Vogel discussing Elf on Magic Drive Time

[Magic_Kingdom]

Vogel talking about Elf this afternoon on Magic Drive Time radio show described him as "sporadic energy player" on defense. Says some nights he doesn't bring energy and that's his biggest problem. But says he has good heart and wants to get better. But he needs to be challenged.

Interesting because this is what Skiles said about Elf. Vogel has taken it to a different level by removing him from the starting lineup for an extended period. Elf has potential, but I'd say it's not a good sign that 2 straight veteran coaches have publicly called out his "energy". He needs to improve his professionalism.

[SOUL]

On one hand, I can see what he's getting at because he knows Elfrid has the potential to be one of the best defensive guards in the league (which doesn't have the impact it used to have, but can still be disruptive), on the other hand, I can't take it too seriously when he's playing Jeff Green 25 minutes a game who is the bastard child of effort and energy.

Elfrid plays better when he's mad and challenged. Maybe that's just who he is and needs that button pushed. He's a pretty calm guy off the court so maybe he needs to be fired up like that. When his energy is lower, the entire team is sluggish (sans Gordon and Biyombo) -- while each player should be responsible for their own energy, maybe putting that on Elf is what he needs.

He's had some crazy games this month, so he should just keep pushing that button and putting the ball in his hands. It's been working.

I think Elfrid works as hard as anybody on the team. I don't think effort has ever been a question, just aggressiveness and energy. He's starting to learn how important his aggressiveness is, now he just needs that bouncy energy you see him have every few games where you know he can't really be denied from the paint.

[basketballRob]

Could you imagine how many assists EP would get if his teammates shot at least an average percentage?

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio

[darthcheech2000]

He certainly can check out, the skills challenge egg he laid a couple years back comes to mind, but it never bothered me much, until I hear a coach like Vogel calling it out.

In hindsight I think I should have been worried, because a true competitor would try their best no matter what.

[Bensational]

Elf just needs to learn to bring it every night. It takes some players time to learn how much effort they need to give every single game.

The playoffs would be a good test for Elf. You'd want to see that in that stretch he can be fired up every single night.

I don't think it's fair to question Vogel about his opinion just because he uses Green a lot though. Vogel isn't an idiot, and he's got a track record for good development, so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows what he's doing with his overuse of Green and what might appear as an underuse of Payton/Gordon. He did say in preseason that everyone needs to feel challenged for their jobs and I'd say he's certainly made a point that none of our young guys are getting time for free. Green/Augustin are just placeholders who can hold the reigns until our young guys don't need to feel like they need the threat of losing minutes to be the motivator for playing hard every single night.

[rcklsscognition]

Could you imagine how many assists EP would get if his teammates shot at least an average percentage?

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio

He would average 5.4 assists per game if the recipients of every pass he dished shot at league average (45.2% and 35.6%).

[SOUL]

Elf just needs to learn to bring it every night. It takes some players time to learn how much effort they need to give every single game.

The difference is people really want to say "he just needs to have a good game every night" which is entirely different and asking too much for a streaky offensive player like Elfrid (although he is becoming more consistent this year, especially the last month or two). People confuse bad games with effort all the time here when that's not the case. I expect a good floor game from him every night, with added nights where he's shooting light's out, and hoping he drives to the paint often, which he's been doing.

Green/Augustin are just placeholders who can hold the reigns until our young guys don't need to feel like they need the threat of losing minutes to be the motivator for playing hard every single night.

Eh, we've heard this throughout the years with Oladipo, Tobias, AG, Payton, Vuc, Mario, etc. All of them have been benched in favor of lesser talented players the last 3 years. At some point coaches just ride players because they're comfortable with them as veterans and there isn't some grand idea they're scheming up. Great coaches are human and make tons of mistakes daily. Spurs fans are hugely critical of Popovich's rotations at times despite being the best coach in any league. Luckily, all of those players were moved by Hennigan (Jason Smith, Willie Green, Ben Gordon, etc) so there wouldn't be multiple years of playing veterans that don't deserve that much playing time.

Luckily, Vogel seems like the type that works with young players who come into the league as clay and need to be taught certain things. Skiles wanted a team full of finished products that could police themselves. This is where he butted heads with Tobias, Hennigan, Elfrid, etc.

[OrlChamps2030]

Lack of energy? Inconsistent effort? Laid back demeanor??

Watch on YouTube

[Rockzin4]

His defense is worrisome to me. He really needs to get better at sticking with his man.

[JF5]

On one hand, I can see what he's getting at because he knows Elfrid has the potential to be one of the best defensive guards in the league (which doesn't have the impact it used to have, but can still be disruptive), on the other hand, I can't take it too seriously when he's playing Jeff Green 25 minutes a game who is the bastard child of effort and energy.

Elfrid plays better when he's mad and challenged. Maybe that's just who he is and needs that button pushed. He's a pretty calm guy off the court so maybe he needs to be fired up like that. When his energy is lower, the entire team is sluggish (sans Gordon and Biyombo) -- while each player should be responsible for their own energy, maybe putting that on Elf is what he needs.

He's had some crazy games this month, so he should just keep pushing that button and putting the ball in his hands. It's been working.

I think Elfrid works as hard as anybody on the team. I don't think effort has ever been a question, just aggressiveness and energy. He's starting to learn how important his aggressiveness is, now he just needs that bouncy energy you see him have every few games where you know he can't really be denied from the paint.

We've discussed this to death last year when AG/Payton/Hezonja weren't playing that much under Skiles. You don't want to throw your youth into the fire and they potentially develop bad habits and less discipline when it comes to the basics.

That's why playing Gordon 25 Minutes a game at a position he's never played consistently before is a smart idea. You don't force him, you don't try to make him do too much, and you make him play in the flow of the offense. Right now the way he's being used has been brilliant. He's starting to get more comfortable and for the last month he's looked a lot better than he did at the beginning of the season. He usually makes the correct play and doesn't really hurt the team offensively (compared to what he did at the beginning of the season). He'll get his chance as Vogel is just trying to challenge him more under restricted minutes.

[tiderulz]

On one hand, I can see what he's getting at because he knows Elfrid has the potential to be one of the best defensive guards in the league (which doesn't have the impact it used to have, but can still be disruptive), on the other hand, I can't take it too seriously when he's playing Jeff Green 25 minutes a game who is the bastard child of effort and energy.

Elfrid plays better when he's mad and challenged. Maybe that's just who he is and needs that button pushed. He's a pretty calm guy off the court so maybe he needs to be fired up like that. When his energy is lower, the entire team is sluggish (sans Gordon and Biyombo) -- while each player should be responsible for their own energy, maybe putting that on Elf is what he needs.

He's had some crazy games this month, so he should just keep pushing that button and putting the ball in his hands. It's been working.

I think Elfrid works as hard as anybody on the team. I don't think effort has ever been a question, just aggressiveness and energy. He's starting to learn how important his aggressiveness is, now he just needs that bouncy energy you see him have every few games where you know he can't really be denied from the paint.

his effort absolutely has been a question. there have been many nights over the past 2 years where he was completely disengaged and showed little effort until something finally made him mad or lit his fire

[NBlue]

Since 12/5 (the last 15 games) the Magic have gone 7-8. Over, that time in our 8 losses EP's point totals have been as follows:

2, 4, 10, 13, 9, 7, 8, 10

In our 7 wins EP's point totals have been as follows:

13, 16, 25, 22, 10, 26, 25

That's right in only one loss did EP score more than 10 and in only one win did EP score less than 11.

In looking through the stats of our players in wins versus losses of late its hard to find any stat that jumps out more than EP's scoring in wins versus losses and, I might add, it seems to be representative of what happens on the court when he brings it. We need more of that. We win when it happens. And whatever Vogel can do to light a fire under his ass I fully support.

[SOUL]

his effort absolutely has been a question. there have been many nights over the past 2 years where he was completely disengaged and showed little effort until something finally made him mad or lit his fire

And there have been nights where the entire team is sluggish and being selfish while Elfrid is picking up the slack. The fact that he doesn't have a hyper-aggressive off court demeanor makes him a target for that sort of criticism based on his personality. When I think of non-effort, I think of players like Jeff Green or Mario lately. Not anybody else on this team.

There are games (mostly last year) where he isn't getting into the lane as much and passing on the perimeter and that's not his game, and I would attribute that to lack of aggression. There are games where he's not pressuring the point guard down the court for 90 feet as much as he should where it seems like he's putting that energy into the offensive end more. There are times over the last few years where him and the team have looked dispirited after a bad stretch.

But I can't recall scenarios where he's given up on a play (at least any more than any other NBA player) or didn't try. Him and Oladipo were the kings of messing up on a play and doing something redeeming on the other end to make up for it. In fact, I think for the most part our team has given decent individual effort but with a huge lack of a team concept on the defensive end. It's still coming together.

It's a tricky situation to insinuate that a person doesn't put forth effort or doesn't care. I don't think those players would last long in the NBA.

[tiderulz]

his effort absolutely has been a question. there have been many nights over the past 2 years where he was completely disengaged and showed little effort until something finally made him mad or lit his fire

And there have been nights where the entire team is sluggish and being selfish while Elfrid is picking up the slack. The fact that he doesn't have a hyper-aggressive off court demeanor makes him a target for that sort of criticism based on his personality. When I think of non-effort, I think of players like Jeff Green or Mario lately. Not anybody else on this team.

There are games (mostly last year) where he isn't getting into the lane as much and passing on the perimeter and that's not his game, and I would attribute that to lack of aggression. There are games where he's not pressuring the point guard down the court for 90 feet as much as he should where it seems like he's putting that energy into the offensive end more. There are times over the last few years where him and the team have looked dispirited after a bad stretch.

But I can't recall scenarios where he's given up on a play (at least any more than any other NBA player) or didn't try. Him and Oladipo were the kings of messing up on a play and doing something redeeming on the other end to make up for it. In fact, I think for the most part our team has given decent individual effort but with a huge lack of a team concept on the defensive end. It's still coming together.

It's a tricky situation to insinuate that a person doesn't put forth effort or doesn't care. I don't think those players would last long in the NBA.

Jeff Green and Mario dont give effort 100%...so what. We arent talking about them, we are talking about Elf's issues. And one of his problems is that he doesnt bring full effort every game. and with his shooting woes, he needs to bring it all the time

[SOUL]

Jeff Green and Mario dont give effort 100%...so what. We arent talking about them, we are talking about Elf's issues. And one of his problems is that he doesnt bring full effort every game. and with his shooting woes, he needs to bring it all the time

Then we'll agree to disagree.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

When you are a paid MILLIONS of dollars to play the game of basketball esp in the NBA and your effort and energy level is questioned.... well there is something deeply wrong with that player/person.

[SOUL]

When you are a paid MILLIONS of dollars to play the game of basketball esp in the NBA and your effort and energy level is questioned.... well there is something deeply wrong with that player/person.

Nobody is questioning his effort but RealGM posters that have no basis for it.

[OrlandoDream]

Since 12/5 (the last 15 games) the Magic have gone 7-8. Over, that time in our 8 losses EP's point totals have been as follows:

2, 4, 10, 13, 9, 7, 8, 10

In our 7 wins EP's point totals have been as follows:

13, 16, 25, 22, 10, 26, 25

That's right in only one loss did EP score more than 10 and in only one win did EP score less than 11.

In looking through the stats of our players in wins versus losses of late its hard to find any stat that jumps out more than EP's scoring in wins versus losses and, I might add, it seems to be representative of what happens on the court when he brings it. We need more of that. We win when it happens. And whatever Vogel can do to light a fire under his ass I fully support.

No Other player has a higher impact on the game then EP. I feel like I say this every day, but when he is aggressive and looks to score, this team looks different. We all know he has the skills to play like this every night and that's why it's frustrating. It's true that he plays best when he is pissed and/or challenged. Vogel and Forcier need to do whatever they can to light a fire in him and keep it. I thought benching him would do that but that wasn't enough I guess.

It's true that he is a low key guy and at 22, not many young players can play with that professionalism every night. This will come for EP in time. However I feel like we may not wait that long. This seven game west coast trip will decide the futures for a couple of young guys. If EP doesn't show a consistent effort, then I fear we may look to upgrade at the PG. I would hate it if we do another knee jerk trade no deal for Dragic. Strapped in.

[SOUL]

Also, to expound on the interview, Dante mentioned how Vogel had to have tough conversations with the team and Elfrid commented about how it's tough watching games and seeing the mistakes you individually make, then Dante asked about Elfrid and Vogel said that he wants to challenge Elfrid to be in that disruptive defensive "do it all mindset" mode all night long instead of bringing the super high energy sporadically on defense since he's the head of the snake. He's not questioning his effort, he said he just wants him to be in that high energy mode all night. That in itself is tough because only Westbrook never seems to run out of energy and he plays zero defense, but we want Elfrid to run the team and show that defensive tenacity. I think he can do it, at the expense of his shot on certain nights.

So for one, he was asked specifically about Elfrid since Dante mentioned a quote that Elfrid said. It wasn't just a random comment of Vogel "calling out" Elfrid.

He also said this:

"He really has a pure heart. He really cares about this team and getting it into the playoffs and taking this next step. He cares about his own individual performance, and that's what I really admire about this kid. He's not always perfect but he does care and he does approach the game the right way, and I feel like he has a bright future."

So yeah, I just don't like how the thread lends to believe that Elfrid was called out randomly by the coach and leads to predictable comments about his effort from posters that have never really cared for him. Frank challenged all before the season with things he wants them to do, and now the recent talk after the Pacers game where he had to have tough conversations with all of them. He wasn't being singled out, but he was the only one asked about by Dante.

[tiderulz]

When you are a paid MILLIONS of dollars to play the game of basketball esp in the NBA and your effort and energy level is questioned.... well there is something deeply wrong with that player/person.

Nobody is questioning his effort but RealGM posters that have no basis for it.

just what we see on the court when he doesnt give effort until something happens to "light that fire". I dont expect him to score 20 ppg every night, but when his motor is going, he passes, penetrates, defends very well. He just isnt doing all those things every night. When/if he does, he will be an easy all-star, he has that ability. He just needs to tap into it every night