2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[TMU]

No one, outside of Rockets fans, said this before this season started.

Are you serious? Not a Rockets fan at all, but I would easily take that Rockets supporting cast over OKC's assuming equal health. Would've said that before the season as well no question. The difference in perimeter shooting especially is just night and day and I didn't need to see the start of the season to know that.

You may have felt that way but the general census wasn't so optimistic.
5 analyst's from CBS Sports gave the Rockets an average of 44 wins and the Thunder 45.
Bleacher report 42 wins 46 Thunder
fivethirtyeight.com 45 50
ESPN 41 44
Vegas 43 45
Fox Sports 41 45
USA Today 40 44

All of them had the Rockets as a borderline .500, 8th seed at best team before the season with the Thunder being around 4 games better. Either they felt that Harden had superior talent around him, but Westbrook was so superior to Harden that it would make up the difference (and then some), or that the Thunder's roster and star player were just as talented as the Rockets if not more. I think the latter is more likely. How many people raved about Harrell, Dekker, and Capela before the season?

Great great post. I think it's more that the media didn't believe that Harden could carry a team like Westbrook. IMO OKC's frontcourt with Adams and Kanter is slightly better than the Rockets (close if Capela was healthy). I do think the Rockets have a better bench and therefore, more depth. Now this all may be true because of the MDA system, which makes shooters, like Anderson and Gordon, look better.

Either way, the Rockets are doing something right this season. What bothers me more is when people try to discredit Harden's feat because he plays in MDA's system. And then you have a group of people who discount MDA as a coach. The MDA system requires a facilitator to make these shooters better and who's those players better? James Harden. So clearly, something's gotta give.

[bondom34]

Adding another, CBS had a split on OKC and Houston.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-17-nba-expert-predictions-each-teams-win-total-can-warriors-top-73/

3 OKC, 2 Houston. But again, the defense was the question. Harden is my MVP as well, but the questions on the team weren't offense, or Harden. Health and defense.

[TMU]

The bottomline is that both are worthy of MVP considerations, and I'm happy to see either one win it. Any dirt that rubs off KD's face will do it. Westbrook is a beast and he gives his night in and night out. Harden has been nothing but exceptional and no one saw him to be this good of a playmaker.

But to discount Harden because he plays for MDA or because he already has shooters is purely absurd. How was Carmelo Anthony with MDA? Not anyone can play under him. Also, having shooters without a facilitator doesn't mean jack ****.

[bondom34]

The bottomline is that both are worthy of MVP considerations, and I'm happy to see either one win it. Any dirt that rubs off KD's face will do it. Westbrook is a beast and he gives his night in and night out. Harden has been nothing but exceptional and no one saw him to be this good of a playmaker.

But to discount Harden because he plays for MDA or because he already has shooters is purely absurd. How was Carmelo Anthony with MDA? Not anyone can play under him. Also, having shooters without a facilitator doesn't mean jack ****.

Sorry if it read that way, definitely not trying to do that. He's being compared to Nash under MDA offensively at this point, he's been unhuman. Both guys have, and to me you can't go wrong either way. Right now they're the 2 best in the league to me, and doing more work offensively than anyone. I know the fan in me wouldn't trade Russ for anyone, and I know Rockets fans feel the same.

[TMU]

The bottomline is that both are worthy of MVP considerations, and I'm happy to see either one win it. Any dirt that rubs off KD's face will do it. Westbrook is a beast and he gives his night in and night out. Harden has been nothing but exceptional and no one saw him to be this good of a playmaker.

But to discount Harden because he plays for MDA or because he already has shooters is purely absurd. How was Carmelo Anthony with MDA? Not anyone can play under him. Also, having shooters without a facilitator doesn't mean jack ****.

Sorry if it read that way, definitely not trying to do that. He's being compared to Nash under MDA offensively at this point, he's been unhuman. Both guys have, and to me you can't go wrong either way.

Oh my bad for the misunderstanding. It wasn't in reference to your post or the link. It was targeted to those with persistent irrational disdain for Harden.

/RANT

[bondom34]

The bottomline is that both are worthy of MVP considerations, and I'm happy to see either one win it. Any dirt that rubs off KD's face will do it. Westbrook is a beast and he gives his night in and night out. Harden has been nothing but exceptional and no one saw him to be this good of a playmaker.

But to discount Harden because he plays for MDA or because he already has shooters is purely absurd. How was Carmelo Anthony with MDA? Not anyone can play under him. Also, having shooters without a facilitator doesn't mean jack ****.

Sorry if it read that way, definitely not trying to do that. He's being compared to Nash under MDA offensively at this point, he's been unhuman. Both guys have, and to me you can't go wrong either way.

Oh my bad for the misunderstanding. It wasn't in reference to your post or the link. It was targeted to those with persistent irrational disdain for Harden.

/RANT

Something something stat padder something ball hog something something?

[Gibson22]

1) Harden by a good margin. he's clearly playing better than anyone.
2/3) Lbj and rw i'd say in this order. lebron is not playing worse than rw, he's better in scoring (-5 points with -5 shots and -5 ft is better), defending better, playmaking equal (8.6 assist to 10.5 with much more possessions). +2 rebounds for rw but a much worse team record.
4) Durant.

[ken6199]

Adding another, CBS had a split on OKC and Houston.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-17-nba-expert-predictions-each-teams-win-total-can-warriors-top-73/

3 OKC, 2 Houston. But again, the defense was the question. Harden is my MVP as well, but the questions on the team weren't offense, or Harden. Health and defense.

General perception is a tricky thing. Before having Anderson and Gordon on my team which I watch a lot more closely than Pelicans, I too, had the common impression 'those guys always got injured, they are lousy defenders, etc. etc.'. Health-wise, yeah also a huge surprise. Gordon actually shook off a couple of minor injuries and didn't miss a game. Two years ago that's half a season off being blown at.

Gordon has been surprisingly a better defender than given credit for, and Anderson is an underrated offensive rebounder. Those were my biggest two impressions so far. They are certainly not those bad defenders that Kendrik Perkins can dribble and blow by

Another dangerous trap I see people are falling into is, debating how good the Rockets supporting cast is based on the current level of their play vs how they were rated in the off season. I clearly remember two years ago, the biggest debate in MVP thread was "Curry has an awesome supporting cast" vs "No, it's Curry who made them so awesome". Both are legit arguments, but it's too easy not to fall in one of those two traps.

[bwgood77]

I don't know what the voting would look like now based on who votes on it, but typically the guy on the team that is more near the top of the standings, and usually in the top 2 (or 3/4 if it's really close in record) gets it. Usually if a team was way out ahead it comes from that team, so even KD would have a chance, but I think given his circumstance and other good players, he doesn't have a chance.

Since there seems to be a split debate with Harden leading a team with 5 1/5 games and 4 seeds ahead, leads me to believe many or even most (if voting is fairly split at this point) think Westbrook is playing at a higher level.

But it may be more like 75/25 or more. I simply don't know, and if so, that would even out who most think is playing better.

But it always comes down to who plays for the better team, especially if it's close (and I'm not sure how close it is) so at this point, it seems like it would almost certainly be Harden. Though it's still early in the season so it's a bit premature to make any sort of a definitive decision now.

[khufure]

JB having a great year on both sides of the ball

Watch on YouTube

[inquisitive]

does anyone have a list of the actual people(nba sportswriters/analysts) who are actually voting for the mvp? i would like to tweet or email them something.

[inquisitive]

before the season, people/national media were writing off the rockets and harden.

[Ballerhogger]

Other factors that can play into a MVP race is the supporting cast getting hurt , that would definitely be a factor for Harden. They have injury prone players. The leader is harden but it's long ride guys.

[Hero]

Also: entering the Pelicans game last night, Cavs have league's best win percentage and 2nd toughest schedule in games LeBron has played.

https://m.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5llxjb/in_the_29_games_in_which_lebron_has_played_this/

Not really seeing the case for Westbrook over LeBron at the moment. RW has double the losses that LBJ has. Plus 2 of the Cavs losses were when LeBron rested and the team looked like garbage without him. Plus he's carried the team to some decent wins when Kyrie was out.

[K_chile22]

Other factors that can play into a MVP race is the supporting cast getting hurt , that would definitely be a factor for Harden. They have injury prone players. The leader is harden but it's long ride guys.

Well they've had Clint and Bev miss significant time already and I'd say they're staying afloat

[ballbrah]

Harden
Bron
Westbrook

Is the list right now. Don't see anyone else having a chance tbh.

[B-easy]

Harden
Bron
Westbrook

Is the list right now. Don't see anyone else having a chance tbh.

Why not KD? Best player on the best team.

[ThomYorke]

I think a few people have called that the tough schedule in Jan may hurt Russ' chances, looking like that may be true. His shooting has been awful the last few games.

A huge H2H between the two frontrunners tomorrow, a big win for Harden will probably see him take over in the conversation for favouritism.

Kahwi is being slept on, LeBron is just being LeBron and won't catch enough attention, while KD is being judged extremely hard based on his team. Butler, Lowry and Giannis will be affected by poor team records

[ken6199]

Harden
Bron
Westbrook

Is the list right now. Don't see anyone else having a chance tbh.

Why not KD? Best player on the best team.

I would add KD too, it's Harden-Westbrook-KD for me.

But it has nothing to do with 'best player on the best team' - an argument I started to hate 2 years ago ( ). It's a misleading narrative, which means KD will still need to be considered if 5 other players average 80/30/30 per game on the season with 99% TS. 'best player on the best team' needs to go.

[QRich3]

In regards to the Harden-Westbrook debate, and how it was thought that Houston was slightly worse at the start of the season, but there's still an argument to be made that he has better teammates, I think it's clear why.

Either Harden or Westbrook, the case you want to make for whichever one of them is based solely on their offensive prowess. Which is awesome in both cases, close to never-before-seen stuff, but neither has much if any positive impact defensively. Offensively, Harden has much better teammates, no doubt about that, now or in October. Defensively, it's Russ' without a doubt (even though their defenses are not that different right now, talent wise it should be OKC clearly).

So, you can perfectly say both that OKC has/would have a better team overall, while saying that Harden has better teammates to help him make a case for MVP. Obviously Harden being surrounded by shooters that fit around him like a glove, helps boost his AST numbers, his own scoring efficiency, and the team's ORtg. While in theory, Westbrook has more of an excuse for being less efficient, more turnover prone and has it harder to rack up assists, but his team's record should still be better or at least around Houston's, because he has teammates that pick up the defense for him.

Obviously, that's not exactly the case and OKC's defense is just above Houston's so far, while their offense is predictably worse, which makes them have a worse record and Harden be the clear favorite so far. Which makes you wonder again, how guilty is Westbrook that OKC's defense has been worse than projected (or Houston's better) and how much should his MVP chances be affected because of it?