GT: Utah Jazz @ Barclays Center - Monday, 1/2/17. 7:30pm. Joe Jesus returns

[Prokorov]

And believe me, I am defensive about many of these guys because I feel like they care, they are working hard, they want to be here, and are trying their best win or lose, mistake or no mistake. If you were here to see some of the awful teams that we've had where guys didn't give a ****, you'd understand why I appreciate guys like Booker, RHJ, Whitehead, hell even Lopez despite him really being on my **** list right now for what he did the other night versus Gobert. If someone were to trash Lin, I'd be just as defensive because i know he cares, tries hard, plays with max effort. When you go through years of seeing guys like Deron Williams not give a rat's ass about what happens, you come to appreciate players like the ones we have because at least you know that they care and want to work on becoming better.

This is an important point... while I get/appreciate the new fans here watch all the games, and even bough LP to do so (i have to as well living in boston) you dont know what things have been like for this franchise the past decade.

This team lost seventy (70) games! and what is worse, that season was easier to sit through then the year we won 49 games. That year 1 brooklyn team was one of, if not the hardest season to endure as a nets fan. the PR staff pushed these guys. the players did not give a crap. our record was fools gold since our record vs .500+ teams was awful, we just beat all the bad teams. The team was super soft and got exposed really quick.

but most of all, it was the lack of effort, heart, talent. I'm trying to find a post from the playoffs that year where i said id rather be a lotto team that plays hard then watch this.... and its true. watching this team with a bunch of young guys and jags busting their tails every night and caring about winning is alot easier to watch then Deron and Lopez loaf around while they get smacked by some time who out efforts them with way less talent.

We saw what happens when you tank (70 loss season) it doesnt really work unless you get lucky and this franchise is NOT lucky.

We tried to buy a team and turn it around quick by overpaying for guys. and that doesnt work. we didnt get far and no one cared as long as they could cash their checks.

this team needed a MAJOR ground up overhaul starting with attitude and culture. which is why so far this season to me is an enormous success and one i dont measure by record. if we dont win again this season it wont matter to me as long as guys play hard and continue to develop.

[MrDollarBills]

LOL, the Nets locker room bickering has seeped into the online forums. The pain from having the worst record in the NBA is real!

I give the old-timers a lot of slack because of (1) the traumatic Nets history, and (2) they've been welcoming of new fans, at least initially.

This being said, I agree with hood30 and pistolpete, us "newtimers" don't have an agenda, except to root for the Nets and Jeremy Lin. We give the old-timers the benefit of the doubt that they'll assess Jeremy Lin and his fans based on their objective experience rather than the second-hand comments of posters from other team forums. So we hope the old-timers will give us the benefit of the doubt that we are rooting for the Nets, and making comments on Nets players, objectively, rather than with a hidden agenda or motive. Just because we like Lin doesn't mean that we can't be objective about assessing other players and the team.

Whitehead should be proud of the season that he's had because he's made a lot of progress but it shouldn't discount what he's done in college (his track record) and his current rookie stats (for projection purposes). Even if Lin were not a Net, I would still rate Whitehead's ceiling as a marginal rotation player for a good team. Again, his ceiling - to me -- is Patrick Beverley, a 3 and D player. Bws94 said that Whitehead is not exactly like Beverley, which I admit, but I'm not sure what other direction Whitehead can go. If you're not a PG, then you're a combo/SG and you have to be able to shoot the 3 and FT with a high percentage. You also need to be able to play good D. Going forward, Whitehead will not have sustainable value unless he can improve his shot -- really, that's all he needs, get his 3PT% to be above 37% and his FT% to low 80%, and he always have a role in this league. His sub-40% FG% number in college is a bad sign, though. Can anyone find an example of a player who shot sub 40% FG for two years in college that is doing well in the NBA today?

Oh, there is an agenda when you have "newtimers" commenting that so and so needs to not play because he's wasting Lin's limited minutes, saying that the Nets are wasting Lin's prime years, taking one longtime poster's comments about development means more than winning out of context to now paint the Nets as a whole as not trying to win games, routine disrespect for the team's coach, saying Lopez and Kilpatrick wouldn't have gotten into an argument because Lin would have put them in their places, etc etc. When you see stuff like that, as a long time fan of the team its irritating to see people who are, no offense, merely halfway invested in this team taking shots like that. The stuff regarding Whitehead only getting a chance because Lin was hurt and would be in the d league otherwise isn't really an objective analysis to me, more like someone being vindictive over a young guy exceeding expectations and being praised for it. Lin might be playing overseas right now if the guy in front of him didn't go down prior to Linsanity, but someone who is objective wouldn't look at it that way, they'd call it for what it is: a young player being prepared for an opportunity and tackling it head on. Stuff like that is just passive aggressive negativity and I'm not scared to call people on it, but I do admit that i don't need to do it out of anger.

Regarding Whitehead, I think he's exceeded expectations thus far, and its a bit too early to cap his ceiling based on his college shooting numbers. Many players in the league have come in as sub par shooters and have improved as their career went on. I'm not predicting him to be anything but a guy that could develop into a good rotational combo guard to be bluntly honest, his defensive chops. Either way, for a 2nd round pick to come in and out perform guys taken ahead of him and improve week to week while learning one of the toughest positions in the sport as a rookie is a good sign for him and i hope he keeps up the hard work.

[Prokorov]

This being said, I agree with hood30 and pistolpete, us "newtimers" don't have an agenda, except to root for the Nets and Jeremy Lin. We give the old-timers the benefit of the doubt that they'll assess Jeremy Lin and his fans based on their objective experience rather than the second-hand comments of posters from other team forums. So we hope the old-timers will give us the benefit of the doubt that we are rooting for the Nets, and making comments on Nets players, objectively, rather than with a hidden agenda or motive. Just because we like Lin doesn't mean that we can't be objective about assessing other players and the team.

I think the disconnect is that Lin fans are rooting for the Nets to win now and not so much win in the future when lin may or may not be here. I think a majority (not all) are upset the nets arent better because it doesnt make Lin look as good as if the nets were winning more.

I think all nets fans want the nets to win every night, and cheer for us to do so. but when we dont (which is expected) long time nets fans dont mind because they see the plan and see how winning isnt a part of that plan right now. Where as alot of Lin fans dont think that way... at least from what I gather from whats posted in game threads.

I like Lin, he plays hard and he works hard. my only issue with Lin is when some people compare him to James Harden or other superstars, and then blame the team/coach for these losses as if lin is some super talent being dragged down.

I assumed there was a disconnect early on when some newer fans were predicting 35,40,40+ wins. I didnt think we would win 19 like the vegas over under, but 25ish seemed like a lock. I think alot of new fans are just coming to grips with that and are frustrated lin isnt on a team that is overachieving from a W/L standpoint.

Also posts like:

"Bench RHJ, he is wasting Lins minutes on the court he cant hit a shot"

Certainly dont help.

[playteamball]

Watch on YouTube

I'm liking what I'm seeing from the kids. Rondae is excelling as a backup PF. He's starting to carve a nice niche drawing fouls and staying within the mid-range. He should really stick to that. That's the method of development that blossomed DeMar DeRozan into a throwback scorer.

Whitehead made some bad TOs but he continues to show improvement. His jumper looks better and better. The rebounding is great. He's got a long road ahead of him trying to learn the point guard position.

People here kill him so much for his decision making but the kid is used to zone defense and a bunch of soft kids who are not NBA talent. I trust Kenny to get the best out of him because he's done it before from Lin to Teague to Schroeder.

LeVert didn't have a good game. Seemed to be forcing the action. I'd like to see him get more touches with the bench unit. I'd rather see how he does with the ball in his hands than Dinwiddie who seems more like a SG.

Joe Harris. I like him. He's only 25 and he's putting up 47/37/75. That's about the age most good shooters begin to increase their efficiency. I don't expect much defensively but he competes and isn't afraid of rebounds.

Just Hamilton can go kick rocks. I like his shooting ability and I'm not even concerned about his slump but he's a complete moron on the defensive side of the floor and it's not even that. He doesn't compete on the glass. He doesn't know much except to defend vertically. Time to move on. I'd rather call up McCullough and see him play.

I'm going to officially say...with Lin out with this second injury. It's time to just move on from Brook at deadline and draft a replacement. Move Bojan/Lopez/Bennett.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I agree completely with everything except about Hamilton. I admit that I have not yet watched the Utah game yet, but he showed good bbiq earlier in the season, is unselfish, and is much quicker than Lopez defensively.

[MrDollarBills]

And believe me, I am defensive about many of these guys because I feel like they care, they are working hard, they want to be here, and are trying their best win or lose, mistake or no mistake. If you were here to see some of the awful teams that we've had where guys didn't give a ****, you'd understand why I appreciate guys like Booker, RHJ, Whitehead, hell even Lopez despite him really being on my **** list right now for what he did the other night versus Gobert. If someone were to trash Lin, I'd be just as defensive because i know he cares, tries hard, plays with max effort. When you go through years of seeing guys like Deron Williams not give a rat's ass about what happens, you come to appreciate players like the ones we have because at least you know that they care and want to work on becoming better.

This is an important point... while I get/appreciate the new fans here watch all the games, and even bough LP to do so (i have to as well living in boston) you dont know what things have been like for this franchise the past decade.

This team lost seventy (70) games! and what is worse, that season was easier to sit through then the year we won 49 games. That year 1 brooklyn team was one of, if not the hardest season to endure as a nets fan. the PR staff pushed these guys. the players did not give a crap. our record was fools gold since our record vs .500+ teams was awful, we just beat all the bad teams. The team was super soft and got exposed really quick.

but most of all, it was the lack of effort, heart, talent. I'm trying to find a post from the playoffs that year where i said id rather be a lotto team that plays hard then watch this.... and its true. watching this team with a bunch of young guys and jags busting their tails every night and caring about winning is alot easier to watch then Deron and Lopez loaf around while they get smacked by some time who out efforts them with way less talent.

We saw what happens when you tank (70 loss season) it doesnt really work unless you get lucky and this franchise is NOT lucky.

We tried to buy a team and turn it around quick by overpaying for guys. and that doesnt work. we didnt get far and no one cared as long as they could cash their checks.

this team needed a MAJOR ground up overhaul starting with attitude and culture. which is why so far this season to me is an enormous success and one i dont measure by record. if we dont win again this season it wont matter to me as long as guys play hard and continue to develop.

Yeah, I've had more fun watching these guys play this year win or lose in most of these games because they're all for a lack of a better set of words: a bunch of try hards. The games are fun to watch and I leave most games thinking "man, if we just had one or two more talented guys we would have definitely beat them". That's far cry from 2012 where we had a ton of talent but a bunch of guys playing whoopty damn doo basketball. Friday night mail in games were the norms, a bunch of overpaid mercenaries sleep walking in games versus scrub teams and then getting completely blown off of the floor on national tv contests versus the heavy hitters/ Or how about in the 2013-14 season where the team routinely tanked games, or Deron just not even bother to show up.

While I don't like losing, at least I'm enjoying watching these guys play, watching guys add new parts to their games, seeing kids with a great set of attitudes learn, compete and improve, seeing a GM come in here and try to conduct this franchise like there's a damn adult in the room, seeing a coach who consistently gets his guys, who are very limited overall talent wise, to play nearly every game like its a playoff game, etc...so to see commentary poo poo'ing what we're doing, it can be taken the wrong way. I can and will try to do a better job of being empathetic to the fact that the newfans don't realize why some or most of us here are taking this all in stride instead of trashing everyone because our record blow, but having a sense of differing perspectives can go both ways.

[MrDollarBills]

Watch on YouTube

I'm liking what I'm seeing from the kids. Rondae is excelling as a backup PF. He's starting to carve a nice niche drawing fouls and staying within the mid-range. He should really stick to that. That's the method of development that blossomed DeMar DeRozan into a throwback scorer.

Whitehead made some bad TOs but he continues to show improvement. His jumper looks better and better. The rebounding is great. He's got a long road ahead of him trying to learn the point guard position.

People here kill him so much for his decision making but the kid is used to zone defense and a bunch of soft kids who are not NBA talent. I trust Kenny to get the best out of him because he's done it before from Lin to Teague to Schroeder.

LeVert didn't have a good game. Seemed to be forcing the action. I'd like to see him get more touches with the bench unit. I'd rather see how he does with the ball in his hands than Dinwiddie who seems more like a SG.

Joe Harris. I like him. He's only 25 and he's putting up 47/37/75. That's about the age most good shooters begin to increase their efficiency. I don't expect much defensively but he competes and isn't afraid of rebounds.

Just Hamilton can go kick rocks. I like his shooting ability and I'm not even concerned about his slump but he's a complete moron on the defensive side of the floor and it's not even that. He doesn't compete on the glass. He doesn't know much except to defend vertically. Time to move on. I'd rather call up McCullough and see him play.

I'm going to officially say...with Lin out with this second injury. It's time to just move on from Brook at deadline and draft a replacement. Move Bojan/Lopez/Bennett.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I agree completely with everything except about Hamilton. I admit that I have not yet watched the Utah game yet, but he showed good bbiq earlier in the season, is unselfish, and is much quicker than Lopez defensively.

I thought that Hamilton, while he had some gaffes, wasn't -that- bad in the Utah game, he worked the glass well and made a few plays, but I guess the plays where he got completely annihilated in the paint didn't help his case.

That being said, I am eager to get McCullough back into the mix.

[Elmhurst NY]

I understand as as die hard Nets fan, your assessment about your own rookie will always be rosier than an outsider looking in from the outside.....I've seen this again and again, so I'm not surprised by your rant..The facts are that Whitehead hasn't done enough to warrant even a back-up NBA PG spot on any NBA team, unless winning is at the bottom of your priority...I couldn't care less about his age or whether he was a second round draft pick when it's time to assess a player that will be competing against next year class of draftees entering the league

Even if you don't care about winning and only wants to develop, there's always a chance you could find someone in next year draft or in the D-league that has better potential than Whitehead...or maybe Dinnwiddie could show much more once we gets a better stretch of minutes to assess.

In the NBA, dozens of young players gets drafted every year, so when you get your big shot, you better make the best out of it since many are waiting on the wing to take your spot...I'm simply telling you that Whitehead could easily be out of the league once the new crop of young guys arrives next year and it really doesn't matter whether he's 21 and just getting started when it's time to decide whether he's worth further development on an NBA roster.

Whitehead stats as a starter are far from average and while he's improved his shooting a bit, that's only because they were so bad that the only way was up....I also own similar opinion about RHJ who is a low-ceiling young player..If my assessment makes you angry, so be it...I'm not stating these to annoy you..I'm just giving you a genuine assessment about Whitehead and RHJ.

If die hard Net fans look at their players through rose colored glasses, what about those Lin only fans (like youself)? As a Lin fan I cringe every time one of you say Lin is better than Harden or Lin should start over Kemba or LIn's a victim of (insert excuse). First thought reading your post about Whitehead was 'why is this person so against WH?' It's as if you see him as a threat to Lin. You can't build Lin up by tearing everyone else down. And why do you say Whitehead didn't earn his spot? Maybe he destroys Lin in practice like Beverly did in Houston. Maybe the coaches see something in this kid that you don't. The improvements he has made in the 30 something games is impressive.
My "genuine" assessment as a Lin fan is that both Whitehead and RHJ's ceilings are higher than Lin. Lin has already peaked. He is a borderline starter and there's no shame in that. He has exceeded expectations. But now he has become injury prone and it will negate the one small advantage he has had, quick first step. It's now clear that his handles, shooting will stay below average. No sign he'll ever stop making dumb turnovers or fire up bricks during crunch time. But his defense has improved so LOFs can hang their hat on that.

[playteamball]

And believe me, I am defensive about many of these guys because I feel like they care, they are working hard, they want to be here, and are trying their best win or lose, mistake or no mistake. If you were here to see some of the awful teams that we've had where guys didn't give a ****, you'd understand why I appreciate guys like Booker, RHJ, Whitehead, hell even Lopez despite him really being on my **** list right now for what he did the other night versus Gobert. If someone were to trash Lin, I'd be just as defensive because i know he cares, tries hard, plays with max effort. When you go through years of seeing guys like Deron Williams not give a rat's ass about what happens, you come to appreciate players like the ones we have because at least you know that they care and want to work on becoming better.

This is an important point... while I get/appreciate the new fans here watch all the games, and even bough LP to do so (i have to as well living in boston) you dont know what things have been like for this franchise the past decade.

This team lost seventy (70) games! and what is worse, that season was easier to sit through then the year we won 49 games. That year 1 brooklyn team was one of, if not the hardest season to endure as a nets fan. the PR staff pushed these guys. the players did not give a crap. our record was fools gold since our record vs .500+ teams was awful, we just beat all the bad teams. The team was super soft and got exposed really quick.

but most of all, it was the lack of effort, heart, talent. I'm trying to find a post from the playoffs that year where i said id rather be a lotto team that plays hard then watch this.... and its true. watching this team with a bunch of young guys and jags busting their tails every night and caring about winning is alot easier to watch then Deron and Lopez loaf around while they get smacked by some time who out efforts them with way less talent.

We saw what happens when you tank (70 loss season) it doesnt really work unless you get lucky and this franchise is NOT lucky.

We tried to buy a team and turn it around quick by overpaying for guys. and that doesnt work. we didnt get far and no one cared as long as they could cash their checks.

this team needed a MAJOR ground up overhaul starting with attitude and culture. which is why so far this season to me is an enormous success and one i dont measure by record. if we dont win again this season it wont matter to me as long as guys play hard and continue to develop.

Yeah, I've had more fun watching these guys play this year win or lose in most of these games because they're all for a lack of a better set of words: a bunch of try hards. The games are fun to watch and I leave most games thinking "man, if we just had one or two more talented guys we would have definitely beat them". That's far cry from 2012 where we had a ton of talent but a bunch of guys playing whoopty damn doo basketball. Friday night mail in games were the norms, a bunch of overpaid mercenaries sleep walking in games versus scrub teams and then getting completely blown off of the floor on national tv contests versus the heavy hitters/ Or how about in the 2013-14 season where the team routinely tanked games, or Deron just not even bother to show up.

While I don't like losing, at least I'm enjoying watching these guys play, watching guys add new parts to their games, seeing kids with a great set of attitudes learn, compete and improve, seeing a GM come in here and try to conduct this franchise like there's a damn adult in the room, seeing a coach who consistently gets his guys, who are very limited overall talent wise, to play nearly every game like its a playoff game, etc...so to see commentary poo poo'ing what we're doing, it can be taken the wrong way. I can and will try to do a better job of being empathetic to the fact that the newfans don't realize why some or most of us here are taking this all in stride instead of trashing everyone because our record blow, but having a sense of differing perspectives can go both ways.

I like the passion of this team, the management, and I like the passion of these posts. I think there were a few Lin fans (or possibly trolls) who went a bit overboard earlier in the season, but things have really died down since then, and I see most if not all remaining Lin fans making rational, reasonable posts. I think the recent assessments of Whitehead from the Lin fans (who are also now Nets fans, by the way) are pretty accurate, and if there is a slight inaccuracy, they can be corrected by responding without such anger and assumptions that there is a hidden Lin agenda. Not everyone can post incredibly accurate and thoughtful, well-rounded posts like Spaceballer, and that goes for new Lin/Nets fans and old Nets fans as well. If we can all remember that we have the same goal in mind--success of the Nets (and thereby success of everyone affiliated with the Nets, whether that be Lin, RHJ, Whitehead, Atkinson, Marks, or whomever), then I think we can have good discussions and debates going back and forth where we correct each other and offer different opinions without anger or suspicion, at least until a troll pops up again.

[playteamball]

I understand as as die hard Nets fan, your assessment about your own rookie will always be rosier than an outsider looking in from the outside.....I've seen this again and again, so I'm not surprised by your rant..The facts are that Whitehead hasn't done enough to warrant even a back-up NBA PG spot on any NBA team, unless winning is at the bottom of your priority...I couldn't care less about his age or whether he was a second round draft pick when it's time to assess a player that will be competing against next year class of draftees entering the league

Even if you don't care about winning and only wants to develop, there's always a chance you could find someone in next year draft or in the D-league that has better potential than Whitehead...or maybe Dinnwiddie could show much more once we gets a better stretch of minutes to assess.

In the NBA, dozens of young players gets drafted every year, so when you get your big shot, you better make the best out of it since many are waiting on the wing to take your spot...I'm simply telling you that Whitehead could easily be out of the league once the new crop of young guys arrives next year and it really doesn't matter whether he's 21 and just getting started when it's time to decide whether he's worth further development on an NBA roster.

Whitehead stats as a starter are far from average and while he's improved his shooting a bit, that's only because they were so bad that the only way was up....I also own similar opinion about RHJ who is a low-ceiling young player..If my assessment makes you angry, so be it...I'm not stating these to annoy you..I'm just giving you a genuine assessment about Whitehead and RHJ.

If die hard Net fans look at their players through rose colored glasses, what about those Lin only fans (like youself)? As a Lin fan I cringe every time one of you say Lin is better than Harden or Lin should start over Kemba or LIn's a victim of (insert excuse). First thought reading your post about Whitehead was 'why is this person so against WH?' It's as if you see him as a threat to Lin. You can't build Lin up by tearing everyone else down. And why do you say Whitehead didn't earn his spot? Maybe he destroys Lin in practice like Beverly did in Houston. Maybe the coaches see something in this kid that you don't. The improvements he has made in the 30 something games is impressive.
My "genuine" assessment as a Lin fan is that both Whitehead and RHJ's ceilings are higher than Lin. Lin has already peaked. He is a borderline starter and there's no shame in that. He has exceeded expectations. But now he has become injury prone and it will negate the one small advantage he has had, quick first step. It's clear now that his handles, shooting will stay below average. No sign he'll ever stop making dumb turnovers or fire up bricks during crunch time. But his defense has improved so LOFs can hang their hat on that.

I can't imagine that you are really a Lin fan who knows basketball well if you think that both Whitehead and RHJ have higher ceilings than Lin. Compare Lin's first few NBA starts to Whitehead's first few NBA starts. And if you say that Whitehead was only a PG in college, well Lin was not a PG in college at all--he played SG all four years.

Lin also tested as being quicker than everyone (John Wall-speed) at the combines, so he has much more than just a quick first step.

I could go on and on, but I will stop here.

[Roy Tarpley]

Pretty solid analysis. Here's my take:

I think the disconnect is that Lin fans are rooting for the Nets to win now and not so much win in the future when lin may or may not be here. I think a majority (not all) are upset the nets arent better because it doesnt make Lin look as good as if the nets were winning more.

Speaking only for myself, I think the disconnect is that "some" Lin fans think the Nets have the talent right now to compete (i.e., win 30-40 games) when Lin is here AND also prepare to win in the future when Lin may or may not be here. It's a slight difference in nuance. For example, RHJ and Levert have talent, and I wish they would get more playing time. You can play them more, which I think would help win now AND prepare these talents for winning in the future. We are upset that the Nets aren't better because clearly it means Lin isn't helping but ALSO because we thought the Nets were more talented.

I think all nets fans want the nets to win every night, and cheer for us to do so. but when we dont (which is expected) long time nets fans dont mind because they see the plan and see how winning isnt a part of that plan right now. Where as alot of Lin fans dont think that way... at least from what I gather from whats posted in game threads..

We are angry when the Nets lose due to mistakes or coaching blunders. You can still win games and not undermine development.

"Bench RHJ, he is wasting Lins minutes on the court he cant hit a shot"

Certainly dont help.

Yeah, I cringe at quotes like these.

[Prokorov]

I like the passion of this team, the management, and I like the passion of these posts. I think there were a few Lin fans (or possibly trolls) who went a bit overboard earlier in the season, but things have really died down since then, and I see most if not all remaining Lin fans making rational, reasonable posts. I think the recent assessments of Whitehead from the Lin fans (who are also now Nets fans, by the way) are pretty accurate, and if there is a slight inaccuracy, they can be corrected by responding without such anger and assumptions that there is a hidden Lin agenda. Not everyone can post incredibly accurate and thoughtful, well-rounded posts like Spaceballer, and that goes for new Lin/Nets fans and old Nets fans as well. If we can all remember that we have the same goal in mind--success of the Nets (and thereby success of everyone affiliated with the Nets, whether that be Lin, RHJ, Whitehead, Atkinson, Marks, or whomever), then I think we can have good discussions and debates going back and forth where we correct each other and offer different opinions without anger or suspicion, at least until a troll pops up again.

I disagree its died down. we literally just debated Lins impact vs hardens last night again on this forum.

[MrDollarBills]

This is an important point... while I get/appreciate the new fans here watch all the games, and even bough LP to do so (i have to as well living in boston) you dont know what things have been like for this franchise the past decade.

This team lost seventy (70) games! and what is worse, that season was easier to sit through then the year we won 49 games. That year 1 brooklyn team was one of, if not the hardest season to endure as a nets fan. the PR staff pushed these guys. the players did not give a crap. our record was fools gold since our record vs .500+ teams was awful, we just beat all the bad teams. The team was super soft and got exposed really quick.

but most of all, it was the lack of effort, heart, talent. I'm trying to find a post from the playoffs that year where i said id rather be a lotto team that plays hard then watch this.... and its true. watching this team with a bunch of young guys and jags busting their tails every night and caring about winning is alot easier to watch then Deron and Lopez loaf around while they get smacked by some time who out efforts them with way less talent.

We saw what happens when you tank (70 loss season) it doesnt really work unless you get lucky and this franchise is NOT lucky.

We tried to buy a team and turn it around quick by overpaying for guys. and that doesnt work. we didnt get far and no one cared as long as they could cash their checks.

this team needed a MAJOR ground up overhaul starting with attitude and culture. which is why so far this season to me is an enormous success and one i dont measure by record. if we dont win again this season it wont matter to me as long as guys play hard and continue to develop.

Yeah, I've had more fun watching these guys play this year win or lose in most of these games because they're all for a lack of a better set of words: a bunch of try hards. The games are fun to watch and I leave most games thinking "man, if we just had one or two more talented guys we would have definitely beat them". That's far cry from 2012 where we had a ton of talent but a bunch of guys playing whoopty damn doo basketball. Friday night mail in games were the norms, a bunch of overpaid mercenaries sleep walking in games versus scrub teams and then getting completely blown off of the floor on national tv contests versus the heavy hitters/ Or how about in the 2013-14 season where the team routinely tanked games, or Deron just not even bother to show up.

While I don't like losing, at least I'm enjoying watching these guys play, watching guys add new parts to their games, seeing kids with a great set of attitudes learn, compete and improve, seeing a GM come in here and try to conduct this franchise like there's a damn adult in the room, seeing a coach who consistently gets his guys, who are very limited overall talent wise, to play nearly every game like its a playoff game, etc...so to see commentary poo poo'ing what we're doing, it can be taken the wrong way. I can and will try to do a better job of being empathetic to the fact that the newfans don't realize why some or most of us here are taking this all in stride instead of trashing everyone because our record blow, but having a sense of differing perspectives can go both ways.

I like the passion of this team, the management, and I like the passion of these posts. I think there were a few Lin fans (or possibly trolls) who went a bit overboard earlier in the season, but things have really died down since then, and I see most if not all remaining Lin fans making rational, reasonable posts. I think the recent assessments of Whitehead from the Lin fans (who are also now Nets fans, by the way) are pretty accurate, and if there is a slight inaccuracy, they can be corrected by responding without such anger and assumptions that there is a hidden Lin agenda. Not everyone can post incredibly accurate and thoughtful, well-rounded posts like Spaceballer, and that goes for new Lin/Nets fans and old Nets fans as well. If we can all remember that we have the same goal in mind--success of the Nets (and thereby success of everyone affiliated with the Nets, whether that be Lin, RHJ, Whitehead, Atkinson, Marks, or whomever), then I think we can have good discussions and debates going back and forth where we correct each other and offer different opinions without anger or suspicion, at least until a troll pops up again.

Fair enough, I agree with you, but posts that imply that Whitehead hasn't earned his PT because Lin got hurt do very little to promote positive discourse because that is blatant dishonesty and unnecessary vindictiveness to a player...when I see Nets players getting trashed like that on the account of one player, or seeing fans say that guys need to get yanked because they are wasting one player's minutes, that stuff is not doing anyone any favors on here, please try to see it both ways. On my end, I will work on not responding to things out of anger/defensiveness to this team's players.

[MrDollarBills]

Pretty solid analysis. Here's my take:

I think the disconnect is that Lin fans are rooting for the Nets to win now and not so much win in the future when lin may or may not be here. I think a majority (not all) are upset the nets arent better because it doesnt make Lin look as good as if the nets were winning more.

Speaking only for myself, I think the disconnect is that "some" Lin fans think the Nets have the talent right now to compete (i.e., win 30-40 games) when Lin is here AND also prepare to win in the future when Lin may or may not be here. It's a slight difference in nuance. For example, RHJ and Levert have talent, and I wish they would get more playing time. You can play them more, which I think would help win now AND prepare these talents for winning in the future. We are upset that the Nets aren't better because clearly it means Lin isn't helping but ALSO because we thought the Nets were more talented.

I think all nets fans want the nets to win every night, and cheer for us to do so. but when we dont (which is expected) long time nets fans dont mind because they see the plan and see how winning isnt a part of that plan right now. Where as alot of Lin fans dont think that way... at least from what I gather from whats posted in game threads..

We are angry when the Nets lose due to mistakes or coaching blunders. You can still win games and not undermine development.

"Bench RHJ, he is wasting Lins minutes on the court he cant hit a shot"

Certainly dont help.

Yeah, I cringe at quotes like these.

That's why we tried to warn people about the high optimism when there were posts about 40 wins and so on...the team just doesn't have enough good veteran talent and the kids are too inexperienced for that to happen. I think i predicted 24 wins.

I want RHJ and LeVert to play more, and they will, but in that same token, they're both young and young guys are prone to making errors. if people are willing to accept that instead of trashing them when they commit turnovers or goof on a play, especially when Lin is on the floor with them, then by all means...

[NyCeEvO]

If die hard Net fans look at their players through rose colored glasses, what about those Lin only fans (like youself)? As a Lin fan I cringe every time one of you say Lin is better than Harden or Lin should start over Kemba or LIn's a victim of (insert excuse). First thought reading your post about Whitehead was 'why is this person so against WH?' It's as if you see him as a threat to Lin. You can't build Lin up by tearing everyone else down. And why do you say Whitehead didn't earn his spot? Maybe he destroys Lin in practice like Beverly did in Houston. Maybe the coaches see something in this kid that you don't. The improvements he has made in the 30 something games is impressive.
My "genuine" assessment as a Lin fan is that both Whitehead and RHJ's ceilings are higher than Lin. Lin has already peaked. He is a borderline starter and there's no shame in that. He has exceeded expectations. But now he has become injury prone and it will negate the one small advantage he has had, quick first step. It's clear now that his handles, shooting will stay below average. No sign he'll ever stop making dumb turnovers or fire up bricks during crunch time. But his defense has improved so LOFs can hang their hat on that.

I can't imagine that you are really a Lin fan who knows basketball well if you think that both Whitehead and RHJ have higher ceilings than Lin. Compare Lin's first few NBA starts to Whitehead's first few NBA starts. And if you say that Whitehead was only a PG in college, well Lin was not a PG in college at all--he played SG all four years.

Lin also tested as being quicker than everyone (John Wall-speed) at the combines, so he has much more than just a quick first step.

I could go on and on, but I will stop here.

This is a game thread about the Nets and Utah Jazz. This isn't the player comparison thread about Jeremy Lin vs Isiah Whitehead. Let's stay on topic.

If people disagree about who has the higher ceiling, that's ok. It's called an opinion. If you can't handle your opinion being challenged, you're going to have a hard time on forums. This is a community of people who share different opinions.

Saying that someone isn't a true fan because they do not come to the same conclusions as you is over the top. We're here to learn and discuss, not talk down to or make fun of others.

Both sides of this "Lin vs. [insert a player]" discourse is getting tired and old. There are ways to talk about players in non-confrontational ways. Please find another way to contribute positively or don't talk about it at all.

-NyCe

[Paradise]

Whitehead has upped his field goal percentage to 41% which so far has eclipsed his college numbers. He's a freshman so to "old time fans" it will look like an agenda. You can definitely criticize the kid but he's not a finished product in 26 games of his first professional career.

Not a single rookie except Embiid is lighting the world on fire. Dunn and Whitehead have been about the same efficiency wise. Whitehead outplayed him in their head to head match up.

He's shown more on the floor against good teams than half of his own draft class. Bender, Beasley, Baldwin, etc. Nowhere to be found. I doubt their fans are calling them marginal based off their struggling rookie season.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[hood30]

This is an important point... while I get/appreciate the new fans here watch all the games, and even bough LP to do so (i have to as well living in boston) you dont know what things have been like for this franchise the past decade.

This team lost seventy (70) games! and what is worse, that season was easier to sit through then the year we won 49 games. That year 1 brooklyn team was one of, if not the hardest season to endure as a nets fan. the PR staff pushed these guys. the players did not give a crap. our record was fools gold since our record vs .500+ teams was awful, we just beat all the bad teams. The team was super soft and got exposed really quick.

but most of all, it was the lack of effort, heart, talent. I'm trying to find a post from the playoffs that year where i said id rather be a lotto team that plays hard then watch this.... and its true. watching this team with a bunch of young guys and jags busting their tails every night and caring about winning is alot easier to watch then Deron and Lopez loaf around while they get smacked by some time who out efforts them with way less talent.

We saw what happens when you tank (70 loss season) it doesnt really work unless you get lucky and this franchise is NOT lucky.

We tried to buy a team and turn it around quick by overpaying for guys. and that doesnt work. we didnt get far and no one cared as long as they could cash their checks.

this team needed a MAJOR ground up overhaul starting with attitude and culture. which is why so far this season to me is an enormous success and one i dont measure by record. if we dont win again this season it wont matter to me as long as guys play hard and continue to develop.

Yeah, I've had more fun watching these guys play this year win or lose in most of these games because they're all for a lack of a better set of words: a bunch of try hards. The games are fun to watch and I leave most games thinking "man, if we just had one or two more talented guys we would have definitely beat them". That's far cry from 2012 where we had a ton of talent but a bunch of guys playing whoopty damn doo basketball. Friday night mail in games were the norms, a bunch of overpaid mercenaries sleep walking in games versus scrub teams and then getting completely blown off of the floor on national tv contests versus the heavy hitters/ Or how about in the 2013-14 season where the team routinely tanked games, or Deron just not even bother to show up.

While I don't like losing, at least I'm enjoying watching these guys play, watching guys add new parts to their games, seeing kids with a great set of attitudes learn, compete and improve, seeing a GM come in here and try to conduct this franchise like there's a damn adult in the room, seeing a coach who consistently gets his guys, who are very limited overall talent wise, to play nearly every game like its a playoff game, etc...so to see commentary poo poo'ing what we're doing, it can be taken the wrong way. I can and will try to do a better job of being empathetic to the fact that the newfans don't realize why some or most of us here are taking this all in stride instead of trashing everyone because our record blow, but having a sense of differing perspectives can go both ways.

I like the passion of this team, the management, and I like the passion of these posts. I think there were a few Lin fans (or possibly trolls) who went a bit overboard earlier in the season, but things have really died down since then, and I see most if not all remaining Lin fans making rational, reasonable posts. I think the recent assessments of Whitehead from the Lin fans (who are also now Nets fans, by the way) are pretty accurate, and if there is a slight inaccuracy, they can be corrected by responding without such anger and assumptions that there is a hidden Lin agenda. Not everyone can post incredibly accurate and thoughtful, well-rounded posts like Spaceballer, and that goes for new Lin/Nets fans and old Nets fans as well. If we can all remember that we have the same goal in mind--success of the Nets (and thereby success of everyone affiliated with the Nets, whether that be Lin, RHJ, Whitehead, Atkinson, Marks, or whomever), then I think we can have good discussions and debates going back and forth where we correct each other and offer different opinions without anger or suspicion, at least until a troll pops up again.

His post was really weird so there's no need to respond....RHJ ceiling is low because it's unlikely he'll even be able to be a "decent" outside shooter...and the NBA is increasingly valuing court spacing and wings who can shoot....RHJ is also handicapped by his bad shooting form mechanics which are really the biggest reason I'm almost sure he has no potential as a shooter.

On top of that, RHJ has an awakward style of basketball..lacks composure and it looks like he's pressing everything..Maybe that could be fixed and he could be more composed, but a wing who can't shoot is a bad sign for a young prospect.

Whitehead, on his side, is not a point guard and you could pretty much see it if you've been watching him since the Summer league games..and yes, I've watched all of these games that were on NBA TV, so I have seen where he's started and could gauge how much improvement he's made since than.....

Point-Guard instinct is probably harder to develop than shooting ability..It's either you have it or you don't....As a shooter, Whitehead does have better potential than RHJ since his shooting form and mechanics are better than RHJ, so there's hope for him, but so far, he's looked very poor as an outside shooter..Maybe that'll change, we'll see, but remember, he needs to show it soon because the NBA is a cut-throat business and next year, he'll have to compete with a new batch of draftees...So time is of the essence.


Those are my fair assessment...I have no agenda...I have pretty much watched every single games and even the summer league games in which Whitehead and RHJ took part..I haven't seen enough improvement that leads me to believe Whitehead is now a NBA rotational player and I'm still not that high on RHJ potential since he's not improved his shooting and composure on the ball.

[bws94]

I understand as as die hard Nets fan, your assessment about your own rookie will always be rosier than an outsider looking in from the outside.....I've seen this again and again, so I'm not surprised by your rant..The facts are that Whitehead hasn't done enough to warrant even a back-up NBA PG spot on any NBA team, unless winning is at the bottom of your priority...I couldn't care less about his age or whether he was a second round draft pick when it's time to assess a player that will be competing against next year class of draftees entering the league

Even if you don't care about winning and only wants to develop, there's always a chance you could find someone in next year draft or in the D-league that has better potential than Whitehead...or maybe Dinnwiddie could show much more once we gets a better stretch of minutes to assess.

In the NBA, dozens of young players gets drafted every year, so when you get your big shot, you better make the best out of it since many are waiting on the wing to take your spot...I'm simply telling you that Whitehead could easily be out of the league once the new crop of young guys arrives next year and it really doesn't matter whether he's 21 and just getting started when it's time to decide whether he's worth further development on an NBA roster.

Whitehead stats as a starter are far from average and while he's improved his shooting a bit, that's only because they were so bad that the only way was up....I also own similar opinion about RHJ who is a low-ceiling young player..If my assessment makes you angry, so be it...I'm not stating these to annoy you..I'm just giving you a genuine assessment about Whitehead and RHJ.

If die hard Net fans look at their players through rose colored glasses, what about those Lin only fans (like youself)? As a Lin fan I cringe every time one of you say Lin is better than Harden or Lin should start over Kemba or LIn's a victim of (insert excuse). First thought reading your post about Whitehead was 'why is this person so against WH?' It's as if you see him as a threat to Lin. You can't build Lin up by tearing everyone else down. And why do you say Whitehead didn't earn his spot? Maybe he destroys Lin in practice like Beverly did in Houston. Maybe the coaches see something in this kid that you don't. The improvements he has made in the 30 something games is impressive.
My "genuine" assessment as a Lin fan is that both Whitehead and RHJ's ceilings are higher than Lin. Lin has already peaked. He is a borderline starter and there's no shame in that. He has exceeded expectations. But now he has become injury prone and it will negate the one small advantage he has had, quick first step. It's now clear that his handles, shooting will stay below average. No sign he'll ever stop making dumb turnovers or fire up bricks during crunch time. But his defense has improved so LOFs can hang their hat on that.

I don't really agree with all of what you wrote. I think the sensitivity and respect for posting to a team's forum is not always taken into account by some Lin fans. We are guests here, the POV of the board is how Lin can help their team, not Lin's personal stats and career, and that's how it is. Just focussing on Lin or putting other players down to pump Lin up, intentionally or unintentionally, is not a good idea. A better idea is look at the whole team, who works well with whom on the team, knowing that the system is the system, and if you're a Lin fan, how he can best exploit his talent within the team's framework. But posting-wise, there should be some interest in the future of the team. I was never a Hornets fan and became one by watching them, now I follow them even though Lin left and root for them.

I think Lin is still improving. Yes, his handles aren't the greatest, but he does really good things in crunch time on both ends of the floor. His decision-making is improving, his pacing of the game and playing under control is improving, not everything about one's game is athletic based. I think he needs to work more on his in-between game, one-on-one moves, go-to moves when he can't get to the rim, but he's a solid starter IMO. RHJ is a different type of player, and while I like Whitehead and think he looks really poised for a rookie, I'm not ready to say he has a higher ceiling than Lin yet. But I'm not really interested in comparing the two. He's Lin's teammate, he's a great kid from what I see, he'll learn from Lin and other veteran PGs and we know that he asks PGs a lot of questions during games, and the best to him for the Nets and just as a good kid who is very young in his NBA career.

[Elmhurst NY]

I don't really agree with all of what you wrote. I think the sensitivity and respect for posting to a team's forum is not always taken into account by some Lin fans. We are guests here, the POV of the board is how Lin can help their team, not Lin's personal stats and career, and that's how it is. Just focussing on Lin or putting other players down to pump Lin up, intentionally or unintentionally, is not a good idea. A better idea is look at the whole team, who works well with whom on the team, knowing that the system is the system, and if you're a Lin fan, how he can best exploit his talent within the team's framework. But posting-wise, there should be some interest in the future of the team. I was never a Hornets fan and became one by watching them, now I follow them even though Lin left and root for them.

I think Lin is still improving. Yes, his handles aren't the greatest, but he does really good things in crunch time on both ends of the floor. His decision-making is improving, his pacing of the game and playing under control is improving, not everything about one's game is athletic based. I think he needs to work more on his in-between game, one-on-one moves, go-to moves when he can't get to the rim, but he's a solid starter IMO. RHJ is a different type of player, and while I like Whitehead and think he looks really poised for a rookie, I'm not ready to say he has a higher ceiling than Lin yet. But I'm not really interested in comparing the two. He's Lin's teammate, he's a great kid from what I see, he'll learn from Lin and other veteran PGs and we know that he asks PGs a lot of questions during games, and the best to him for the Nets and just as a good kid who is very young in his NBA career.

I agree witheverthing you've wrote and disagree with some of the things I've wrote too.
I get overly critical of Lin sometimes to offset the crazies of the Linwagon jumpers. He's a great guy that can still improve his game.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't think Lin's ball handling is poor at all. Jump shooting, rim attacks imo all solid, the guy is a damn good player and he COMPETES. That's what will get me on the side of any player regardless of talent level, how hard he competes. If I had to be critical, I don't think he's really that great of a passer. A very willing one, but I'd like to see him give us some nights where he's getting more than 5-6 assists. Of course, that could improve if we can hopefully land 2 legit starters in the offseason to boost the team up. Hard to get assists when we have only Lopez, Booker, and a bunch of kids.

Frankly, he just has to get healthy. That's been what's been holding him back. His own court play has been excellent and we're waaaaay better with him than without him. I don't mind if he has a game or so where he may cough the ball up a bit more than you'd like because he'll make up for it on the defensive end.

I think he's more than shown that he is a capable starting PG, i think above average in fact since he's a two way player. Its just health thats screwing him right now.

Lin is the last of my concerns really. Just get healthy for that 2nd half of the season push so we can finish the season in a positive manner.

[bws94]

DollarBills, is there really a Nets PG curse? If so, then Lin is just the latest casualty.