Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 2: End This Knightmare!

[NavLDO]

Since i think we all know that one of our major weaknesses is the C spot (Our future C), and a lot of names have been thrown about, anyone have interest in Vucevic?

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Seems they prefer Biyombo as he looks to be a bit of a better fit next to Ibaka. It looks to me that they are looking more at a "win now" window and might be looking for some pieces to help them accomplish that.

Maybe something like Bledsoe/Chandler/Tucker for Vucevic/Payton/Green ?

Payton is like a rawer version of Bledsoe. I mean Bledsoe was more advanced at his age, but i also feel like Bledsoe has regressed quite a bit since he left the Clippers and joined the Suns. Vucevic would give us another young C, a better offensive and defensive version of Len, while Orlando benefits from Chandler coming off the bench behind Biyombo. Tucker gives them a more established defensive vet at the wing position, while we get Greens expiring.

Im sure we could get better value from Bledsoe and Chandler from other teams, but overall, i dont think this is that bad, and may be a bit more realistic than most would like to admit.

I'm fine with the trade, and the value, but I disagree, obviously, on the characterization of Len vs Vucevic, but if we could get them both the minutes they need, I'd prefer Len/Vucevic to Len/Chandler going forward. And Payton in place for Bledsoe would fit better for our rebuild as well. It would be a gamble, but honestly, I do not see Bledsoe as our future PG. 2 years ago?? Sure, but not now, and Vucevic and Payton are closer to what we need than Chandler/Bledsoe. Perfect?? No, but as you said, likely more realistic, value-wise.

[Kerrsed]

Since i think we all know that one of our major weaknesses is the C spot (Our future C), and a lot of names have been thrown about, anyone have interest in Vucevic?

I disagree. I think small forward and power forward are far bigger weaknesses right now although with Warren back, hopefully that takes care of that one. And we have hope that Chriss or Bender will take care of the 4 spot. But I still believe in Len. I think he's better than either Okafor or Noel and carries far less baggage than one of them and far few injury concerns than the other. I'd love to find a Noel type that had good knees and didn't think he was a superstar in the making but I'd want him as Len's backup, not replacement.

I meant for our future, hence why i had "Our Future C" in parenthesis. Our future for SF/PF is currently covered by Warren/Chriss/Bender. Warren has already shown some real promise at SF. Chriss has shown a few flashes at PF, but is still really raw. Bender is a SF that we are trying to make a PF. It might happen, it might not. Len has had 4 years now to prove himself, and yet he really hasnt. He has a few games here and there, but then reverts to the old Len that we have become accustomed to. We are in 2nd to last place in the league, have a pretty young squad, yet are relying on a 35 year old, all because Len hasnt been able to assert himself.

[AtheJ415]

Think of Whiteside as the Rondo of the Center position. Constantly selling out defensive positioning for blocks. They go from allowing 106 pts per 100 possessions to 98 when Whiteside is on versus when he's off. It's a startling difference and doesn't make much sense. There are surely other factors contributing, but he's making $22M a season, do you want to have to figure that out here?

If you want to talk about his offense just know that it likely won't be the same here. He's currently #1 in the NBA in paint touches per game and #1 in post touches even though he generates no offense from the post.

This. He's the king of raw stats that suggest he's on a level he simply isn't. Rondo was the same way. Rubio to an extent does this with assists. It's a misnomer that fools so many.

[thamadkant]

The only real thing impressive about Whiteside is his shot blocking... And he gets tons because he leaves his man and breaks defensive position to get them. I mean... I understand the term weakside blocker... But that usually means you help down low or anywhere inside near your vicinity. Whiteside likes to roam further out. But kudos to him. He is probably just a tad below Deandre Jordan overall.... Still better than anyone on the Suns... And Len is about to get similar money so...

[NavLDO]

The only real thing impressive about Whiteside is his shot blocking... And he gets tons because he leaves his man and breaks defensive position to get them. I mean... I understand the term weakside blocker... But that usually means you help down low or anywhere inside near your vicinity. Whiteside likes to roam further out. But kudos to him. He is probably just a tad below Deandre Jordan overall.... Still better than anyone on the Suns... And Len is about to get similar money so...

You've got to be joking if you think Len's agent is going to be able to score a $24.6M per contract for Len. Even after a year's inflation of the market, Len will be extremely lucky to even get 75% of Whiteside's contract. That's a bit hyperbole talking there. Whiteside averaged a dbl-dbl for two seasons; Len hasn't come close even once.

No, Len will get paid, but not 'Whiteside-paid'...

[bwgood77]

I would prefer Noel over Okafor, Okafor defensively is pathetic - also think you have to build an offense around him.

I'd prefer Len to both.

[Scutt]

I meant for our future, hence why i had "Our Future C" in parenthesis. Our future for SF/PF is currently covered by Warren/Chriss/Bender. Warren has already shown some real promise at SF. Chriss has shown a few flashes at PF, but is still really raw. Bender is a SF that we are trying to make a PF. It might happen, it might not. Len has had 4 years now to prove himself, and yet he really hasnt. He has a few games here and there, but then reverts to the old Len that we have become accustomed to. We are in 2nd to last place in the league, have a pretty young squad, yet are relying on a 35 year old, all because Len hasnt been able to assert himself.

Alex Len is 23 years old and when given starter minutes, he puts up like 10, 10, and 2 with good defense. He obviously has confidence issues, which certainly are not helped out by the up and down minutes he is given. Not to mention the whole dysfunction of our team and lack of any offensive system. How hasn't he proven himself? Yet you seem to really like Noel. Someone who puts up similar numbers, yet has health and attitude concerns, and cannot even put on enough weight after 4 years to be a true center.

[bwgood77]

I meant for our future, hence why i had "Our Future C" in parenthesis. Our future for SF/PF is currently covered by Warren/Chriss/Bender. Warren has already shown some real promise at SF. Chriss has shown a few flashes at PF, but is still really raw. Bender is a SF that we are trying to make a PF. It might happen, it might not. Len has had 4 years now to prove himself, and yet he really hasnt. He has a few games here and there, but then reverts to the old Len that we have become accustomed to. We are in 2nd to last place in the league, have a pretty young squad, yet are relying on a 35 year old, all because Len hasnt been able to assert himself.

Alex Len is 23 years old and when given starter minutes, he puts up like 10, 10, and 2 with good defense. He obviously has confidence issues, which certainly are not helped out by the up and down minutes he is given. Not to mention the whole dysfunction of our team and lack of any offensive system. How hasn't he proven himself? Yet you seem to really like Noel. Someone who puts up similar numbers, yet has health and attitude concerns, and cannot even put on enough weight after 4 years to be a true center.

Noel is better defensively on perimeter, but we have that in Bender. Len is a better rebounder and possibly a better shot blocker. Add in potential injury risk and attitude and Len being on the team that has cultivated him, Noel isn't worth it.

My preference. Keep Chandler until next trade deadline to mentor young guys, and possibly until the 2018 offseason or even the one after that. Draft a center in this year's draft with our 2nd round pick or hope Williams pans out. If not, draft DeAndre Ayton next year with one of our two lottery picks, or at least likely top 15 picks (likely at least one being mid lottery, if not both), and in that case trade Chandler mid season the following year, or if Len, Bender/Chriss and Alan Williams can play some center, trade him in the offseason anyway if possible. Chandler could probably still be a good mentor and/or player/coach in final year and perhaps join our staff as a coach after that.

[thamadkant]

The only real thing impressive about Whiteside is his shot blocking... And he gets tons because he leaves his man and breaks defensive position to get them. I mean... I understand the term weakside blocker... But that usually means you help down low or anywhere inside near your vicinity. Whiteside likes to roam further out. But kudos to him. He is probably just a tad below Deandre Jordan overall.... Still better than anyone on the Suns... And Len is about to get similar money so...

You've got to be joking if you think Len's agent is going to be able to score a $24.6M per contract for Len. Even after a year's inflation of the market, Len will be extremely lucky to even get 75% of Whiteside's contract. That's a bit hyperbole talking there. Whiteside averaged a dbl-dbl for two seasons; Len hasn't come close even once.

No, Len will get paid, but not 'Whiteside-paid'...

He's going to get 4 year 70-75 million.
Not as much as Whiteside but close to 20 million is "similar" to me. And thats sickenning.

[thamadkant]

I like Len but hate his offense game... He needs to stop trying take awful shots. Bring it down... Give the ball back to someone else... Like Adams.


But he is not worth 17-18 million a year. The Suns are rebuilding and that money is too much for a center that is 50/50 as a cornerstone... Look at Blazers... They are messed up for the next 4 or so years.... Paying 15 plus million to players who are either role players or non corner stones.

As I said... 12-14 million... I can stomach. McD needs to prove his negotiation skills....

[Zelaznyrules]

The only real thing impressive about Whiteside is his shot blocking... And he gets tons because he leaves his man and breaks defensive position to get them. I mean... I understand the term weakside blocker... But that usually means you help down low or anywhere inside near your vicinity. Whiteside likes to roam further out. But kudos to him. He is probably just a tad below Deandre Jordan overall.... Still better than anyone on the Suns... And Len is about to get similar money so...

You've got to be joking if you think Len's agent is going to be able to score a $24.6M per contract for Len. Even after a year's inflation of the market, Len will be extremely lucky to even get 75% of Whiteside's contract. That's a bit hyperbole talking there. Whiteside averaged a dbl-dbl for two seasons; Len hasn't come close even once.

No, Len will get paid, but not 'Whiteside-paid'...

He's going to get 4 year 70-75 million.

Not as much as Whiteside but close to 20 million is "similar" to me. And thats sickenning.

IIRC the salary cap when we signed Markieff was in the low 60's (70 by the time it kicked in) and a lot of people called his deal a major bargain. With the cap going up to 120 in the near future, 20 million a year just isn't that scary of a deal. IMO, Len has one major weakness. Far too often he picks up a couple of quick fouls and gets sent to the bench for the rest of the half. Some of the fans here seem to think his restricted minutes are the fault of the coaches but it's all on him. He has to stop reaching and he has to save his fouls. If he does that, we have a guy that should be able to average 15 and 12 longterm while playing solid D. 20 M per is a bargain in today's numbers.

[Zelaznyrules]

Age matters. Noel is averaging 4 and 2 right now. Exactly how much do you think he'll be requesting?

If you are building around 18-24 year olds, you don't go after 27 year old max centers with character issues who are top 7 at their position, which is one of the weakest position groups in the NBA.

Unless we're getting a Steph Curry or Kevin Durant-type talent, we shouldn't be looking for ANYBODY who is 27 or older. By the time the rest of the team is good enough they will be on the downside of their career, and all they will have done is serve to get us worse draft picks by winning meaningless games, stand in the way of the development of the youngsters, and if we're lucky provide leadership--but that will NEVER happen with Whiteside who is one of the worst leaders in the NBA.

If we got Whiteside for a decent offer, we would climb to the dreaded 9th-10th spot in the West and tie up a huge amount of cap space limiting future flexibility. It's counterproductive.

When you say all this to make a case against Whiteside, I completely agree. If you use this same reasoning to justify going after Noel or Okafor instead of Whiteside, I don't. Value is still value. Noel has very little but doesn't realize it. This next contract has been on his mind for 2 years and there's a reason his own team made little effort to keep him and remember, that happened at a point where they still lacked confidence in Embiid's future. And Okafor, what can I say? Our game last night should have quieted the "I want Jahlil" crowd.

1. Wanting a lot of money doesn't mean you get a lot of money. Noel can want what he wants, but if his play doesn't show it on his next team in the half a season he gets, he won't be getting paid a ton relative to market value.

2. Value is still value, but Whiteside's value to the Phoenix Suns is 0. Okafor and Noel, due to age and potential, could at least have a positive value in 3 years, which makes them more valuable to us. Besides, Whiteside makes $22 mil while Noel and Okafor are capped under the CBA.

You make too much of his age IMO. He's 27 but he's very low mileage. As a matter of fact, his career NBA game time exceeds the oft-injured Noel by a mere 122 minutes. For his type of game, I see no reason he shouldn't have an extended career. I don't want him, don't mistake what I'm saying. I just think that he's so much better than either Noel or Okafor that there's no reason to choose either of them over Hassan. Hassan is only about himself, he is not my idea of a team player. But on his worst day he's still far more valuable than Noel or Okafor IMO.

[asudevil]

I like Len but hate his offense game... He needs to stop trying take awful shots. Bring it down... Give the ball back to someone else... Like Adams.


But he is not worth 17-18 million a year. The Suns are rebuilding and that money is too much for a center that is 50/50 as a cornerstone... Look at Blazers... They are messed up for the next 4 or so years.... Paying 15 plus million to players who are either role players or non corner stones.

As I said... 12-14 million... I can stomach. McD needs to prove his negotiation skills....

Giving Len 12-14mil has NOTHING to do with McD's negotiation skills.....and has EVERYTHING to do with the rest of the NBA. Is Len worth 12-14mil? Yes. Is he going to demand more than that? Yes. Is he going to get offered more by another team? Probably.

You arent going to negotiate down to 12-14mil, when the market has already stated that he can get more than that.

Biyombo - 4/72 - $18mil per
Noah - 4/72 - $18mil per
Mozgov - 4/64 - $16mil per
Plumlee - 4/50 - $12.5mil per
Adams - 4/100 - $25mil per

Miles freaking Plumlee got 12.5mil per....and he's averaging 3/2. Do you honestly believe Len is worth the same? Len is going to get anywhere between 16-20mil, and at this point i'm guessing he'll end up on the higher end of that....because Adams banked out after a 8/7/1 season which Len is outpacing right now.

[Zelaznyrules]

I like Len but hate his offense game... He needs to stop trying take awful shots. Bring it down... Give the ball back to someone else... Like Adams.


But he is not worth 17-18 million a year. The Suns are rebuilding and that money is too much for a center that is 50/50 as a cornerstone... Look at Blazers... They are messed up for the next 4 or so years.... Paying 15 plus million to players who are either role players or non corner stones.

As I said... 12-14 million... I can stomach. McD needs to prove his negotiation skills....

I'm pretty sure you're going to have a very unhappy stomach. I argued over the summer (elsewhere) that we should just give him 15 Million even though that appeared to be an absurd overpayment at the time. But when Plumlee's deal came in and then all those others that followed, it was clear that we weren't getting him for that price. And after he played so horribly in the preseason, I was all for just letting him walk. But after the first few regular season games, he's actually played fairly well most nights and he's shown the potential to be an impact player.

I'm confident someone will offer him the max or thereabouts and I think we have to match it. I wouldn't have said that a month ago but things change and IMO we can't just lose an asset like him for nothing. Three years from now I expect him to be a top 10 center at worst. As long as he can get control of his foul problems his max will be a reasonable deal. I don't know which way the front office will go but I really hope they see the writing on the wall. If they still have doubts about his worth, they need to move him by the trade deadline.

[Bogyo]

I wanted Jah to have a combo of Lend and him in the future. Noel, Whiteside and Jah have major problems (health, attitude, arguably less offense than Len, or no D at all, etc...). So now I'm pretty much in the "stand pat" group as far as our C situation goes. Keep Chandler for the season, let him rest a lot and make Len the starter in the second half of the season, resign him for a fair market value in the offseason.
He will rebound, block shots and make putbacks for 15-17 mil per - that's reality. Not that I love it, but I think thats better overall than the list asudevil put up here ^, or Whitesides 24 mil per, or Noel's 20 mil per - becouse you know some fool GM will pay him that, simply becouse he's been hyped up more than Len on some of his highlight blocks... Len will probably never be an allstar, but he will provide OK contribution from the 5 spot for our young team in the next 4 years after his new contract. Championships are not won by the bigguys anyways. He will not be a liability on D nor on O, and likely he will not pout or ruin chemistry. Let him develop a bit more in the next two years, pay him and we'll be set at the starting C spot for the forseeable future.

[LacosteM]

Right now Len is worth somewhere around " Mozgov territory imo". Still I'm not sure what organization should do with him. His stagnant improving is what worries me the most about him.

[Bogyo]

Right now Len is worth somewhere around " Mozgov territory imo". Still I'm not sure what organization should do with him. His stagnant improving is what worries me the most about him.

I think he is a lot better than Mozgov, and will have a lot better career. I see him as a very rich mans Robin Lopez in a year or two, when he is full-time starter. 12/10/2 in 30 mins is totally realistic the way I see him.

[OGBAH]

http://teamstre.am/2ipDPky

[kennydorglas]

"Saying the rest of the league doesn't view Cousins as a cornerstone is different than saying he's not valuable. It's just that in today's game, poorer facsimiles (think Greg Monroe, Al Jefferson, Enes Kanter, even Jahlil Okafor) are second-unit pieces."

Cannot agree more.

[Fo-Real]

I may have been too rash about Oakfor after after the Sixers game. As a Sixers fan pointed out, that game seemed to be an out of character for him (only taking like 4-5 shots). A new situation, offensive flow, good passers like Booker and a pg like Bledsoe could make him an entirely different animal.