Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[JordansBulls]

25 points a game, 7 boards, 5 assists ... wills the team to victories, plays elite defense, multiple All-Star appearances. Oh, he's a super star all right.

This what more do you want from him? Imagine had the Rockets traded Harden last year or Thunder Westbrook. Even with Anthony Davis in place of Jimmy we wouldn't be in any better position right now.

[RedBulls23]

Motivation is that the team has turned down a dead end street no outlet.

Exactly. The people that criticize the so-called tanking method constantly fail to demonstrate how the Bulls can become a contender simply going down the path they are on now.

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

[FNQ]

Ric Bucher is a known fabricator. I'm sure its been said, but just piling on. He made up stuff about the Warriors when he was only local constantly. The definition of a writer who flings crap at the wall and hope it sticks.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

When comparing previous star players trades I haven't seen anyone mention that teams were dealing from a position of weakness due to most guys being disgruntled employees.

Jimmy so far hasn't been a problem as far as forcing his way out.

Or has he?

[TheStig]

That's a pretty slanted portrait of those deals. Chandler became DPOY six years after the Bulls dealt him.

Wallace, who you call "past prime," was the reigning DPOY the very year the Bulls signed him.

I get that you might not do those deals in retrospect, but GMs don't have time machines.

I'm not sure what time machine that you need to project that a 24 year old is going to have a brighter trajectory than a 32 year old. There was a reason a Piston's team that won 64 games and went to the ECF didn't want him back.

And they could have afforded to keep them both!

Good, let's call the Cavs and have them trade us LeBron for Bobby Portis, given their respective trajectories.

In any event, I wasn't trying to defend the deals, just noting that the framing was a little bit silly in terms of decontextualizing them to make them seem worse.

Wallace was better at the time. No doubt. But it was not hard to see that the 24 year old Chandler would be better in a year or two than 32 year old Wallace. Chandler was somewhat similar. And you ignored the fact that PJ Brown made very similar money. So they could have kept both.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

I'm not sure what time machine that you need to project that a 24 year old is going to have a brighter trajectory than a 32 year old. There was a reason a Piston's team that won 64 games and went to the ECF didn't want him back.

And they could have afforded to keep them both!

Good, let's call the Cavs and have them trade us LeBron for Bobby Portis, given their respective trajectories.

In any event, I wasn't trying to defend the deals, just noting that the framing was a little bit silly in terms of decontextualizing them to make them seem worse.

Wallace was better at the time. No doubt. But it was not hard to see that the 24 year old Chandler would be better in a year or two than 32 year old Wallace. Chandler was somewhat similar. And you ignored the fact that PJ Brown made very similar money. So they could have kept both.

Even Stevie Wonder could see that Wallace over Tyson was horrible.

[DaBulls82]

Hey Ric:

[Ice Man]

Jimmy so far hasn't been a problem as far as forcing his way out.

Or has he?

Never heard a whiff of a hint, and he's not usually shy about sharing his feelings.

[Mech Engineer]

Motivation is that the team has turned down a dead end street no outlet.

Exactly. The people that criticize the so-called tanking method constantly fail to demonstrate how the Bulls can become a contender simply going down the path they are on now.

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

If someone hates the FO, it is better for them to build around Jimmy. If they do well, at-least you get to enjoy the team. If they do badly, they will get fired.

If they trade Jimmy for picks and tank for the next 5 years....it gives them time to claim they are rebuilding and honestly Reinsdorf can't fire them because there are no expectations for wins. You usually don't fire a FO when you authorize a rebuild especially with Reinsdorf.

[Red Larrivee]

Regarding my last post from a few minutes ago.... let's take this draft for instance... ''

Look at the top 15

Rose
Beasley
Mayo
Westbrook
Love
Gallinari
E. Gordon
J. Alexander
Augustin
B. Lopez
J Bayless
J Thompson
B Rush
A Randolph
R Lopez

One franchise changing player still playing. Rose was too but was cut short before his prime. A lot of busts... a lot of huge disappointments..

Most people don't want to hear it. When you buy lottery tickets every day, nobody wants to hear that they're wasting their money. They want to hear that they're going to strike gold.

The 2007 NCAA Freshmen class may be the most hyped class in the past 16 years: Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, O.J. Mayo, Kevin Love, Eric Gordon, Brook Lopez, Jerryd Bayless, DeAndre Jordan, Anthony Randolph, Kosta Koufos, J.J. Hickson, Donte Greene, Bill Walker, Kyle Singler.

And that's WITHOUT the players who didn't declare for the 2008 Draft: Blake Griffin, James Harden, Chandler Parsons, Austin Daye, Jonny Flynn, Patrick Patterson.

Seriously, only the 2003 NBA Draft compares to the hype that 2008 brought. The Wiggins/Parker class came close, but that class has been a major disappointment so far.

And only 4 players in the 2008 lottery made an all-star game:

Rose (3)
Love (3)
Westbrook (5)
B. Lopez (1)

2 players who were franchise changing talents: Rose and Westbrook. Not Michael Beasley, who had one of the greatest freshman seasons ever, and not O.J. Mayo who was hyped as the next Kobe Bryant since 9th grade.

So, I always get a good laugh when people swear up and down that 5 superstars are going to get drafted in the lottery. I don't doubt that 2017 can be a good draft, but I think people need to scroll through previous drafts and get a reminder of just how big a crapshoot everything is.

[jnrjr79]

I'm not sure what time machine that you need to project that a 24 year old is going to have a brighter trajectory than a 32 year old. There was a reason a Piston's team that won 64 games and went to the ECF didn't want him back.

And they could have afforded to keep them both!

Good, let's call the Cavs and have them trade us LeBron for Bobby Portis, given their respective trajectories.

In any event, I wasn't trying to defend the deals, just noting that the framing was a little bit silly in terms of decontextualizing them to make them seem worse.

Wallace was better at the time. No doubt. But it was not hard to see that the 24 year old Chandler would be better in a year or two than 32 year old Wallace. Chandler was somewhat similar. And you ignored the fact that PJ Brown made very similar money. So they could have kept both.

For the third time, not defending the deal, just the description of the players that makes it seem more extreme. I'll stop now.

[GetBuLLish]

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

First, I am probably one of the earliest posters here calling for GarPax to be fired (if the not earliest since I've been advocating it for at least three years).

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. I don't trust the FO to do anything, whether it be start a team from scratch or build around Jimmy. The Bulls aren't winning anything with this FO intact. This entire conversation is academic if GarPax remain in charge.

[joef]

Jimmy to the Lakers
Wade to the Clippers


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[RedBulls23]

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

First, I am probably one of the earliest posters here calling for GarPax to be fired (if the not earliest since I've been advocating it for at least three years).

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. I don't trust the FO to do anything, whether it be start a team from scratch or build around Jimmy. The Bulls aren't winning anything with this FO intact. This entire conversation is academic if GarPax remain in charge.

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

[GetBuLLish]

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

Why is advocating a tank mutually exclusive with wanting GarPax fired? I don't understand.

[fleet]

Exactly. The people that criticize the so-called tanking method constantly fail to demonstrate how the Bulls can become a contender simply going down the path they are on now.

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

If someone hates the FO, it is better for them to build around Jimmy. If they do well, at-least you get to enjoy the team. If they do badly, they will get fired.

If they trade Jimmy for picks and tank for the next 5 years....it gives them time to claim they are rebuilding and honestly Reinsdorf can't fire them because there are no expectations for wins. You usually don't fire a FO when you authorize a rebuild especially with Reinsdorf.

Whatever Reinsdorf decides he wants is not known. But they arent building jack cheese around Butler. That much I do know. Its impossible. I'll roll the dice on a total rebuild from scratch. That has better championship odds.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Jimmy so far hasn't been a problem as far as forcing his way out.

Or has he?

Never heard a whiff of a hint, and he's not usually shy about sharing his feelings.

The smart play would be to do it discreetly and privately? I wonder, doesn't really make sense to move him if he hasn't. They could rebuild around him instead.

[Rerisen]

If GarPax are allowed to trade Butler, have to figure they just bought themselves 3 years at least.

If they aren't we don't know how long they have, but they could potentially be out (or one of them) as soon as the summer if the team fails to make the playoffs, while Jerry is expecting them to be competitive.

[TheStig]

Good, let's call the Cavs and have them trade us LeBron for Bobby Portis, given their respective trajectories.

In any event, I wasn't trying to defend the deals, just noting that the framing was a little bit silly in terms of decontextualizing them to make them seem worse.

Wallace was better at the time. No doubt. But it was not hard to see that the 24 year old Chandler would be better in a year or two than 32 year old Wallace. Chandler was somewhat similar. And you ignored the fact that PJ Brown made very similar money. So they could have kept both.

For the third time, not defending the deal, just the description of the players that makes it seem more extreme. I'll stop now.

To be fair, it wasn't even a deal was the point I was making. They had both on the roster at the same time and then dealt Chandler.

Sorry to dwell.

[RedBulls23]

And really only getting rid of Gar/Pax isn't the only solution. You have to also overhaul scouting, both college and international.

They have all run their course.