Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[DaBulls82]

The only way we can rid ourselves of GarPax is to miss the playoffs this our current roster. Even then it would be a stretch.

Do we want to start over with GarPax in charge? Or do we want to continue down this path of being a middle of the road NBA team with GarPax? Neither sound like much fun tbh.

A new GM, with the ability to use any of the roster as chips to build a team, along with their choice of coach would be ideal - and also happens to be the least likely to happen.

[fleet]

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

First, I am probably one of the earliest posters here calling for GarPax to be fired (if the not earliest since I've been advocating it for at least three years).

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. I don't trust the FO to do anything, whether it be start a team from scratch or build around Jimmy. The Bulls aren't winning anything with this FO intact. This entire conversation is academic if GarPax remain in charge.

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

Answer is, nobody can fix this current situation. Nobody. Have to hope for the best with a new direction.

[Leslie Forman]

Don't think any team in the last few years has won the trade after giving up the all star. Jazz did pretty well getting Favors for D Will but that's about it. Magic lost the Howard trade, Denver lost the Melo trade, OKC lost the Harden trade.

Boston sure won that Rondo trade!

[AirP.]

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

First, I am probably one of the earliest posters here calling for GarPax to be fired (if the not earliest since I've been advocating it for at least three years).

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. I don't trust the FO to do anything, whether it be start a team from scratch or build around Jimmy. The Bulls aren't winning anything with this FO intact. This entire conversation is academic if GarPax remain in charge.

Only 3 years? That was just a little longer ago then when the Bulls were trying to trade Thibs. I think there were people calling for their heads a few years before that, somewhere between refusing to trade for a SG and the FO siding with Rose on coming back on his own timetable instead of what the medical staff advocated.

[Mech Engineer]

I'm questioning why anyone wants this current FO to go down any path.

If you hate Gar/Pax and think they have and are doing a terrible job, why trust their judgment on trading Jimmy for false hopes and dreams?

If someone hates the FO, it is better for them to build around Jimmy. If they do well, at-least you get to enjoy the team. If they do badly, they will get fired.

If they trade Jimmy for picks and tank for the next 5 years....it gives them time to claim they are rebuilding and honestly Reinsdorf can't fire them because there are no expectations for wins. You usually don't fire a FO when you authorize a rebuild especially with Reinsdorf.

Whatever Reinsdorf decides he wants is not known. But they arent building jack cheese around Butler. That much I do know. Its impossible. I'll roll the dice on a total rebuild from scratch. That has better championship odds.

That means you trust GarPax have the ability to make great picks in the next 4/5 drafts and build a championship team. Or, you believe a robot in that GMs seat will succeed in building a championship team if they get top picks in the next half-decade.

Remember the Krause tanking era was not by design except for the first year maybe. They tried to sign free agents like McGrady, Eddie Jones and then tanked because they were incompetent.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Me personally I feel like Gar is the slime-ball that can't be trusted or respected or liked. I wonder how responsible he is for the mess we're in.

I might be ok with him getting the boot and putting it in Pax's hands which might be the outcome considering the Jerry-Job-Security-Factor.

[RedBulls23]

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

Why is advocating a tank mutually exclusive with wanting GarPax fired? I don't understand.

The point is advocating for a tank with Gar/Pax pulling the trigger gets this org no where.

If anything, it just buys them more time.

[fleet]

If GarPax are allowed to trade Butler, have to figure they just bought themselves 3 years at least.

If they aren't we don't know how long they have, but they could potentially be out (or one of them) as soon as the summer if the team fails to make the playoffs, while Jerry is expecting them to be competitive.

I don't think they buy anything. If Reinsdorf wants to fire them, he will. Or not. What he probably wants is to keep treadmilling. Maybe trading Butler will piss him off.

All depends on what the Bulls get, NBA players, or prospects. He can keep the treadmill going with a talent trade.

[Dominator83]

This is also the same organization who signed a past prime Ben Wallce to a huge deal and then dealt a prime Tyson Chandler on a much smaller deal for an old broken down PJ Brown and Jr Smith, who they flipped for a 2nd rounder.

So a DPOY and 3 time all defensive player for a old rental and a 2nd.

It's a crap shoot.

That's a pretty slanted portrait of those deals. Chandler became DPOY six years after the Bulls dealt him.

Wallace, who you call "past prime," was the reigning DPOY the very year the Bulls signed him.

I get that you might not do those deals in retrospect, but GMs don't have time machines.

I'm not sure what time machine that you need to project that a 24 year old is going to have a brighter trajectory than a 32 year old. There was a reason a Piston's team that won 64 games and went to the ECF didn't want him back.

And they could have afforded to keep them both!

Yea not much hindsight needed on that one. In fact I remember I started a thread (im sure its still in the archives somewhere!) after that move questioning the logic behind taking Tyrus over Aldridge and dumping Tyson to sign Wallace.

My points were the obvious age difference, but most importantly the fact that Wallace's rebound and block #'s had declined each of the past 3 years PRIOR to signing him. Tyson was coming off a bad season no doubt, but I thought he actually had a solid series against the Heat (he kept finding ways to get Shaq into foul trouble)

Also our biggest hole going into that off season was scoring in the post. Neither Wallace/Tyrus or Tyson was going to help that, but Aldridge would have.

So if a poster on RealGM that couldn't even spell his username right knew these moves were bad, how does Gar/pax, who does this for a living, not see it??

[stl705]

Regardless of whether we "believe" Ric Bucher or not, this is not the first time there has been Jimmy trade rumors which scares the absolute hell out of me. Right now, a move makes zero sense. Unless the Bulls are confident they are getting 2x top 5-6 picks, I don't see why or how they could trade Butler before the lottery as another posted mentioned. Could be Jerry putting it out to feel out the fan base if Butler does get traded after the season.

I'm vehemently against trading Butler. No guarantee we get another player as good as him for the next 20 years. I don't care how many top 5 picks we get. Didn't help us after MJ left.

[RedBulls23]

First, I am probably one of the earliest posters here calling for GarPax to be fired (if the not earliest since I've been advocating it for at least three years).

Second, your point is a non-sequitur. I don't trust the FO to do anything, whether it be start a team from scratch or build around Jimmy. The Bulls aren't winning anything with this FO intact. This entire conversation is academic if GarPax remain in charge.

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

Answer is, nobody can fix this current situation. Nobody. Have to hope for the best with a new direction.

I disagree. Imo, you get someone from the Spurs or Warriors org, and let them decide which path is best.

Simply letting gar or pax roll the dice again isn't going to make a difference. They will just keep digging a hole or we will more likely be back to being the Skiles era Bulls, without a player even remotely as good as Jimmy.

[GetBuLLish]

The point is advocating for a tank with Gar/Pax pulling the trigger gets this org no where.

If anything, it just buys them more time.

That's just conjecture. I could just as easily theorize that if the Bulls went nuclear this year, that might finally convince Jerry to go full bore and completely clear house. I could also theorize that by allowing this team to remain first-round exit fodder, that might allow GarPax to remain in charge in perpetuity.

Truth is, we don't know. We're just making things harder by not only trying to build a good team but also in such a way that gets GarPax fired. Says a lot about the type of ownership we are dealing with.

[rtblues]

My sources tell me Ric Butcher is an idiot who's never been right or had a scoop ever.

[fleet]

If someone hates the FO, it is better for them to build around Jimmy. If they do well, at-least you get to enjoy the team. If they do badly, they will get fired.

If they trade Jimmy for picks and tank for the next 5 years....it gives them time to claim they are rebuilding and honestly Reinsdorf can't fire them because there are no expectations for wins. You usually don't fire a FO when you authorize a rebuild especially with Reinsdorf.

Whatever Reinsdorf decides he wants is not known. But they arent building jack cheese around Butler. That much I do know. Its impossible. I'll roll the dice on a total rebuild from scratch. That has better championship odds.

That means you trust GarPax have the ability to make great picks in the next 4/5 drafts and build a championship team. Or, you believe a robot in that GMs seat will succeed in building a championship team if they get top picks in the next half-decade.

Remember the Krause tanking era was not by design except for the first year maybe. They tried to sign free agents like McGrady, Eddie Jones and then tanked because they were incompetent.

I didnt say anything about trusting them. I dont trust them. I accept the burden that Ownership has placed on my fandom and work from there.

[nitetrain8603]

I would actually talk it out with Wade and Butler to be honest if the Bulls are really thinking about this. Because half of the return from those players (especially Wade) is that Chicago is a place you can trust. Ask both what they want to do, have plans layed out and then go from there.

[RedBulls23]

Me personally I feel like Gar is the slime-ball that can't be trusted or respected or liked. I wonder how responsible he is for the mess we're in.

I might be ok with him getting the boot and putting it in Pax's hands which might be the outcome considering the Jerry-Job-Security-Factor.

I love pax for what he did during his playing days with the team, and thank him for dragging the team out of the post dynasty mess they were in, but (but if he's truly been hands off) his negligence has been as much of an issue in allowing Gar to run this franchise and roster into the ground.

[fleet]

Except my 2nd point does, because you're seeing many posters here who have wanted Gar and Pax fired advocating trading Jimmy to go for the tank.

Answer is, nobody can fix this current situation. Nobody. Have to hope for the best with a new direction.

I disagree. Imo, you get someone from the Spurs or Warriors org, and let them decide which path is best.

Simply letting gar or pax roll the dice again isn't going to make a difference. They will just keep digging a hole or we will more likely be back to being the Skiles era Bulls, without a player even remotely as good as Jimmy.

All I have to work with is GarPax.
And so I will.

[Mech Engineer]

If GarPax are allowed to trade Butler, have to figure they just bought themselves 3 years at least.

If they aren't we don't know how long they have, but they could potentially be out (or one of them) as soon as the summer if the team fails to make the playoffs, while Jerry is expecting them to be competitive.

I don't think they buy anything. If Reinsdorf wants to fire them, he will. Or not. What he probably wants is to keep treadmilling. Maybe trading Butler will piss him off.

All depends on what the Bulls get, NBA players, or prospects. He can keep the treadmill going with a talent trade.

As much as I think GarPax are incompetent or Jerry is looking at seat-filling, I doubt even they are so selfish to trade Jimmy for a mediocre set of NBA players to get a treadmill going. If they trade Jimmy, they are getting the best sure-fire picks possible and a semi-proven young player back plus obviously salary fillers. They are not going to do a Crowder, Bradley and a pick type deal.

Or, in the best case, they are getting a Cousins back for Jimmy.

[the ultimates]

Motivation is that the team has turned down a dead end street no outlet.

Exactly. The people that criticize the so-called tanking method constantly fail to demonstrate how the Bulls can become a contender simply going down the path they are on now.

The plan was to be competitive and make the playoffs, possibly get to the second round and look more enticing to a high level free agent. People will say that will never work but I find it better than trading Butler for the trash offers that were on the table.

[Red Larrivee]

That means you trust GarPax have the ability to make great picks in the next 4/5 drafts and build a championship team. Or, you believe a robot in that GMs seat will succeed in building a championship team if they get top picks in the next half-decade.

Remember the Krause tanking era was not by design except for the first year maybe. They tried to sign free agents like McGrady, Eddie Jones and then tanked because they were incompetent.

Which is why you pigeon hole yourself when you rebuild. If the rebuild fails, then what? It's not like you can just trade all your pieces for superstars and become good again. You're more likely to do something desperate like trade for Jalen Rose. Orlando is going through the same thing. Their draft picks are not as good as they thought they would be and ownership is tired of watching a perennial loser. To move the needle, they trade Victor Oladipo and a first for Serge Ibaka. Yet, they're still in the same place as before.