Magicks(15-20) @ Knicks(16-17), GAME 36 7:30 PM

[fendilim]

I agree. It's ludicrous to suggest that drafting outside of the top 5 is better than drafting within the top 5.

It's also ridiculous to suggest that the draft is all luck.

The Warriors selected Curry, Klay, Draymond

The pacers selected George and Turner

The Spurs chose Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi (draft day trade)

The thunder chose KD, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, Jackson, Adams

... The Kings selected Jimmer, McLemore, T Rob, Stauskas

Is luck really the only thing separating the Kings from the teams listed above them ?

Ok maybe not all luck but outside of okc the majority of the picks were outside the top 5 ! Meaning that tanking for extended period of time is not a good strategy. My point is that having a top 5 pick is not the only way to draft good players . it is more about maximizing the picks u do get and building a winning culture so u can develop players in a winning environment . for example we wasted our pick on mario instead of turner . if we drafted turner we would never had to give up dipo for ibaka . we could have kept him or traded him for another need and that was a top5 pick .

tanking for an extended period of time means you didnt do something right for years. If you tank, you tank hard for a year or 2 at most. You should then have a basis to build your team. random wins here or there only hurt those 2 years you tank. Any team that is tanking for years has inept scouting/draft team and FO.

tanking gives you the best chance to land a star.

[Bergmaniac]

So you believe that DRTG is an accurate measure then? I mean, does that number make sense to you?

The opposing field goal % metric is one of the few that shows how well he affects the player he is guarding. A lot of the stuff you are referring to is much more team based.

All defensive stats have their limitations. The truly elite defenders usually excel in all of them if they have at least some decent help defensively which Gordon has now with Ibaka, Biz and Payton.

Opposing player field goal % info is a nice info to have, but it depends a lot on who you are assigned to guard, the defensive scheme, the amount of switching done, how much help a player gets, etc, how much the defender plays against bench units and sometimes players look better according to it than they actually are, especially wing players. Gordon played 9 games off the bench in November and in this period his opposing field goal % stat was amazing (-9.3 % compared -4.0 % overall). In December Gordon played always as a starter and almost exclusively against other team's starting units and the result was that this stat became much worse: +3.0. I think Gordon is a very good defender, obviously not nearly as bad as his DRPM make it seem, he may be elite one day, but he's not there yet.

Opposing field goal % is a more telling stat than the drtg. Everything you just said i have said many times about drtg. If you apply what you just said to drtg than it just proves my point that the stats dont really show the story on defense. At some point you just have to watch basketball games and know what to look for. If you think Gordon does not posses elite skills on defense, than i dont know what to tell you. This is a guy who guards the best wing now every single night and then switches onto bigs and sometimes points. Not many players possess the skillset to do that effectively at such a young age. Most young players struggle on defense and its the last thing they pick up. A big reason why veterans are so valued.

Aaron gordon is doing things at age 21 on defense that most young players simply can not do as well as him. Thats what makes him elite.

Gordon is elite among players 21 year old and younger, sure. But that's a long way off from being elite among all players in the league since most players are over that age and it usually takes several years for a player to reach his top level defensively. Nobody would vote for Gordon on the All-Defense team this season except maybe Jeff Turner due to homerism (and even then he'd probably pick Ibaka or Biz before AG). If he was truly an elite defender right now, meaning Top 10 defender in the league or there about, how come he only plays 26 MPG for a coach who values defense above all else and is often on the bench in the closing minutes of close games when his backup is freaking Jeff Green?

[Mc-o]

Ok maybe not all luck but outside of okc the majority of the picks were outside the top 5 ! Meaning that tanking for extended period of time is not a good strategy. My point is that having a top 5 pick is not the only way to draft good players . it is more about maximizing the picks u do get and building a winning culture so u can develop players in a winning environment . for example we wasted our pick on mario instead of turner . if we drafted turner we would never had to give up dipo for ibaka . we could have kept him or traded him for another need and that was a top5 pick .

tanking for an extended period of time means you didnt do something right for years. If you tank, you tank hard for a year or 2 at most. You should then have a basis to build your team. random wins here or there only hurt those 2 years you tank. Any team that is tanking for years has inept scouting/draft team and FO.

tanking gives you the best chance to land a star.

It also gives u an even higher chance of not being competitive for a decade

[tiderulz]

tanking for an extended period of time means you didnt do something right for years. If you tank, you tank hard for a year or 2 at most. You should then have a basis to build your team. random wins here or there only hurt those 2 years you tank. Any team that is tanking for years has inept scouting/draft team and FO.

tanking gives you the best chance to land a star.

It also gives u an even higher chance of not being competitive for a decade

disagree. inept FO gives you that chance of not being competitive. Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

[Mc-o]

tanking gives you the best chance to land a star.

It also gives u an even higher chance of not being competitive for a decade

disagree. inept FO gives you that chance of not being competitive. Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

Well then the magic have done a lot of things wrong

[tiderulz]

It also gives u an even higher chance of not being competitive for a decade

disagree. inept FO gives you that chance of not being competitive. Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

Well then the magic have done a lot of things wrong

Well, there was a season or 2 of burning thru old, bad contracts used to keep together the core of a winning team now without a star. Then bad drafting is part of what they have done wrong. It isnt automatic that a tank wins, you have to draft correctly also. and i was unaware that we have not been competitive for a decade.

[Mc-o]

disagree. inept FO gives you that chance of not being competitive. Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

Well then the magic have done a lot of things wrong

Well, there was a season or 2 of burning thru old, bad contracts used to keep together the core of a winning team now without a star. Then bad drafting is part of what they have done wrong. It isnt automatic that a tank wins, you have to draft correctly also. and i was unaware that we have not been competitive for a decade.

Never said it's been a decade but puposely tanking rt now is not a good direction for the magic

[tiderulz]

Well, there was a season or 2 of burning thru old, bad contracts used to keep together the core of a winning team now without a star. Then bad drafting is part of what they have done wrong. It isnt automatic that a tank wins, you have to draft correctly also. and i was unaware that we have not been competitive for a decade.

Never said it's been a decade but puposely tanking rt now is not a good direction for the magic

you can see my confusion when i said

Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

and your next statement is

Well then the magic have done a lot of things wrong

thats makes it sound like we have been out for a decade. Purposefully tanking, but by playing all the youth to see if they sink or swim, to me is the best course of action. Either they sink, and we end up with a good pick, or they swim and we fully know what we have with them.

[Mc-o]

Well, there was a season or 2 of burning thru old, bad contracts used to keep together the core of a winning team now without a star. Then bad drafting is part of what they have done wrong. It isnt automatic that a tank wins, you have to draft correctly also. and i was unaware that we have not been competitive for a decade.

Never said it's been a decade but puposely tanking rt now is not a good direction for the magic

you can see my confusion when i said

Tanking for a season or 2 shouldnt take you out for a decade unless you have done a lot of other things wrong.

and your next statement is

Well then the magic have done a lot of things wrong

thats makes it sound like we have been out for a decade. Purposefully tanking, but by playing all the youth to see if they sink or swim, to me is the best course of action. Either they sink, and we end up with a good pick, or they swim and we fully know what we have with them.

Thats what the magic have been doing except
With mario. Frank hasnt given him an oppurtunity so he is the biggest mystery .

[PennytoShaq]

All defensive stats have their limitations. The truly elite defenders usually excel in all of them if they have at least some decent help defensively which Gordon has now with Ibaka, Biz and Payton.

Opposing player field goal % info is a nice info to have, but it depends a lot on who you are assigned to guard, the defensive scheme, the amount of switching done, how much help a player gets, etc, how much the defender plays against bench units and sometimes players look better according to it than they actually are, especially wing players. Gordon played 9 games off the bench in November and in this period his opposing field goal % stat was amazing (-9.3 % compared -4.0 % overall). In December Gordon played always as a starter and almost exclusively against other team's starting units and the result was that this stat became much worse: +3.0. I think Gordon is a very good defender, obviously not nearly as bad as his DRPM make it seem, he may be elite one day, but he's not there yet.

Opposing field goal % is a more telling stat than the drtg. Everything you just said i have said many times about drtg. If you apply what you just said to drtg than it just proves my point that the stats dont really show the story on defense. At some point you just have to watch basketball games and know what to look for. If you think Gordon does not posses elite skills on defense, than i dont know what to tell you. This is a guy who guards the best wing now every single night and then switches onto bigs and sometimes points. Not many players possess the skillset to do that effectively at such a young age. Most young players struggle on defense and its the last thing they pick up. A big reason why veterans are so valued.

Aaron gordon is doing things at age 21 on defense that most young players simply can not do as well as him. Thats what makes him elite.

Gordon is elite among players 21 year old and younger, sure. But that's a long way off from being elite among all players in the league since most players are over that age and it usually takes several years for a player to reach his top level defensively. Nobody would vote for Gordon on the All-Defense team this season except maybe Jeff Turner due to homerism (and even then he'd probably pick Ibaka or Biz before AG). If he was truly an elite defender right now, meaning Top 10 defender in the league or there about, how come he only plays 26 MPG for a coach who values defense above all else and is often on the bench in the closing minutes of close games when his backup is freaking Jeff Green?

He is playing that many MPG because he has switched full time to a new position and they are keeping his minutes limited while he learns it. That's been stated by Vogel multiple times already and anyone who follows Gordon should already know this.

Again, you just said what I did - Vets are better on D, it takes years to get there. My point was that Gordon is as good on defense as his peers like Wiggins and Parker are on Offense. He clearly has elite defensive skills already and his minutes will only increase the more his offense catches up.

[Blue_and_Whte]

The Warriors selected Curry, Klay, Draymond

They also selected Mike Dunleavy No. 3 in 2002, Ike Diogu No. 9 in 2005, and Patrick O'Bryant No. 9 in 2006. So lets not pretend they're draft geniuses. Green went fell 11 spots from his projected range of 24th to 35th, not to mention the Warriors actually passed on him at 30 for Festus Ezeli so they had absolutely nothing to lose taking him that late. Thompson went exactly where he was projected to go (11th) as did Curry (7th)

The pacers selected George and Turner

- Myles Turner was projected to go 10th. He went 11th. George was projected to go 12th so I guess they get credit for picking him two spots higher (10th). The point is, its not like they reached to the depths of the first or early second round because of uncanny scouting talent. Those guys were picked within their range.

The Spurs chose Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi (draft day trade)

- Duncan was a consensus No 1 pick so that was a no brainer. I give them credit for finding Manu, Parker and trading George Hill for Leonard who fell to 15th from 9th where he was projected to go. The trade made sense considering they had Parker.

The thunder chose KD, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka, Jackson, Adams

- KD was a consensus top 2 pick. Harden was projected to go in the top 4 or 5, OKC picked him 3rd. Westbrook, projected to go 5th and went 3rd. The others were good picks.

... The Kings selected Jimmer, McLemore, T Rob, Stauskas Is luck really the only thing separating the Kings from the teams listed above them ?

The Kings have been one of the worst run organizations in recent memory (Outside of the Knicks). But you can look back at picks like Marvin Williams over Chris Paul, the TWolves with 10 top 5 picks since 1994. The point is that its probably a good mix of luck and skill. I still don't think we should start losing again and hope we're lucky. That could set us back

start losing? You imply we are a winning atm?

We were obviously talking about tanking so that's what I meant. I guess in either scenario players always try to win games, but the idea that we should trade all of our contributing players and build around one or two young guys hoping for a high pick AGAIN sets us back imo.

Something I found interesting is that Gordon had a 35% usage rate the last game, highest on the team, and is currently at 20% up from 15% his rookie year.