The best rim protectors in the league

LivingLegend · Post #41 » by **LivingLegend** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:34 pm

EireannX wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Promezclan wrote:He's actually below average in opp FG% (there are more dots below him than above), and massively below average at blocks - he actually looks a bit better on that chart precisely BECAUSE his blocks are so low that he's on the good side of the trend line, even though all that means is that his FG defense isn't as bad as his awful blocks would predict, not that it's above average. Assuming that blocks have some independent value (and I think they do), he's definitely in the bottom 25%, although not the worst - by these metrics, he's pretty clearly better than Ryan Anderson and Blake Griffin, and he has solid arguments over Jokic, Gortat and M. Morris.

Does anybody know how to read graphs? The dotted line is the average and if you are below the line, that means he is holding people to a lower than average FG%. Which means he is actually above average in that department.

No, the dotted line isn't the average. If it were then why would the average be changing? It's a trend line which best maps both axes.

Mind you the average isn't 'more dots above than below', that would be more of a median calculation.

And even if you treat the line as some kind of metric for performance, all it might tell you is that Kevin Love's FG% is better than the trend for someone who so rarely blocks shots. It doesn't give any insight into how good his defence is against the average.

hmm that makes sense I guess, but then why even include the line?

E-Balla · Post #42 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:37 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Not going to lie haven't really watched that many Nets games. Has Brook Lopez really taken the next step and become a legit rim protector? If so wow, a playoff team needs to make a trade for him quick. He would be a beast in the playoffs.

Also on a side note, want to point out again that Okafor has already become an above average rim protector something many thought he could never become. Average FG% and above average shot blocking.

Took the next step? Brook has always protected the rim this isn't new.

Also wouldn't it make more sense to chart DFG% and DFGA%? Man this graph is just so bad in so many ways...

EireannX · Post #43 » by **EireannX** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:38 pm

Smirkin Dirk wrote:Just had a quick look. I don't understand graphs.

Can someone tell me if Dwight Powell being all by himself at the top there is good or bad for Dallas?

Please. Be gentle.

The 57% area where a few players are clustered is basically turnstyle defence.

Where Powell is hanging out is where you offer the other player a 'boost' to help them reach the rim.

EireannX · Post #44 » by **EireannX** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:45 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
hmm that makes sense I guess, but then why even include the line?

Because the graph is designed to assess the impact of blocks on DFG%, not to quantify players defensive ability.

And in that usage the trend line makes sense.

(As was pointed out, even with the trend line the correlation is weak, But the graph is still a tool in that analysis)

E-Balla · Post #45 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:48 pm

Another issue I have with those graphs after reading the reddit OP is that the data is wildly inaccurate (to use 2 Knicks that stood out to me in the graph for example Kyle O'Quinn is at -10 and so is Willy and that should place them exactly where Lamarcus is at on the Y axis but they arent there) and the OP doesn't seem to know what he was doing. He actually charted blocks assuming the person with the lowest DFG% and most blocks was the best but that's far from the truth. With DFG% blocks is virtually useless. This is just sloppily done here.

eskimo · Post #46 » by **eskimo** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:51 pm

If Embiid is this good after a 2.5 year layoff and just minimal basketball game experience I wonder how much better he might yet become. His foul rate has already markedly dropped off compared to when he first hit the court in the preseason.

Now if someone could just convince Brett Brown to put Noel and Embiid on the court together and at least become relevant as a team on one end of the court.

LibertyPrime · Post #47 » by **LibertyPrime** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:52 pm

Interesting, Sabonis doing a good job of rim defense without shot-blocking.

franktony · Post #48 » by **franktony** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:04 pm

I knew that Aldridge was a very good rim protector. From the eye-test you can tell that he really bothers people with his size. I wonder if he can actually make the switch from PF to C as he gets older.

shawn_hemp · Post #49 » by **shawn_hemp** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:42 pm

I would say Embiid, Gobert, and Whiteside are in the top tier

Followed by players like Myles Turner, Anthony Davis, Porzingis

Just going by straight blocks can be misleading though, since some of these guys get blocks outside of the paint area.

Like I would say Anthony Davis is a great shot blocker, just as good as Embiid, but I view "rim protecting" as a player who you know is there, and changes your entire game plan towards getting to the basket.

Idk, I guess AD would be in the top tier but it doesn't seem like he's ever going to bulk up to the same level as guys like Embiid or Whiteside

Post #50 » by **FNQ** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:46 pm

LivingLegend wrote:Well, I hope that can put to rest that Kevin Love is a terrible defender argument.

Also, daaaaang Joel Embiid lol

Right on par with Zaza Pachulia

The problem with the %s in relation to this topic is that it doesnt, and cannot, take into account shots not taken because of an interior presence. Teams that go perimeter to avoid Gobert, teams that will take a worse shot against Kevin Love because what's he gonna do, block it? etc and so forth.

It's a cool metric to see what the stats say though, but should absolutely be taken with context and the understanding that it can only relate to results, and not the factors that lead up to said results

Post #51 » by **FNQ** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:52 pm

E-Balla wrote:
WCCC wrote:Why does blocks/36 matter? You can protect the rim without blocking shots

Yeah this. By including that guys like LaMarcus end up looking bad even though they defend the rim very well.

If we were to accept this graph as the end-all, be-all of rim protection (pro tip: dont do that) then the only axis that really matters is the Y axis, which shows FG% around the hoop. Blocks matter a little bit - you would have to know the average defensive rebound rate and cross reference the defensive rebound rate of blocked shots to be accurate - but I'm willing to bet that the overall defensive rebound rate of a missed shot is > the defensive reb rate of a blocked shot.

So forget the left to right stuff, the top to bottom stuff would matter more. LaMarcus comes out looking great per this graph. But I say that with the note from my prior post above, on how this only measures results, which is a big part of rim protection but can't possibly be 100% accurate.

Sark · Post #52 » by **Sark** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:58 pm

Gary Cokeman wrote:Porzingis is just so awesome.

Unfortunately for him, he has to guard the perimeter way too often because Melo does not like to go out there, and would prefer to stay near the paint.

Mik317 · Post #53 » by **Mik317** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:40 pm

Gobert is some hax ****. makes guards just quit at life and ****.

someone test that man for block steroids or something.

hype_2004 · Post #54 » by **hype_2004** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:45 pm

Lucas Nogueira is Marcus Camby 2.0

E-Balla · Post #55 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:54 pm

Sark wrote:
Gary Cokeman wrote:Porzingis is just so awesome.

Unfortunately for him, he has to guard the perimeter way too often because Melo does not like to go out there, and would prefer to stay near the paint.

I hope you're not serious...

MrPerfect1 · Post #56 » by **MrPerfect1** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:32 pm

Amazing how Giannis is basically really good at EVERYTHING (other than 3 point shooting)

HawaiianJazzFan · Post #57 » by **HawaiianJazzFan** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:33 pm

Dang it I blame Gobert not being number 1 on Jonas Valanciunas. He might be the only player that has gone against Gobert (like actually at him) and not gotten embarrassingly blocked at least once during the game. He has to have the highest FG% against Gobert this season.

Catchall · Post #58 » by **Catchall** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:35 pm

Mik317 wrote:Gobert is some hax ****. makes guards just quit at life and ****.

someone test that man for block steroids or something.

It's true that only the brave even try to challenge Gobert. Almost no one goes over him. They have to go around him or get to the rim sooner than he can come over. The best way to score on Gobert is a high floater.

nbafan341 · Post #59 » by **nbafan341** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:17 am

Sabonis is a good example that will be overlooked because fans think blocks mean defence which is misleading.

Cappy_Smurf · Post #60 » by **Cappy_Smurf** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:41 am

Catchall wrote:
Mik317 wrote:Gobert is some hax ****. makes guards just quit at life and ****.

someone test that man for block steroids or something.

It's true that only the brave even try to challenge Gobert. Almost no one goes over him. They have to go around him or get to the rim sooner than he can come over. The best way to score on Gobert is a high floater.

Yeah, it doesn't happen often, but there's been a few guys who have figured out getting to the rim on Rudy. Lillard and Lowry have both had success at getting their shots at the rim over him this year. Mostly, players end up missing when they try shooting to avoid the block.