415 · Post #89 » by **AtheJ415** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:24 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:I'd greatly prefer Whiteside to Okafor, Noel or Monroe. But even still, no thanks to Whiteside unless he's dirt cheap.

Age matters. One is 27 and getting paid a max. I would probably go:

Noel, Okafor, Whiteside, Monroe for this team. It would depend on Noel's extension number and knees though. I don't think any are great.

Whiteside is obviously the best player currently of that group, but at 27 and with his own red flags (immature, doesn't practice hard, not a team guy, Miami shopping him before his extension, long history of advanced stats not reflecting raw numbers, complaining about shots even though he's only gifted at defense), I don't see how he fits. When we are ready to contend he'll be at best 30 and at worst 32 or 33. On the plus side, he got a late start so doesn't have the ware and tear many 27 year olds have.

We need a center closer to the age of Warren, Booker, Chriss, and Bender. Preferably somebody who can be paired with Len.

Weemsickew14 · Post #90 » by **Weemsickew14** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:46 pm

Whiteside is a top 7 center in the NBA. How some of you would prefer Noel or Okafor over him is crazy. Okay he is being paid the max, but next summer Noel is a free agent so he will request a crazy amount of money. Jahlil Okafor is young and great offensively but he cannot defend for his life so that wouldn't help us either. Whiteside is a top defensive big in the league. He gets a double double every night, shoots 55% and is a premier big-man defender in the NBA. If we could get Whiteside for a decent offer, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

carey · Post #91 » by **carey** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:53 pm

Think of Whiteside as the Rondo of the Center position. Constantly selling out defensive positioning for blocks. They go from allowing 106 pts per 100 possessions to 98 when Whiteside is on versus when he's off. It's a startling difference and doesn't make much sense. There are surely other factors contributing, but he's making $22M a season, do you want to have to figure that out here?

If you want to talk about his offense just know that it likely won't be the same here. He's currently #1 in the NBA in paint touches per game and #1 in post touches even though he generates no offense from the post.

DaleyBlind · Post #92 » by **DaleyBlind** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:26 am

I would prefer Noel over Okafor, Okafor defensively is pathetic - also think you have to build an offense around him.

Zelaznyrules · Post #93 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:46 am

I wouldn't touch Noel, not even for Knight straight up. I wouldn't gamble on those knees even if they were supporting Embiid's game and Nerlens is no Joel.

AtheJ415 · Post #94 » by **AtheJ415** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:15 am

Weemsickew14 wrote:Whiteside is a top 7 center in the NBA. How some of you would prefer Noel or Okafor over him is crazy. Okay he is being paid the max, but next summer Noel is a free agent so he will request a crazy amount of money. Jahlil Okafor is young and great offensively but he cannot defend for his life so that wouldn't help us either. Whiteside is a top defensive big in the league. He gets a double double every night, shoots 55% and is a premier big-man defender in the NBA. If we could get Whiteside for a decent offer, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

Age matters. Noel is averaging 4 and 2 right now. Exactly how much do you think he'll be requesting?

If you are building around 18-24 year olds, you don't go after 27 year old max centers with character issues who are top 7 at their position, which is one of the weakest position groups in the NBA.

Unless we're getting a Steph Curry or Kevin Durant-type talent, we shouldn't be looking for ANYBODY who is 27 or older. By the time the rest of the team is good enough they will be on the downside of their career, and all they will have done is serve to get us worse draft picks by winning meaningless games, stand in the way of the development of the youngsters, and if we're lucky provide leadership--but that will NEVER happen with Whiteside who is one of the worst leaders in the NBA.

If we got Whiteside for a decent offer, we would climb to the dreaded 9th-10th spot in the West and tie up a huge amount of cap space limiting future flexibility. It's counterproductive.

Zelaznyrules · Post #95 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:22 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Weemsickew14 wrote:Whiteside is a top 7 center in the NBA. How some of you would prefer Noel or Okafor over him is crazy. Okay he is being paid the max, but next summer Noel is a free agent so he will request a crazy amount of money. Jahlil Okafor is young and great offensively but he cannot defend for his life so that wouldn't help us either. Whiteside is a top defensive big in the league. He gets a double double every night, shoots 55% and is a premier big-man defender in the NBA. If we could get Whiteside for a decent offer, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

Age matters. Noel is averaging 4 and 2 right now. Exactly how much do you think he'll be requesting?

If you are building around 18-24 year olds, you don't go after 27 year old max centers with character issues who are top 7 at their position, which is one of the weakest position groups in the NBA.

Unless we're getting a Steph Curry or Kevin Durant-type talent, we shouldn't be looking for ANYBODY who is 27 or older. By the time the rest of the team is good enough they will be on the downside of their career, and all they will have done is serve to get us worse draft picks by winning meaningless games, stand in the way of the development of the youngsters, and if we're lucky provide leadership--but that will NEVER happen with Whiteside who is one of the worst leaders in the NBA.

If we got Whiteside for a decent offer, we would climb to the dreaded 9th-10th spot in the West and tie up a huge amount of cap space limiting future flexibility. It's counterproductive.

When you say all this to make a case against Whiteside, I completely agree. If you use this same reasoning to justify going after Noel or Okafor instead of Whiteside, I don't. Value is still value. Noel has very little but doesn't realize it. This next contract has been on his mind for 2 years and there's a reason his own team made little effort to keep him and remember, that happened at a point where they still lacked confidence in Embiid's future. And Okafor, what can I say? Our game last night should have quieted the "I want Jahlil" crowd.

carey · Post #96 » by **carey** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:35 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
If we got Whiteside for a decent offer, we would climb to the dreaded 9th-10th spot in the West and tie up a huge amount of cap space limiting future flexibility. It's counterproductive.

No we wouldn't.

Post #97 » by **Qwigglez** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:51 am

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gusa7ft

YouTube · Post #98 » by **Kerrsed** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:25 am

Since i think we all know that one of our major weaknesses is the C spot (Our future C), and a lot of names have been thrown about, anyone have interest in Vucevic?

Read on Twitter

Seems they prefer Biyombo as he looks to be a bit of a better fit next to Ibaka. It looks to me that they are looking more at a "win now" window and might be looking for some pieces to help them accomplish that.

Maybe something like Bledsoe/Chandler/Tucker for Vucevic/Payton/Green ?

Payton is like a rawer version of Bledsoe. I mean Bledsoe was more advanced at his age, but i also feel like Bledsoe has regressed quite a bit since he left the Clippers and joined the Suns. Vucevic would give us another young C, a better offensive and defensive version of Len, while Orlando benefits from Chandler coming off the bench behind Biyombo. Tucker gives them a more established defensive vet at the wing position, while we get Greens expiring.

Im sure we could get better value from Bledsoe and Chandler from other teams, but overall, i dont think this is that bad, and may be a bit more realistic than most would like to admit.

Zelaznyrules · Post #99 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:32 am

Kerrsed wrote:Since i think we all know that one of our major weaknesses is the C spot (Our future C), and a lot of names have been thrown about, anyone have interest in Vucevic?

I disagree. I think small forward and power forward are far bigger weaknesses right now although with Warren back, hopefully that takes care of that one. And we have hope that Chriss or Bender will take care of the 4 spot. But I still believe in Len. I think he's better than either Okafor or Noel and carries far less baggage than one of them and far few injury concerns than the other. I'd love to find a Noel type that had good knees and didn't think he was a superstar in the making but I'd want him as Len's backup, not replacement.

AtheJ415 · Post #100 » by **AtheJ415** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:31 am

Zelaznyrules wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Weemsickew14 wrote:Whiteside is a top 7 center in the NBA. How some of you would prefer Noel or Okafor over him is crazy. Okay he is being paid the max, but next summer Noel is a free agent so he will request a crazy amount of money. Jahlil Okafor is young and great offensively but he cannot defend for his life so that wouldn't help us either. Whiteside is a top defensive big in the league. He gets a double double every night, shoots 55% and is a premier big-man defender in the NBA. If we could get Whiteside for a decent offer, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

Age matters. Noel is averaging 4 and 2 right now. Exactly how much do you think he'll be requesting?

If you are building around 18-24 year olds, you don't go after 27 year old max centers with character issues who are top 7 at their position, which is one of the weakest position groups in the NBA.

Unless we're getting a Steph Curry or Kevin Durant-type talent, we shouldn't be looking for ANYBODY who is 27 or older. By the time the rest of the team is good enough they will be on the downside of their career, and all they will have done is serve to get us worse draft picks by winning meaningless games, stand in the way of the development of the youngsters, and if we're lucky provide leadership--but that will NEVER happen with Whiteside who is one of the worst leaders in the NBA.

If we got Whiteside for a decent offer, we would climb to the dreaded 9th-10th spot in the West and tie up a huge amount of cap space limiting future flexibility. It's counterproductive.

When you say all this to make a case against Whiteside, I completely agree. If you use this same reasoning to justify going after Noel or Okafor instead of Whiteside, I don't. Value is still value. Noel has very little but doesn't realize it. This next contract has been on his mind for 2 years and there's a reason his own team made little effort to keep him and remember, that happened at a point where they still lacked confidence in Embiid's future. And Okafor, what can I say? Our game last night should have quieted the "I want Jahlil" crowd.

1. Wanting a lot of money doesn't mean you get a lot of money. Noel can want what he wants, but if his play doesn't show it on his next team in the half a season he gets, he won't be getting paid a ton relative to market value.

2. Value is still value, but Whiteside's value to the Phoenix Suns is 0. Okafor and Noel, due to age and potential, could at least have a positive value in 3 years, which makes them more valuable to us. Besides, Whiteside makes $22 mil while Noel and Okafor are capped under the CBA.