2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

dautjazz · Post #1101 » by **dautjazz** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:18 pm

AussieBuck wrote:Lebron
Lowry
Giannis
Harden
Westbrook

Bias is showing. Giannis is on mediocre team in the East, how would he be top 5? Where is Leonard? Leonard's team has the 2nd best record in the NBA, he should be above Lowry and Giannis.

jaybiddyforeal · Post #1102 » by **jaybiddyforeal** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:31 pm

dautjazz wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Lebron
Lowry
Giannis
Harden
Westbrook

Bias is showing. Giannis is on mediocre team in the East, how would he be top 5? Where is Leonard? Leonard's team has the 2nd best record in the NBA, he should be above Lowry and Giannis.

Lowry is still leading the best offense ever with a TS of .634 and a 22/7.5/5/1.5 line. Raps are 21-8. He is right there with kawhi

I agree kawhi > Giannis though

dautjazz · Post #1103 » by **dautjazz** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:07 pm

jaybiddyforeal wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Lebron
Lowry
Giannis
Harden
Westbrook

Bias is showing. Giannis is on mediocre team in the East, how would he be top 5? Where is Leonard? Leonard's team has the 2nd best record in the NBA, he should be above Lowry and Giannis.

Lowry is still leading the best offense ever with a TS of .634 and a 22/7.5/5/1.5 line. Raps are 21-8. He is right there with kawhi

I agree kawhi > Giannis though

And? Leonard is a DPOY candidate, and putting up better numbers than Lowry on a much better team.

jaybiddyforeal · Post #1104 » by **jaybiddyforeal** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:23 pm

dautjazz wrote:
jaybiddyforeal wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
Bias is showing. Giannis is on mediocre team in the East, how would he be top 5? Where is Leonard? Leonard's team has the 2nd best record in the NBA, he should be above Lowry and Giannis.

Lowry is still leading the best offense ever with a TS of .634 and a 22/7.5/5/1.5 line. Raps are 21-8. He is right there with kawhi

I agree kawhi > Giannis though

And? Leonard is a DPOY candidate, and putting up better numbers than Lowry on a much better team.

The bolded is wrong. Leonard is great but there is no definitive argument for him over Lowry or for the Spurs being a much better team then the Raptors.

Raps 21-8 against the 3rd hardest SOS in the league so far. Spurs 25-6 with the 18th hardest.

Despite the strength of schedule, Raptors haven't lost by more the 8 points all year and one of their losses was the debacle that was the Sacramento time-keeper screw job. Raps have 2nd best point differential in NBA at +9.6. Spurs are +7.1.

Kawhi - 24/6/3/2 on .608 TS% - 10th in RPM
Lowry - 22/4.5/7.5/1.5 on .634 TS% - 3rd in RPM

Sign me up for Lowry's numbers every day of the week.

Lowry is running the best offense in NBA history while shooting better then Curry so far this year.

Both players bring a lot to the table that don't show up on the stat sheet which is why they are hard to compare but there is no way anyone can say Kawhi is without question above Kyle. If anything, I would argue the opposite.

AussieBuck · Post #1105 » by **AussieBuck** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:25 pm

dautjazz wrote:
jaybiddyforeal wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
Bias is showing. Giannis is on mediocre team in the East, how would he be top 5? Where is Leonard? Leonard's team has the 2nd best record in the NBA, he should be above Lowry and Giannis.

Lowry is still leading the best offense ever with a TS of .634 and a 22/7.5/5/1.5 line. Raps are 21-8. He is right there with kawhi

I agree kawhi > Giannis though

And? Leonard is a DPOY candidate, and putting up better numbers than Lowry on a much better team.

Like I said man I don't follow the winning team convention. We've come a long way since we had to scratch our heads and assume that the high points guy on the best team was MVP. We have a whole bunch of statistical measures now. Kawhi isn't anywhere near a DPOY candidate this season regardless if anyone's paying attention. Giannis should be though. Lowry's has a more extreme version of Giannis' recognition issue. Wasn't a hyped college star/wasn't an immediate star and doesn't play in a right place. If we are doing the thing where we pretend Lebron isn't MVP Lowry's as good a candidate as any.

scrabbarista · Post #1106 » by **scrabbarista** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:45 pm

The day after Christmas, I'd vote:

1. Durant
2. Harden
3. Paul
4. Leonard
5. Westbrook

But I do hope Harden wins the one he should have in '15. Also, seeing Lowry 3rd in RPM is food for thought.

Such a good race this year. Curry and Lebron not even in my Top 5 atm...

nbafan77 · Post #1107 » by **nbafan77** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:06 pm

scrabbarista wrote:The day after Christmas, I'd vote:

1. Durant
2. Harden
3. Paul
4. Leonard
5. Westbrook

But I do hope Harden wins the one he should have in '15. Also, seeing Lowry 3rd in RPM is food for thought.

Such a good race this year. Curry and Lebron not even in my Top 5 atm...

Now please explain how LBJ isn't even in your top five?!

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Triples333 · Post #1108 » by **Triples333** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:21 pm

AussieBuck wrote:
dautjazz wrote:
jaybiddyforeal wrote:
Lowry is still leading the best offense ever with a TS of .634 and a 22/7.5/5/1.5 line. Raps are 21-8. He is right there with kawhi

I agree kawhi > Giannis though

And? Leonard is a DPOY candidate, and putting up better numbers than Lowry on a much better team.

Like I said man I don't follow the winning team convention. We've come a long way since we had to scratch our heads and assume that the high points guy on the best team was MVP. We have a whole bunch of statistical measures now. Kawhi isn't anywhere near a DPOY candidate this season regardless if anyone's paying attention. Giannis should be though. Lowry's has a more extreme version of Giannis' recognition issue. Wasn't a hyped college star/wasn't an immediate star and doesn't play in a right place. If we are doing the thing where we pretend Lebron isn't MVP Lowry's as good a candidate as any.

Seeing as you seem to be a proponent for modern stats and feel it's a "pretend" to realize Lebron is not the MVP, please feel free to illustrate his argument under the advanced-stats umbrella...

RunOKC · Post #1109 » by **RunOKC** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:24 am

1. Westbrook
2. Harden
3. Lebron

MisterHibachi · Post #1110 » by **MisterHibachi** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:31 am

Cavs currently 5th in strength of schedule and 3rd in SRS.

jaybiddyforeal · Post #1111 » by **jaybiddyforeal** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:26 am

MisterHibachi wrote:Cavs currently 5th in strength of schedule and 3rd in SRS.

Raptors 3rd in SOS and 2nd in SRS.

Anyone want to consider Lowry an MVP candidate yet?

mademan · Post #1112 » by **mademan** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:43 am

Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

K_chile22 · Post #1113 » by **K_chile22** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:03 am

mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

As apposed to the Harden-less Rockets or Westbrook-less Thunder? I don't think that's the argument for lebron.

RCM88x · Post #1114 » by **RCM88x** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:19 am

K_chile22 wrote:
mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

As apposed to the Harden-less Rockets or Westbrook-less Thunder? I don't think that's the argument for lebron.

I think the difference is, for the Cavs they go from the 2nd best team to a horrible team. While the Rockets are merely a top 6-7 team and OKC is a top 7-8 team.

OKC would probably be worst than Cleveland if neither had their MVP, but I'd actually think the Rockets would be better than Cleveland.

Not that it really matters. When it comes to MVP, teams should be graded with how good they are playing with the MVP candidate, not without.

SideshowBob · Post #1115 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:21 am

mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

Yes. Love/Irving is actually a great offensive team that would run a top 10ish offense without Lebron, but they are hopelessly reliant on him on the defensive end.

Benedict_Boozer · Post #1116 » by **Benedict_Boozer** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:51 am

mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

This will sound crazy, but I seriously wonder if the Cavs could make the playoffs if LBJ missed an entire season. Just look like such ass without him its insane, guaranteed loss every time he sits.

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K_chile22 · Post #1117 » by **K_chile22** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:55 am

Benedict_Boozer wrote:
mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

This will sound crazy, but I seriously wonder if the Cavs could make the playoffs if LBJ missed an entire season. Just look like such ass without him its insane, guaranteed loss every time he sits.

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LBJ has missed 2 games (Not counting Memphis where love and Kyrie both sat) let's calm down with this small ample size theater

dreamshake · Post #1118 » by **dreamshake** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:08 am

K_chile22 wrote:
Benedict_Boozer wrote:
mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

This will sound crazy, but I seriously wonder if the Cavs could make the playoffs if LBJ missed an entire season. Just look like such ass without him its insane, guaranteed loss every time he sits.

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LBJ has missed 2 games (Not counting Memphis where love and Kyrie both sat) let's calm down with this small ample size theater

Not sure why the last 2 seasons aren't relevant in that discussion. Since the JR/Iman acquisition their core is pretty much unchanged. They're always terrible without LBJ. His on/off splits in the games he does play in further supports this. Defense in particular is awful without him

Saciid11 · Post #1119 » by **Saciid11** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:00 am

1. Westbrook... if he leads the OKC to playoff the MVP is his
2. Harden
3. Lebron ... Stats are not as good as other years, but Cavs without him are not even a playoff team
4. Kawhi
5. Giannis

Triples333 · Post #1120 » by **Triples333** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:40 am

Benedict_Boozer wrote:
mademan wrote:Lebrons the MVP. Man they suck without him

This will sound crazy, but I seriously wonder if the Cavs could make the playoffs if LBJ missed an entire season. Just look like such ass without him its insane, guaranteed loss every time he sits.

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More often than not he is sitting road b2bs (otherwise known as schedule losses). In fact the prior 2 he sat were road b2bs, he knows what he's doing. Interesting to see that it works though.