2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[Triples333]

Couple of points about Lebron's chances on being the MVP (and I don't even really like the guy).

1. It should NOT be used against him that his stats are underwhelming for his own standards. If Lebron is the best candidate but he is not as good as his older versions, so be it. I don't like how there seems to be a higher expectation of a person just because he is expected to be the best.

2. Lebron won many MVPs in the past but that should not be used against him either. If he deserves the MVP every year, I don't care if he wins 10-15 MVPs in a row. I would vote for him every year. There is a common tendency for people to want to spread the wealth but this is just undermining excellence and it sets a poor precedent for sports in which being the best and winning is everything.

3. Taking a poor team to 50 wins is admirable but it is not as difficult as taking an average team to championship level caliber. What Westbrook and Harden are doing should be commended but the degree of difficulty for them is much lower than what Lebron has to work with. Improving from 50 wins to a championship caliber wins is one of the most difficult thing in the NBA and that should not get lost.

They're 1 game ahead of the Rockets and equal in the win column with a win differential that is essential identical at 7.2 to 7.1. The Cavs are performing to expectations, while the Rockets are significantly outperforming expectations (Rox with the tougher SOS and many more road games). His stats are inferior to Harden's. His load is less than Harden's. And to top it off, Harden DOES NOT SIT/REJUVENATE during his teams toughest games (their road b2b's). He's out there every night battling, and that should be major bonus points for him.

So, what's 'Bron's case over Harden, exactly?

His numbers arent much better (as opposed to Westbrook who's killing everybody) and when you include defense, it's very arguable that Lebron has better on court impact. CLE has 7 total losses, 2 of them against sub .500 teams with Lebron sitting. I'd say he has a very good argument against Harden

Well, Harden is 2nd in RPM. Lebron 7th. Westbrook 8th.
Westbrook 1st in PER. Harden 6th. Lebron 9th.
Harden 1st in Win Shares. Westbrook 9th. Lebron outside the top 10.
Westbrook 1st in VORP. Harden 2nd. Lebron 6th.
Harden 119 Orating. James 118. Westbrook 111.

Harden 28/8/12 on a 60% TS.
Westbrook 32/10/11 on a 55% TS.
Lebron 25/8/9 on a 59% TS.

Even excluding the team disparity between Harden/Westbrook (preseason projected to be in favor of OKC, with OKC's toughest month coming now in January), I don't see how Westbrook is "killing him" statistically. In fact I think we can see multiple metrics here that point otherwise.

Harden's the MVP, then Westbrook, then pick your poison between LBJ and KD.

[Homer38]

They're 1 game ahead of the Rockets and equal in the win column with a win differential that is essential identical at 7.2 to 7.1. The Cavs are performing to expectations, while the Rockets are significantly outperforming expectations (Rox with the tougher SOS and many more road games). His stats are inferior to Harden's. His load is less than Harden's. And to top it off, Harden DOES NOT SIT/REJUVENATE during his teams toughest games (their road b2b's). He's out there every night battling, and that should be major bonus points for him.

So, what's 'Bron's case over Harden, exactly?

His numbers arent much better (as opposed to Westbrook who's killing everybody) and when you include defense, it's very arguable that Lebron has better on court impact. CLE has 7 total losses, 2 of them against sub .500 teams with Lebron sitting. I'd say he has a very good argument against Harden

Well, Harden is 2nd in RPM. Lebron 7th. Westbrook 8th.
Westbrook 1st in PER. Harden 6th. Lebron 9th.
Harden 1st in Win Shares. Westbrook 9th. Lebron outside the top 10.
Westbrook 1st in VORP. Harden 2nd. Lebron 6th.
Harden 119 Orating. James 118. Westbrook 111.

Harden 28/8/12 on a 60% TS.
Westbrook 32/10/11 on a 55% TS.
Lebron 25/8/9 on a 59% TS.

Even excluding the team disparity between Harden/Westbrook (preseason projected to be in favor of OKC, with OKC's toughest month coming now in January), I don't see how Westbrook is "killing him" statistically. In fact I think we can see multiple metrics here that point otherwise.

Harden's the MVP, then Westbrook, then pick your poison between LBJ and KD.

The reason why the expectations for the cavs are high is because of LeBron James.The reason why the expectations of the Rockets were low was because last year Houston was bad.

I have no problem with the fact that you think Harden is the MVP, but the expectations should not be a factor since you should not penalize teams and players that are consistent year after year.

Also the rockets have a better teams than the thunder since the thunder are horrible in the 3 points and the rockets are among the best.This is the biggest difference between OKC and Houston.

[miman15]

More often than not he is sitting road b2bs (otherwise known as schedule losses). In fact the prior 2 he sat were road b2bs, he knows what he's doing. Interesting to see that it works though.

So what are you trying to imply?

He is sitting the games they already have the highest chance of losing from a scheduling standpoint and the W/L record "without him" is therefore massively skewed. Is he crucial for them? Clearly. But not nearly so much as these guys posting W/L with no context would have you think.

They are 4-18 without him. Thats the record that is the most eye popping. Are those 18 losses on a back to back? No. The Cavs most probably wouldnt not lose to the likes of pistons and pacers with Lebron even on a back to back. "Schedule loss" is just a lame excuse. Come on now. There is a huge differnce in their play with and without lebron in the lineup. The cavs also won their latest 2nd night of back to back game with Lebron in the lineup.

While i agree Harden is the clear cut favorite for the MVP, no doubt. I credit you for sticking with him from the start. But we know you always try to discredit Lebron, even in the slightest argument. You have an agenda.

[Hero]

It's Lebron's at this point. The difference between when he is on the court and when he rest is just Titanic.

[Triples333]

So what are you trying to imply?

He is sitting the games they already have the highest chance of losing from a scheduling standpoint and the W/L record "without him" is therefore massively skewed. Is he crucial for them? Clearly. But not nearly so much as these guys posting W/L with no context would have you think.

They are 4-18 without him. Thats the record that is the most eye popping. The Cavs most probably wouldnt not lose to the likes of pistons and pacers with Lebron even on a back to back. "Schedule loss" is just a lame excuse.Come on now. There is a huge differnce in their play with and without lebron in the lineup. The cavs also won their latest 2nd night of back to back game with Lebron in the lineup.

While i agree Harden is the clear cut favorite for the MVP, no doubt. We know you always try to discredit Lebron, even in the slightest argument.

Lol no dude, schedule losses are VERY real (you need your whole team to fight against them, and even then it's tough), and taking out your best player in those situations (sometimes all three of them) is a MASSIVE disadvantage for the Cavs. No team outside of possibly this years Warriors can remove their best player and be favorites on the 2nd half of road b2b's (lmao - imagine Harden or Westbrook doing this to their teams? They're getting crushed). While (again) acknowledging his clear/huge positive impact that he brings to the team, I'm not going to reward him for resting and act like that W/L record is not tainted more-so by said schedule-losses (literally the only games he's sat this year by the way). It also gives himself an advantage in the following game health wise as opposed to a guy who is going out there and gutting it out every night. In the years where he rightfully earned his MVP's, especially on the Cavs, he didn't do that. He's older now and going deep in the playoffs and feels that he needs to do this - I understand - but it's a negative on his MVP campaign resume this season, pure and simple. Not the positive some are trying to spin it as. Also worth noting that beyond the b2b factor on these "4-18 without LBJ" mentions, 1/3rd of those have also been without Kyrie (0-6 without 'Bron and Kyrie). Others have been without all of LBJ/Kyrie/Love, or with Kyrie but not Love. Context matters here.

So again, carrying less of a load/playing less games, and lesser production? I don't see him as the MVP over what we're getting from Westbrook and Harden, not at all.

[inquisitive]

It's Lebron's at this point. The difference between when he is on the court and when he rest is just Titanic.

if it is, the media sure isn't talking about it. all i hear is westbrook and harden...lately, a lot more of westbrook.

[RCM88x]

It's Lebron's at this point. The difference between when he is on the court and when he rest is just Titanic.

if it is, the media sure isn't talking about it. all i hear is westbrook and harden...lately, a lot more of westbrook.

The bar is just set so high for LeBron it's really hard for him to beat expectations, which Harden and Westbrook certainly are doing.

Not only that, but I doubt more than 5% of MVP voters actually look past raw numbers and Win/Loss. It's very narrative based, and LeBron doesn't really have that on his side at the moment, unless the Cavs win like 60 games.

I think the big debate will be, does Westbrook deserve it over LeBron if OKC has 45 wins and Cleveland has 60. Not to mention Harden, who could easily win 55 with Houston, and is probably my front runner at the moment.

[Goodfellaz]

right now its between westbrook and harden. Everyone else is a distant 3rd.

[menace2society]

1. Westbrook
2. Harden
3. Lebron

[miman15]

He is sitting the games they already have the highest chance of losing from a scheduling standpoint and the W/L record "without him" is therefore massively skewed. Is he crucial for them? Clearly. But not nearly so much as these guys posting W/L with no context would have you think.

They are 4-18 without him. Thats the record that is the most eye popping. The Cavs most probably wouldnt not lose to the likes of pistons and pacers with Lebron even on a back to back. "Schedule loss" is just a lame excuse.Come on now. There is a huge differnce in their play with and without lebron in the lineup. The cavs also won their latest 2nd night of back to back game with Lebron in the lineup.

While i agree Harden is the clear cut favorite for the MVP, no doubt. We know you always try to discredit Lebron, even in the slightest argument.

Lol no dude, schedule losses are VERY real (you need your whole team to fight against them, and even then it's tough), and taking out your best player in those situations (sometimes all three of them) is a MASSIVE disadvantage for the Cavs. No team outside of possibly this years Warriors can remove their best player and be favorites on the 2nd half of road b2b's (lmao - imagine Harden or Westbrook doing this to their teams? They're getting crushed). While (again) acknowledging his clear/huge positive impact that he brings to the team, I'm not going to reward him for resting and act like that W/L record is not tainted more-so by said schedule-losses (literally the only games he's sat this year by the way). It also gives himself an advantage in the following game health wise as opposed to a guy who is going out there and gutting it out every night. In the years where he rightfully earned his MVP's, especially on the Cavs, he didn't do that. He's older now and going deep in the playoffs and feels that he needs to do this - I understand - but it's a negative on his MVP campaign resume this season, pure and simple. Not the positive some are trying to spin it as.

So again, carrying less of a load/playing less games, and lesser production? I don't see him as the MVP over what we're getting from Westbrook and Harden, not at all.

I get it and i agree with you on this one. Resting wont help him on his mvp cause. Im just pointing out that Lebron is the most indispensible player on the league, 4-18 without him is not an accident. He makes this team elite. Theyre one of the worst without him (record wise). I dont have him at no. 1 in the mvp right now. But Im fully aware that hes the best player still in the nba, and the biggest game changer.

[enko]

But majority of Lebron's skipping game is from a back to back game. With or without Lebron, winning back to back games is not easy(specially against decent teams).

I have Westbrook as clear number 1 with Harden as number 2.

[miman15]

But majority of Lebron's skipping game is from a back to back game. With or without Lebron, winning back to back games is not easy(specially against decent teams).

I have Westbrook as clear number 1 with Harden as number 2.

But i dont think cavs would most probably lose to the likes of pistons with Lebron even on a back to back. The cavs might think they can getaway with a win playing without Lebron against the Pistons. The disparity of playing without Lebron is just massive. Again, im not saying hes the mvp right now. Im just saying hes the most indispensible.

[Triples333]

2 more huge games from Westbrook/Harden and two more wins. 29/17/11 + 7 TO's on 11-22 (0-1. 7-10 FT) for Westbrook in the 12 pt win for OKC @ Miami. 34/5/11 + 6 TO's on 9-16 (4-7. 12-12 FT) in 3 quarters of a ~20+ pt blowout @Dallas for Harden.

Got to see a good portion of both games, these dudes are just unstoppable right now. 51 and 60 win paces, respectively.

[nbafan38]

I know they've had an easy schedule but if the Thunder somehow ended up top 4 in the west Westbrook would definitely win MVP with the triple double thing and the whole storyline.

[Rastas]

It will all come down to team wins in the end , if their numbers stay similar to now at seasons end - for a player like Lebron to win it the Cavs will need around 5 more wins than the Rockets and at least 9 more wins than OKC .
So its up to Westbrook and Harden to keep getting those wins to keep the king at bay.

[Triples333]

I know they've had an easy schedule but if the Thunder somehow ended up top 4 in the west Westbrook would definitely win MVP with the triple double thing and the whole storyline.

Look at this slate coming up for OKC until Jan 31st (this is where I think Harden separates himself from him):

Dec 29: @ Mem
Dec 31: LAC
Jan 2: @MIL
Jan 4: @CHA
Jan 5: @HOU (road b2b)
Jan 7: DEN
Jan 9: @CHI
Jan 11: MEM
Jan 13: @MIN
Jan 15: @SAC
Jan 16: @LAC (road b2b)
Jan 18: @OAK
Jan 23: @UTH
Jan 25: @NOL
Jan 26: DAL (b2b)
Jan 29: @CLE
Jan 31: @SAS

17 games. 13 on the road. All the top teams of the west + Cleveland (all on the road). If they're in HCA position on Feb 1st or if the Rox have slipped to a similar record, he's very likely my MVP.

[miman15]

If the stats they produce are quite the same till the end of the season, It would all depend on the team record. If the okc somehow in the top 4 and close to the record of houston, then it qould most probably be westbrook. If houston is close to rhe cavs record wise its harden. If cavs are close to the record of the warriors, then its Lebron.

[Young_Star11]

If the stats they produce are quite the same till the end of the season, It would all depend on the team record. If the okc somehow in the top 4 and close to the record of houston, then it qould most probably be westbrook. If houston is close to rhe cavs record wise its harden. If cavs are close to the record of the warriors, then its Lebron.

Harden should have the inside running here. Houston is on pace for close to 60 wins and a top-4 seed. Without injuries, they should get there.

OKC are the 7th best team in the West IMO if everyone is healthy.

[K_chile22]

James Harden is the first player in NBA history with a 30/10/5 game in under 30 minutes

[Young_Star11]

I know they've had an easy schedule but if the Thunder somehow ended up top 4 in the west Westbrook would definitely win MVP with the triple double thing and the whole storyline.

Look at this slate coming up for OKC until Jan 31st (this is where I think Harden separates himself from him):

Dec 29: @ Mem
Dec 31: LAC
Jan 2: @MIL
Jan 4: @CHA
Jan 5: @HOU (road b2b)
Jan 7: DEN
Jan 9: @CHI
Jan 11: MEM
Jan 13: @MIN
Jan 15: @SAC
Jan 16: @LAC (road b2b)
Jan 18: @OAK
Jan 23: @UTH
Jan 25: @NOL
Jan 26: DAL (b2b)
Jan 29: @CLE
Jan 31: @SAS

17 games. 13 on the road. All the top teams of the west + Cleveland (all on the road). If they're in HCA position on Feb 1st or if the Rox have slipped to a similar record, he's very likely my MVP.

Could see OKC going at least 10-7 in that stretch. They're a lot better than people give them credit for. Westbrook doing his thing, Adams a 'silent' second-best player / partner-in-crime.

Not convinced about them being a top-4 seed, they would obviously need one of the top-4 seeds falling down and then outpacing teams like Utah and Memphis who I rank higher than them if ever healthy.