Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 2: End This Knightmare!

[Frank Lee]

Since i think we all know that one of our major weaknesses is the C spot (Our future C), and a lot of names have been thrown about, anyone have interest in Vucevic?

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Seems they prefer Biyombo as he looks to be a bit of a better fit next to Ibaka. It looks to me that they are looking more at a "win now" window and might be looking for some pieces to help them accomplish that.

Maybe something like Bledsoe/Chandler/Tucker for Vucevic/Payton/Green ?

Payton is like a rawer version of Bledsoe. I mean Bledsoe was more advanced at his age, but i also feel like Bledsoe has regressed quite a bit since he left the Clippers and joined the Suns. Vucevic would give us another young C, a better offensive and defensive version of Len, while Orlando benefits from Chandler coming off the bench behind Biyombo. Tucker gives them a more established defensive vet at the wing position, while we get Greens expiring.

Im sure we could get better value from Bledsoe and Chandler from other teams, but overall, i dont think this is that bad, and may be a bit more realistic than most would like to admit.

That would go down as one of the most drastic viscerations ever. But, it looks to be, at least feasible on the apple orange circuit.

Kind of crap cans the 'family' dynamic Coach Feelgood has created though.

[thamadkant]

I may have been too rash about Oakfor after after the Sixers game. As a Sixers fan pointed out, that game seemed to be an out of character for him (only taking like 4-5 shots). A new situation, offensive flow, good passers like Booker and a pg like Bledsoe could make him an entirely different animal.

Where's the /s?


Because with the current system and inner fight regarding shots... Okafor will probably get Chandler'd or Len'd.... Meaning lobs and inaccurate passes are all he's gonna get.

[AtheJ415]

When you say all this to make a case against Whiteside, I completely agree. If you use this same reasoning to justify going after Noel or Okafor instead of Whiteside, I don't. Value is still value. Noel has very little but doesn't realize it. This next contract has been on his mind for 2 years and there's a reason his own team made little effort to keep him and remember, that happened at a point where they still lacked confidence in Embiid's future. And Okafor, what can I say? Our game last night should have quieted the "I want Jahlil" crowd.

1. Wanting a lot of money doesn't mean you get a lot of money. Noel can want what he wants, but if his play doesn't show it on his next team in the half a season he gets, he won't be getting paid a ton relative to market value.

2. Value is still value, but Whiteside's value to the Phoenix Suns is 0. Okafor and Noel, due to age and potential, could at least have a positive value in 3 years, which makes them more valuable to us. Besides, Whiteside makes $22 mil while Noel and Okafor are capped under the CBA.

You make too much of his age IMO. He's 27 but he's very low mileage. As a matter of fact, his career NBA game time exceeds the oft-injured Noel by a mere 122 minutes. For his type of game, I see no reason he shouldn't have an extended career. I don't want him, don't mistake what I'm saying. I just think that he's so much better than either Noel or Okafor that there's no reason to choose either of them over Hassan. Hassan is only about himself, he is not my idea of a team player. But on his worst day he's still far more valuable than Noel or Okafor IMO.

Whiteside was still playing basketball when he wasn't in the NBA. Yes, he wasn't suffering NBA game wear and tear, but he was still playing, and big guys don't gradually deteriorate--their production tends to fall off a cliff. 5 years of age and development is very significant. It's why you don't see redshirt college seniors who are all americans drafted before freshmen. There's a ton you can do in 5 years to improve your game.

[Zelaznyrules]

1. Wanting a lot of money doesn't mean you get a lot of money. Noel can want what he wants, but if his play doesn't show it on his next team in the half a season he gets, he won't be getting paid a ton relative to market value.

2. Value is still value, but Whiteside's value to the Phoenix Suns is 0. Okafor and Noel, due to age and potential, could at least have a positive value in 3 years, which makes them more valuable to us. Besides, Whiteside makes $22 mil while Noel and Okafor are capped under the CBA.

You make too much of his age IMO. He's 27 but he's very low mileage. As a matter of fact, his career NBA game time exceeds the oft-injured Noel by a mere 122 minutes. For his type of game, I see no reason he shouldn't have an extended career. I don't want him, don't mistake what I'm saying. I just think that he's so much better than either Noel or Okafor that there's no reason to choose either of them over Hassan. Hassan is only about himself, he is not my idea of a team player. But on his worst day he's still far more valuable than Noel or Okafor IMO.

Whiteside was still playing basketball when he wasn't in the NBA. Yes, he wasn't suffering NBA game wear and tear, but he was still playing, and big guys don't gradually deteriorate--their production tends to fall off a cliff. 5 years of age and development is very significant. It's why you don't see redshirt college seniors who are all americans drafted before freshmen. There's a ton you can do in 5 years to improve your game.

I don't want to turn this into an argument but no, he really wasn't. He missed a season because of injury, he was benched for attitude another season and so on. He's had very little wear and tear on his body and he doesn't use his athleticism like someone such as Amare, where we all knew his day would come and come quickly. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to play at least another decade at or near his highest level. That's no reason to go after him, but I don't think age is a reason to avoid him either. I'd bet the odds are greatly in his favor that he outlasts Noel and possibly Okafor too.

As for your final point above, yes it's quite possible that Whiteside, due to his age, is closer to his peak level. So if you want Okafor or Noel because you think they'll grow into better players than Hassan will, you might be right. I don't think it will happen with Okafor for the same reason I don't think Whiteside will ever play to his potential. Neither one of them approaches the game the right way, winning will always be a secondary concern to them. As for Noel, if he could stay healthy I could easily see him becoming more valuable than the other two. I just don't believe he'll ever be able to stay healthy. JMO.

[AtheJ415]

You make too much of his age IMO. He's 27 but he's very low mileage. As a matter of fact, his career NBA game time exceeds the oft-injured Noel by a mere 122 minutes. For his type of game, I see no reason he shouldn't have an extended career. I don't want him, don't mistake what I'm saying. I just think that he's so much better than either Noel or Okafor that there's no reason to choose either of them over Hassan. Hassan is only about himself, he is not my idea of a team player. But on his worst day he's still far more valuable than Noel or Okafor IMO.

Whiteside was still playing basketball when he wasn't in the NBA. Yes, he wasn't suffering NBA game wear and tear, but he was still playing, and big guys don't gradually deteriorate--their production tends to fall off a cliff. 5 years of age and development is very significant. It's why you don't see redshirt college seniors who are all americans drafted before freshmen. There's a ton you can do in 5 years to improve your game.

I don't want to turn this into an argument but no, he really wasn't. He missed a season because of injury, he was benched for attitude another season and so on. He's had very little wear and tear on his body and he doesn't use his athleticism like someone such as Amare, where we all knew his day would come and come quickly. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to play at least another decade at or near his highest level. That's no reason to go after him, but I don't think age is a reason to avoid him either. I'd bet the odds are greatly in his favor that he outlasts Noel and possibly Okafor too.

As for your final point above, yes it's quite possible that Whiteside, due to his age, is closer to his peak level. So if you want Okafor or Noel because you think they'll grow into better players than Hassan will, you might be right. I don't think it will happen with Okafor for the same reason I don't think Whiteside will ever play to his potential. Neither one of them approaches the game the right way, winning will always be a secondary concern to them. As for Noel, if he could stay healthy I could easily see him becoming more valuable than the other two. I just don't believe he'll ever be able to stay healthy. JMO.

1. Missing a season because of injury shows wear and tear. That isn't a pro.
2. Being benched isn't the same as not playing. He was still training and practicing.
3. He does use his athleticism--he just uses it stupidly. He roams around on defense trying to block every shot and selling out. He defends like a moron, which is why he hurts his team on that end, but that doesn't mean he's a low injury risk or that losing his athleticism won't impact that aspect of his game. In fact, his shotblocking is his most valuable trait, and it is directly correlated with his size and athleticism.
4. If you honestly think Whiteside will be putting up the same numbers until he is at least 37, then I don't know what to tell you. That would make his raw stats historic, and mean that he has managed to stay productive at that age better than Dirk, who was much more skill-based relative to athleticism.

[TeamTragic]

Trade Knight. Stop pretending we will get "worse" value.

[OGBAH]

I may have been too rash about Oakfor after after the Sixers game. As a Sixers fan pointed out, that game seemed to be an out of character for him (only taking like 4-5 shots). A new situation, offensive flow, good passers like Booker and a pg like Bledsoe could make him an entirely different animal.

On offense

[OGBAH]

Trade Knight. Stop pretending we will get "worse" value.

Merry Christmas you're traded to China

[OGBAH]

Find a working 3 team trade moving Knight to Portland for someone other then Turner with Lillard hurt they need pg depth and Len going somewhere else...

Ok...go!

[Zelaznyrules]

Whiteside was still playing basketball when he wasn't in the NBA. Yes, he wasn't suffering NBA game wear and tear, but he was still playing, and big guys don't gradually deteriorate--their production tends to fall off a cliff. 5 years of age and development is very significant. It's why you don't see redshirt college seniors who are all americans drafted before freshmen. There's a ton you can do in 5 years to improve your game.

I don't want to turn this into an argument but no, he really wasn't. He missed a season because of injury, he was benched for attitude another season and so on. He's had very little wear and tear on his body and he doesn't use his athleticism like someone such as Amare, where we all knew his day would come and come quickly. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to play at least another decade at or near his highest level. That's no reason to go after him, but I don't think age is a reason to avoid him either. I'd bet the odds are greatly in his favor that he outlasts Noel and possibly Okafor too.

As for your final point above, yes it's quite possible that Whiteside, due to his age, is closer to his peak level. So if you want Okafor or Noel because you think they'll grow into better players than Hassan will, you might be right. I don't think it will happen with Okafor for the same reason I don't think Whiteside will ever play to his potential. Neither one of them approaches the game the right way, winning will always be a secondary concern to them. As for Noel, if he could stay healthy I could easily see him becoming more valuable than the other two. I just don't believe he'll ever be able to stay healthy. JMO.

1. Missing a season because of injury shows wear and tear. That isn't a pro.
2. Being benched isn't the same as not playing. He was still training and practicing.
3. He does use his athleticism--he just uses it stupidly. He roams around on defense trying to block every shot and selling out. He defends like a moron, which is why he hurts his team on that end, but that doesn't mean he's a low injury risk or that losing his athleticism won't impact that aspect of his game. In fact, his shotblocking is his most valuable trait, and it is directly correlated with his size and athleticism.
4. If you honestly think Whiteside will be putting up the same numbers until he is at least 37, then I don't know what to tell you. That would make his raw stats historic, and mean that he has managed to stay productive at that age better than Dirk, who was much more skill-based relative to athleticism.

I was going to accuse you of nitpicking here but I re-read our conversation and realized that you'd already acknowledged that he was a young 27 which I guess makes me the nitpicker. So I'll just end my side of this with the point that I really don't think we're all that far apart. Neither of us wants Whiteside.

[bwgood77]

Find a working 3 team trade moving Knight to Portland for someone other then Turner with Lillard hurt they need pg depth and Len going somewhere else...

Ok...go!

I don't think they would want that salary with all that other salary they have but maybe they'd think about Crabbe for him. However, Crabbe is vastly overpaid and would be our highest paid player, but could be a good sixth man I think, and I'd rather have him than Knight. Would prefer trading him for a pick and/or young player to a team who can absorb his salary though. But if that was our only option, I'd take Crabbe over keeping him much longer.

[asudevil]

Find a working 3 team trade moving Knight to Portland for someone other then Turner with Lillard hurt they need pg depth and Len going somewhere else...

Ok...go!

Suns trade:
Knight/Len
Suns get:
Leonard/Vucevic/Hezonja

Chandler/Vucevic
Chriss/Leonard
Warren/Dudley
Booker/Hezonja
Bledsoe/Ulis/Barbosa

Yeah, this looks like we are adding two overpaid guys. But i'd honestly rather pay Leonard/Vucevic $22.5mil over Knight/Len $30mil next year. This also allows us to move Dudley to a more comfortable SF, and adds some promising youth to back up Booker.

Blazers trade:
Crabb/Leonard
Blazers get:
Knight

Blazers clearly made more than a couple of mistakes this offseason....and are slotted to have this highest payroll next year. Here, they clear two of their terrible contracts, and would allow them to resign Plumlee without destroying their cap position this offseason.

Magic trade:
Vucevic/Hezonja
Magic get:
Len/Crabb

Orlando is in need of scoring. Crabb COULD be the guy to provide that. Currently he's 4th or 5th on the scoring hierarchy, and given more of a priority could double his current production. Clearing Vucevic for Len would give them better D up front, but at the same time could cost considerably more. Given the confidence, he could still be more than an average C for them.

[realEAST]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

What need has the worst team in the west of a near all-star in his prime? What's the benefit of having a player like that on a great contract when there's no way the team can use any cap space it frees up? What if that player is actually not a very good fit with the team's young core?

There's only one answer to the question of this season: Trade Eric Bledsoe. And while you're at it, deal Tucker and Chandler. These players make no sense for this team. And I for one am sick of all the Tucker-love on all the radio- and podcasts I've heard recently. WHO. CARES. How hard he plays. It matters not. We play awful basketball.

Give the team to Tyler, please. Yes, some times we'll get abused. But we'll play the right way. And a better chance of adding Fultz or Ball is no small bonus.

Please end this.

Knight/Ulis
Booker/Barbosa/Jenkins
Warren/Dudley/Jones
Chriss/Bender
Len/Williams

Big improvement. Trade deadline can't come soon enough.

[Zelaznyrules]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

I'd prefer we take the slow approach but I'd have a lot of trouble turning down that offer for the Miami pick, Warren and Chriss.

[DirtyDez]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

Yes Butler/Booker is a great fit but that seems like a weak offer from the Bulls perspective. I would think they'd rather keep Jimmy.

[realEAST]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

I'd prefer we take the slow approach but I'd have a lot of trouble turning down that offer for the Miami pick, Warren and Chriss.

And if it was Warren and Chriss and 2017 PHO or Bender and 2018 MIA? That was my acctual idea

[TeamTragic]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

I'd prefer we take the slow approach but I'd have a lot of trouble turning down that offer for the Miami pick, Warren and Chriss.

And if it was Warren and Chriss and 2017 PHO or Bender and 2018 MIA? That was my acctual idea

We are rebuilding and therefore are not giving up our youth for Butler. Absolutely no on Warren/Bender. Maybe on Chriss.

[realEAST]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

Yes Butler/Booker is a great fit but that seems like a weak offer from the Bulls perspective. I would think they'd rather keep Jimmy.

Ideally, I'd go after Warren, Bender, 2017 PHO, if Suns would do it, just wasnt sure of how you rate it.
I am extra high on Jimmy, but didnt want to burst in with biased offers.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Hi guys, Bulls fan here, admirer of your team and talent, with proposal to take some of it from you. Not to lowball you, I came offering Jimmy Butler.

So what would you say to a deal of:

Jimmy and McDermott

for Warren, Bender or Chriss and 2017 PHO or 2018 MIA.

Not sure how exactly you value those assets, as well as Jimmy, who I belive would be a great fit at Suns, and along Booker, since he is very good defender and can act as second ballhandler.

Yes Butler/Booker is a great fit but that seems like a weak offer from the Bulls perspective. I would think they'd rather keep Jimmy.

Ideally, I'd go after Warren, Bender, 2017 PHO, if Suns would do it, just wasnt sure of how you rate it.
I am extra high on Jimmy, but didnt want to burst in with biased offers.

I think it's a very fair offer. I don't know if McD would take it. I'd prefer to go the opposite direction, so I'd so no, but it's certainly fair.