Is their a reason to be concerned? The venting thread.

myersia · Post #1 » by **myersia** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:27 pm

So we have lost 13 out of the last 15 I believe. We are a young team. We were bound to struggle with a new offense and new coach. This is not a "panic trade everyone" thread. My question simply is should we be concerned and should Mitch start pondering a trade of some sort? Feel free to vent.

Post #2 » by **Danny Darko** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:31 pm

it's pretty odd that we can get all these leads and then turn to a bunch of iso heaver, brick layers, with no heart and no blue collar ethic every game, but that being said in years past we didn't have the skill to dominate at all and when you watched it was clear that there was no system and no one trying to be a team.

You can't ignore the trend, but I think it's a good core and a good system that just needs a few dirty working rebounding scrappy defenders.

lake_show · Post #3 » by **lake_show** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:52 pm

*There. Personally I don't feel like there's ever a reason to be "concerned" about basketball, but I get what you're saying. I think Mitch should always be pondering trades. That's his job. I never expected this entire team to be together forever. At some point it's gonna take a free agent, or a trade to get us where we want to be. I agree with Danny Darko though. The core is good, and the system is good. There's talent there. We've shown we can win ball games. It's not like other years where there's a complete lack of talent. These guys need to find their heart though. Too many showboats on the team. Everyone wants to be "the guy". Who cares if you're "the guy" if your team sucks ass though? That's what these guys need to learn.

miggs · Post #4 » by **miggs** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:56 pm

Great venting thread, i like this.

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Post #5 » by **Slava** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:23 pm

In Luke we trust:

Read on Twitter

BEazy · Post #6 » by **BEazy** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:03 pm

I'm not buying this want to be good now or later stuff. I want to see some new players on the roster. You just can't instill passion with these kids unless you have passionate personalities around you. Like a Draymond Green, Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, etc. Until that happens, these kids are going to act like they listened for a game or two and then revert back into their iso hero ball bull.

magicbesteva · Post #7 » by **magicbesteva** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:29 pm

My concern is the team doesn't truthfully understand what they are doing wrong or know how to fix things. The players always give the same answer "We went away from what we do as a team", "The ball stopped moving", "We have to get stops". but there's more to just saying we need to share the ball and get stops. It looks like its going to take this team the whole season to finally understand how to play in certain situations and know how teams like to play.

Landsberger · Post #8 » by **Landsberger** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:31 pm

That game last night was a low point. Question is... will it be THE low point or are we on a downward stairway?

Before knee jerking here I'd like to see the entire team healthy for a 10 game stretch to see if it's a chemistry issue in the units because of missing pieces or if this is actually who we are and the first 15 games were a mirage.

The one constant of this season is the utter lack of defense. There seems to be one of two things going on. Either they are not listening to the coaching staff or the staff isn't prioritizing defense. Either way it's a disaster other than a few strings of possessions a week right now. I'm not sure it's due to the players having a lack of ability. A lack of desire I can see in a few of them and a lack of a cohesive strategy in how to use them is also evident.

As for venting frustration goes. I was expecting about 28 wins with a high surprise of 30 or so. Right now they are tracking below that but injuries have played a part in the issues. How big? Not sure so while I'm mildly disappointed in the recent play if it weren't for the very surprising initial play of this team I'm not sure I'd be disappointed much.

The disappointing aspect of the current state of the Lakers is the front office. I know Jimmy said what he said to address the huge swing and miss that was the Howard/Nash fiasco. I also know that there are smart enough heads in the FO to not reinforce the "second round" playoff blather but it's out there nonetheless. As we get closer to the halfway point it will be in their face every day and how they address it will have a huge impact on the psyche of our very young core. Pressure of being 19-21 in a league of grown men is pressure enough.... to add the irresponsible pressure of reaching not only the playoffs but some point beyond that is what's frustrating. It could also force their hand in trades that may be best for the now at the expense of the future.

DEEP3CL · Post #9 » by **DEEP3CL** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:10 pm

Great thread myersia....we needed this. Secondly I love everyone's post, it shows that we're seeing and feeling the same things about this team. As ScHoolBoy B said and hit perfectly on the head, you gotta have players like KG,Kobe, CP3 and Draymond like personalities on the team. Yet they're different players but the common trait is they absolutely hate to lose....they hate it.

And like ScHoolBoy said, you can't teach that to any kid...you either born with it or not. I think we have too many laid back guys, you got to have killers. I remember during LeBron's first stint in Cleveland when he said he "didn't have it in him to kill like Kobe"...from that moment on I remember posting on the Cavs board that he'll never win until he gets that thirst to kill. He had to leave to learn it from Wade but now he has it and it's the reason LeBron is the most dangerous player in the game with Westbrook being right behind him in terms of going kill mode.

It's frustrating to all of us because we know what championship level ball looks like, even as fans we understand how you have to play to get to that level. But we're going nuts because game after game we see guys make the same dumbass mistakes over and over and over to the point it's nerve wrecking.

Here's a quick example of the dumbness, Lou drives base line get's caught but has Deng as an outlet there and instead of making the quick snap pass from the chest he bounces it off the floor, the defender has time to read it and steal it. Crap like that happens game after game. I don't get why these guys make it so damn hard.

And here's a point about the playoffs that some of the posters who duck in only to root for a tank season again doesn't get....it was very believable to see them fight for the 8th seed. There was a flaw with every team that the media picked ahead of the Lakers. It wasn't unreal or dumb to think they couldn't go for it. Even still the Lakers as bad as they've been the team is still only 4 games out of the 8th seed, that can be made up with just one good week of winning games.

But fact is at the rate the team is playing we're going to continue this plummet and find themselves out of for sure before the All Star break.

Closing out I can't even watch the post game interviews, I'm tired of hearing the same things and see them come out 2 days later and commit the same BS over and over. And let's keep it real here and I didn't think we would get to this point but fellas we have a major problem festering....

You guys ever wonder why the ball stops going to certain people some games ? Gonna put it out there now, it's because of the 3 players I think have the biggest ego's.....Jordan, Julius and DeAngelo. These guys while not verbally hinting at it but showing it in their play, these guys are jocking for alpha dog of team status.

I've seen too many sequences...like Nick was feeling it early, what they do ? Go completely away from him until he fired his first shot in the 2nd half in the 4th quarter !!

Like lake_show said, he never expected this team to be together forever. I said the same thing earlier in the year. I said this team reminded me of the 95-96 Lakers, that team had talent but we moved a lot of those guys. Some to get Shaq and others to build the 3Peat team we had. I call it collateral damage, not all these guys will be here to finish their career as a Laker. To get where we want to get... Mitch ( if he still has the job by that time ) will have to move guys to get better guys.

Summing it up.....everybody here is frustrated and we're just 36 games in, no way all of us can take the next 36 at the same rate.

No way in hell can we do it.....no way.

miggs · Post #10 » by **miggs** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:04 pm

Real talk, im here for my lakers even if the season goes all downhill from here on out. I'm a dreamer though lol

Kobe was quite raw and got the benefit of playing with Shaq other vets to help accelerate his growth. His work ethic was always the constant.

Now 20 yrs later, i get to watch not 1, not 2, not 3 but 7 young players I really enjoy watching develop. For being so young, I have been satisfied with the progress they've made under tough circumstances. I look forward to seeing strides next year however, as the young core settles in as does Luke himself.

96-97 Shaq & Kobe arrive
97-98 Kobe All Star, 2nd Rd exit
98-99 Another 2nd rd exit
99-00 Title with Phil... history

To me, I see the same magic I saw in the spring of 1998, where something special was going to start cooking, some will go some will stay but a Dlo-Randle-TinyDawg trio is potent and add another top 3 pick and that's deadly considering the rest of young players worth continued investment.

2011 to 2013 The Kobe era declines...

2014-15 Randle, Clarkson & Black
2015-16 Russell & Nance
2016-17 Ingram & Zubac

That's a pretty good haul considering each of those guys can fit nice niches. By the 2019-20 season we'll be seeing major strides in the young core and possibly have added one more big piece.

To build a title contender, we need true stars, go to players and those chances will come starting in the 2018 off season all through the 2020 one. If we can become a playoff team in the 6th or 7th seed by the 2018 offseason, I think the core will be one of the top places to go if Paul George leaves Indy and 76+ mil.

Star 1 (2018)
Star 2 (2020)
Ingram
2017 Top 3 Pick
Russell
Randle
Clarkson (or young big)
Nance
Black
Zubac
2017 Mid 1st Rd (Lou)
Robinson
Mozgov
Deng

That team could make noise enough next season to lure a big name or two between 2018 and 2020, just as the young building blocks are coming into their early prime years and with 2 seasons under Luke by then, the offense and hopefully defense will be looking smoother.

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Post #11 » by **TyCobb** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:02 am

This is much needed, lol thank you. :lol:

First, Luke Walton is the perfect head coach for the Lakers for now and the future so I don't want him gone, but...he is driving me nuts with:

- his rotations
- minutes given to certain players
- 'feel for who is hot' instead of sticking with a core and developing them through consistent roles
- his body language and facial expressions on the sidelines during games.. be composed you're the leader of these young men

Obviously he lacks the experience so he's gonna grow along with these players, but that can be a dragged out process if you have both sides with a whole lot of learning to do. I can see a Young Coach - Veteran Group or Veteran Coach - Young Group have success quickly but Young Coach - Young Group... that's gonna take some time.

As a fan, I'm fine with waiting till both sides get it right together, but that's gonna take years. Until the FO commits to these guys with extensions, I feel like the situation will be dynamic and if a trade presents itself they'll split it up. So you want to win right away, now that you have enough assets that you can package some together and not gut your team, but then you want to watch these kids grow together to see if they become special.

To me, this team will be a sum is greater than its parts, because they have too many overlapping common factors among its players due to age, experience level, freedom for ball-handling and no standout dominance from anyone. In order for a team like that to win, they all have to buy into the team concept at the same damn time for extended periods of time.

Unfortunately, I don't think Russell will be able to put his ego aside--not in the current roster construction. Which leads me to my stance today... either trade Russell or trade Randle and Clarkson. I say Randle and Clarkson because those to me are his biggest 'alpha-dog' rivals on the team. Ingram will get along with everyone on the court.

ak7 · Post #12 » by **ak7** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:04 am

I think the early season successes set unreachable expectations for the team over the course of the entire season. This is still a very young and inexperienced team which also relies on players who are still trying to find their niche as NBA players to win them games. We lack a reliable scorer late in the possession, and on a broader spectrum, late in the game. The development of Ingram should change this. Patience.

miggs · Post #13 » by **miggs** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:41 am

TyCobb wrote:This is much needed, lol thank you.

First, Luke Walton is the perfect head coach for the Lakers for now and the future so I don't want him gone, but...he is driving me nuts with:

- his rotations
- minutes given to certain players
- 'feel for who is hot' instead of sticking with a core and developing them through consistent roles
- his body language and facial expressions on the sidelines during games.. be composed you're the leader of these young men

Obviously he lacks the experience so he's gonna grow along with these players, but that can be a dragged out process if you have both sides with a whole lot of learning to do. I can see a Young Coach - Veteran Group or Veteran Coach - Young Group have success quickly but Young Coach - Young Group... that's gonna take some time.

As a fan, I'm fine with waiting till both sides get it right together, but that's gonna take years. Until the FO commits to these guys with extensions, I feel like the situation will be dynamic and if a trade presents itself they'll split it up. So you want to win right away, now that you have enough assets that you can package some together and not gut your team, but then you want to watch these kids grow together to see if they become special.

To me, this team will be a sum is greater than its parts, because they have too many overlapping common factors among its players due to age, experience level, freedom for ball-handling and no standout dominance from anyone. In order for a team like that to win, they all have to buy into the team concept at the same damn time for extended periods of time.

Unfortunately, I don't think Russell will be able to put his ego aside--not in the current roster construction. Which leads me to my stance today... either trade Russell or trade Randle and Clarkson. I say Randle and Clarkson because those to me are his biggest 'alpha-dog' rivals on the team. Ingram will get along with everyone on the court.

Interesting on the Russell and Randle/Clarkson dynamic. Really think we'd benefit from Fultz or Ball as both force you to play a very unselfish brand of basketball from the get go. Keep Ingram, Russell, Randle, Nance and Zubac. The rest is up for sale, some like Black and Young give us more than their trade return would be.

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DEEP3CL · Post #14 » by **DEEP3CL** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:51 am

TyCobb wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think Russell will be able to put his ego aside--not in the current roster construction. Which leads me to my stance today... either trade Russell or trade Randle and Clarkson. I say Randle and Clarkson because those to me are his biggest 'alpha-dog' rivals on the team. Ingram will get along with everyone on the court.

Glad you see it too TC. This is the root of our problem in terms of the chemistry dynamic of the team.

You got 3 guys, all fighting for that alpha dog status. It ain't hard to see what's wrong here, you got Jordan who was a second round pick....probably felt like he should've been a 1st rounder. He got paid quicker than the other 2 will because of the dumbass "Gilbert Arenas" rule which has now been modified to prevent these types of paydays so quick. Anyway he now feels empowered by his money and plays way too selfish now.

Then you have Julius, who was a 1st rounder but picked 7th...he too felt he should've went higher. He's locked in to the usual rookie deal and the team picked up his option so he has to wait another year just to be restricted. He's in the middle of the sandwich because his deal isn't bigger than Russell's or Ingram's. So Julius in a way plays selfish at times.

Then we get to Russell, who was hyped by the team themselves as being "Magic" like and the media took it even further by saying he had the personality to be the leader. You think this stuff didn't get back to JC and Julius's camp's ? And since the ball is in his hands and was empowered by Luke from day 1 of camp to lead the team....well he ran with it.

And stuck behind it all is Tiny Dog, who really has the personality to be the leader but he's too damn young. Brandon may be struggling but if you watch how he plays it's all in control. His game is best suited to lead Walton's offense, because once he becomes a scorer that demands the double, all that needs to be done is surrounding him with shot protection.

That said, I'd move all 3....because being real about it all 3 will never supplant their ego's. Flip'em I don't get sentimental about players anymore. I'm sentimental for my team.

I loved Kobe but I'm not gonna lie I was glad his time was up, hero ball is dead...it's about team ball. I thought we was good until these 3 fool found it in the graveyard and are now trying to resuscitate it.

tugs · Post #15 » by **tugs** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:05 am

Was about to let all this steam come out of me then I read all your posts. I'm so chill now.

As much as they say they're all buddies off the court, I do agree that DLo, Randle, and JC are silently competing against each other. Out of all the 3, only JC has been vocal about doing whatever the team needs him to do. To add to Deep's assessment, I also see his selfishness as being trying too damn hard to fulfill his responsibility. A demotion is still a demotion whatever way you look at it. He was supposed to be the guy taking over the Kobe burden, then Russell came along. He tries to be a mentor to DLo but his game just doesn't translate to that.

As for my rant. **** yeah we should be concerned. We saw how good these group of guys are during the first few games and how they can dismantle even the elite teams. It's not about skills and techniques, but their problems are all mental and they should really address that. Freestyle, fun basketball worked for GS because they already have the fundamentals, drive, and discipline to make it work. It's like trying to drive but the only thing you know about cars is it only makes you look cool.

Would still like to see them kept together for a whole season though.

DOOOEEEEEEEE

miggs · Post #16 » by **miggs** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:41 am

Ingram is my #1 on the team, love his demeanor man.

A core of Fultz-Ingram-Nance may be able to go far due to the unselfish nature of those players, surround them with two studs and you got some magic. Interesting idea of deeps to just package all 3 of Russell, Clarkson and Randle, makes me wonder on the return. Dallas may bite on one of those for an unprotected 2017 1st but that's very risky

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Michael Lucky · Post #17 » by **Michael Lucky** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:44 am

miggs wrote:Ingram is my #1 on the team, love his demeanor man.

A core of Fultz-Ingram-Nance may be able to go far due to the unselfish nature of those players, surround them with two studs and you got some magic. Interesting idea of deeps to just package all 3 of Russell, Clarkson and Randle, makes me wonder on the return. Dallas may bite on one of those for an unprotected 2017 1st but that's very risky

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Fultz is really a pipe dream though. He's the clear number 1 and probably the best guard prospect I have seen over the last ten years. Very Athletic, Great vision, and can really shoot off the dribble. Hard to ask for more.

miggs · Post #18 » by **miggs** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:49 am

Fultz, Ball or bust

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LakersLegacy · Post #19 » by **LakersLegacy** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:29 am

Maybe we should try to keep our pick? I know that we don't tank. But If we keep it then we don't owe a first rounder to the Magic.

Ingram is the best overall player. I like Randle's Green impression. We need to move on from Young who has played great because he won't be part of the future and the young guys need PT. Young could win just enough games to miss out on a top 3 pick.

Vesper · Post #20 » by **Vesper** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:36 am

GUYS.

Keeping the pick is a huge deal. Draft Fultz, Tatum/X or flip the pick for a star in a package deal. PRay that we get a legit Free agent.

TWo ways to literally improve the tank in terms of record is trading louwill/nick young. As I mentioned before, I would rather keep young and louwill over JC. However, if the Front office decides to keep JC, we have to do something about the logjam in the backcourt.