2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread

[SelfishPlayer]

This is a lead guard/combo guard/PG heavy draft and I believe that all of the top guys will be legit NBA players much like the 1999 draft. Fox, and Smith are the most easiest to project because their games are normal. Ball, Fultz, and Monk are quirky.

[Unbreakable99]

It's really surprising to me that many people see Markel Fultz as the no-doubt #1 pick in the draft. I like his skill level, but he is not impressive physically at all.

I agree. Don't get me wrong. If we drafted him I would be very happy. I just don't see him a tier above the rest. He's on the same plain as the other top prospect. If we got the number one pick as of today I'm not sure which way I would go. I think I would lean Fultz as of today but why not jackson especially if the Lakers pick conveys. If we get fortunate enough to get two top 10 picks there are about 4 PGs who are close. Fultz Ball DSJ Fox. Maybe go jackson then get whichever PG is remaining. I don't know. All I know I'd here is no clear cut number one at this time.

Yeah. This is the 2nd time I saw Fultz play against a quality opponent, and both times he didn't look good. It's not about his team getting blown out either. With players that are consensus top 1-3 picks, they usually look special and move a different way than the other players on the court. That's regardless of the teammates and score of the game. I don't see that with Fultz. He doesn't stand out from his competition. I know it sounds like I'm just being a contrarian, but I've seen at least 5 guys that look like they are better than Fultz (including Ball, Jackson, Dennis Smith and Monk). And even those guys have major question marks in their games.

Yup. I'm just not wowed by Fultz. Special players wow me. Kyrie wowed me in his limited playing time as a freshman. Towns wowed me. Embiid wowed me. Simmons wowed me. Fultz just makes me say ok he's good but no wow as of yet. There are so many fans I see on twitter and the libery ballers writers who act like Fultz is the second coming and if we don't get him then itmwill suck. I just don't see why they think that. It's not him and then everyone else. It's him along with about 5 other players on the same level. Nothing to be sad about should we not draft him. Sixers Twitter will riot if we have the top pick and pass on Fultz lol.

[Slizeezyc]

I really don't understand the intense desire for a 2-way PG. Only 13 PGs in the NBA have a positive DRPM. Only about 3 of them are actual difference makers defensively. It's a run and gun league. I want a PG who will take full advantage of the current rules and become an offensive juggernaut. Simmons as a facilitator will make that player even more effective. I don't want a 15 ppg pass first PG who only shoots open 3s.

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I personally like players that are willing and capable defenders....Crazy I know.
In Lonzo Balls case, I see a great defender who can easily guard three positions on the floor. You can match him up with opposing teams shooting guards and probably some small forwards. Having a guard capable of locking down the opposing teams best offensive player is a big deal in my opinion. I think Ball can be a great defensive player in the NBA. That's part of the reason he impresses me personally. I get what you're saying though. It's not vital that point guards specifically be great defenders, but still.....What a luxury it would be.

Why are you being so hostile about Lonzo Ball's defensive capabilities when he didn't even try on defense until he got to UCLA. And you're also acting like he's some special PG defender right now, which he's not. Seems weird to be so combative about it.

[Slizeezyc]

I think that Dennis Smith can be for Simmons, what Irving is for Lebron. A play maker on the perimeter, and secondary ball handler who can get his own shot.

I'd prefer not to have another iffy shooter around Simmons. If he shot like Kyrie, he would be insta-first pick though so I get it.

[Ericb5]

I really don't understand the intense desire for a 2-way PG. Only 13 PGs in the NBA have a positive DRPM. Only about 3 of them are actual difference makers defensively. It's a run and gun league. I want a PG who will take full advantage of the current rules and become an offensive juggernaut. Simmons as a facilitator will make that player even more effective. I don't want a 15 ppg pass first PG who only shoots open 3s.

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I personally like players that are willing and capable defenders....Crazy I know.
In Lonzo Balls case, I see a great defender who can easily guard three positions on the floor. You can match him up with opposing teams shooting guards and probably some small forwards. Having a guard capable of locking down the opposing teams best offensive player is a big deal in my opinion. I think Ball can be a great defensive player in the NBA. That's part of the reason he impresses me personally. I get what you're saying though. It's not vital that point guards specifically be great defenders, but still.....What a luxury it would be.

I agree.

The fact that Ball could defend both back court positions means that you could pair him with Smith or Monk and he could guard the 2.

I think that Fultz probably could too, but I just have a gut feeling that Ball is going to be the better player. He seems to have more of a natural gift than Fultz does, and Fultz seems to be the more skilled player.

You can never become more gifted, but you can become more skilled. This is the main reason why I like Simmons so much. He is just incredibly gifted. His vision and passing are beyond what can be taught, and I get the same feeling about Ball.

Still, I think they are both studs, and my ranking could easily change between now and the draft. I currently like Jackson at number 1 anyway.

The question for me right now is, will Smith catch Tatum for number 4 in my mind?


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[Slizeezyc]

It's really surprising to me that many people see Markel Fultz as the no-doubt #1 pick in the draft. I like his skill level, but he is not impressive physically at all.

I agree. Don't get me wrong. If we drafted him I would be very happy. I just don't see him a tier above the rest. He's on the same plain as the other top prospect. If we got the number one pick as of today I'm not sure which way I would go. I think I would lean Fultz as of today but why not jackson especially if the Lakers pick conveys. If we get fortunate enough to get two top 10 picks there are about 4 PGs who are close. Fultz Ball DSJ Fox. Maybe go jackson then get whichever PG is remaining. I don't know. All I know I'd here is no clear cut number one at this time.

Yeah. This is the 2nd time I saw Fultz play against a quality opponent, and both times he didn't look good. It's not about his team getting blown out either. With players that are consensus top 1-3 picks, they usually look special and move a different way than the other players on the court. That's regardless of the teammates and score of the game. I don't see that with Fultz. He doesn't stand out from his competition. I know it sounds like I'm just being a contrarian, but I've seen at least 5 guys that look like they are better than Fultz (including Ball, Jackson, Dennis Smith and Monk). And even those guys have major question marks in their games.

You are being a bit of a contrarian because you've said the same thing since day one about him, and that's okay. That being said, Fultz was the only reason they stayed in that game even for as long as they did, and he shredded that zone multiple times all on his own (they went to man more later). Almost every time Washington could actually get a stop he got out in transition and made something happen. He was the only one who could create his shot in the half court as well. Oregon's defense is legit so I don't mind that outcome for him.

In that same vein, my stance continues to be that he remains the one with the fewest questions, but I wouldn't argue that others might (or even probably) have higher upside. But he's a "safer" first pick than Lonzo Ball, or Monk, or Smith Jr. etc. to me when factoring in all elements of his game.

Fultz (and Jackson) I feel like you can just put them in an NBA lineup and it will be fine in various roles. The others I think you need certain things around them to maximize them, which I don't think makes them worse prospects or anything, just that their talents need to be nurtured in a slightly different way. That's why right now in a non team-specific big board I feel like Fultz is tops.

However, I do think there is a planet where Ball fits better than Fultz on the Sixers in that I think Ball is more a playmaking 3-point shooter at the SG position as he's shown next to no ability to beat athleticism off the dribble and he's not a good individual defender right now (especially guarding point guards) -- but has shown some really nice team defensive instincts, which is a good thing as he never tried one bit on defense before his season at UCLA. He also seems like a really good dude like Fultz and Jackson, so I like that from an intangibles perspective. But if Lonzo Ball has to be "the man" at PG, I think there's much higher risk for issues to crop up when looking at how he's being successful right now. I'd rather Dennis Smith be "the man" or Fultz be "the man" in terms of being the lead guard, but I like Ball more to finish out a team. It's sort of the same thing for Monk, but Monk is a tier below Ball.

Point being, if you believe Ball can get the shot off at the NBA level, and the range is real, that's a really cool thing to put around Simmons and Embiid, and I think does fit better than Fultz in many respects. It also keeps alive the concept of a heavy switching defense (like Fultz or Jackson), which you can't do the same way with Smith Jr. or Monk.

(Also I still love Frank the Frenchman as well so it feels like a pretty win-win-win scenario, but I just would obviously prefer to have first pick to have the pick of the litter.)

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I really don't understand the intense desire for a 2-way PG. Only 13 PGs in the NBA have a positive DRPM. Only about 3 of them are actual difference makers defensively. It's a run and gun league. I want a PG who will take full advantage of the current rules and become an offensive juggernaut. Simmons as a facilitator will make that player even more effective. I don't want a 15 ppg pass first PG who only shoots open 3s.

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I personally like players that are willing and capable defenders....Crazy I know.
In Lonzo Balls case, I see a great defender who can easily guard three positions on the floor. You can match him up with opposing teams shooting guards and probably some small forwards. Having a guard capable of locking down the opposing teams best offensive player is a big deal in my opinion. I think Ball can be a great defensive player in the NBA. That's part of the reason he impresses me personally. I get what you're saying though. It's not vital that point guards specifically be great defenders, but still.....What a luxury it would be.

Why are you being so hostile about Lonzo Ball's defensive capabilities when he didn't even try on defense until he got to UCLA. And you're also acting like he's some special PG defender right now, which he's not. Seems weird to be so combative about it.

Dude....nobody is being hostile. From what I've seen he looks like he can become a great defender, that's all I said. Nobody was being combative. Sorry if I came off that way, I simply stated my opinion which is what we do here. I'm going to watch him again tonight against Cal. Really want to get a good look at him.

[Slizeezyc]

I personally like players that are willing and capable defenders....Crazy I know.
In Lonzo Balls case, I see a great defender who can easily guard three positions on the floor. You can match him up with opposing teams shooting guards and probably some small forwards. Having a guard capable of locking down the opposing teams best offensive player is a big deal in my opinion. I think Ball can be a great defensive player in the NBA. That's part of the reason he impresses me personally. I get what you're saying though. It's not vital that point guards specifically be great defenders, but still.....What a luxury it would be.

Why are you being so hostile about Lonzo Ball's defensive capabilities when he didn't even try on defense until he got to UCLA. And you're also acting like he's some special PG defender right now, which he's not. Seems weird to be so combative about it.

Dude....nobody is being hostile. From what I've seen he looks like he can become a great defender, that's all I said. Nobody was being combative. Sorry if I came off that way, I simply stated my opinion which is what we do here. I'm going to watch him again tonight against Cal. Really want to get a good look at him.

Fair enough, misinterpreted. He's 6-6 so he should be able to switch for sure. But he's really not good in pick and roll at this juncture so he's certainly better at guarding 2s and 3s than 1s at this point. His on-ball defense has a real long way to go, but as I said previously, shows some good team instincts at least and that's nice progress for him.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Why are you being so hostile about Lonzo Ball's defensive capabilities when he didn't even try on defense until he got to UCLA. And you're also acting like he's some special PG defender right now, which he's not. Seems weird to be so combative about it.

Dude....nobody is being hostile. From what I've seen he looks like he can become a great defender, that's all I said. Nobody was being combative. Sorry if I came off that way, I simply stated my opinion which is what we do here. I'm going to watch him again tonight against Cal. Really want to get a good look at him.

Fair enough, misinterpreted. He's 6-6 so he should be able to switch for sure. But he's really not good in pick and roll at this juncture so he's certainly better at guarding 2s and 3s than 1s at this point. His on-ball defense has a real long way to go, but as I said previously, shows some good team instincts at least and that's nice progress for him.

Watching him right now, really hope he shows something tonight. That shot looks awkward lol.

[eagereyez]

Watch on YouTube

He's already showing some flashes. His quickness and length is immediately noticeable. Hopefully he stays healthy and dominates deep into the NCAA tournament.

[Slizeezyc]

Dude....nobody is being hostile. From what I've seen he looks like he can become a great defender, that's all I said. Nobody was being combative. Sorry if I came off that way, I simply stated my opinion which is what we do here. I'm going to watch him again tonight against Cal. Really want to get a good look at him.

Fair enough, misinterpreted. He's 6-6 so he should be able to switch for sure. But he's really not good in pick and roll at this juncture so he's certainly better at guarding 2s and 3s than 1s at this point. His on-ball defense has a real long way to go, but as I said previously, shows some good team instincts at least and that's nice progress for him.

Watching him right now, really hope he shows something tonight. That shot looks awkward lol.

Wasn't his best outing, but sort of showed his general strengths and weaknesses once again. Making the right passes, not much athleticism with ball in his hands, good instincts, a general struggle to get a good shot off anywhere but way outside 3-point line.

[76ciology]

I still think it will be Fultz. There's just a lopsided value in perimeter players over bigs, specially considering Giles' knee condition which gives every GM a legit reason to pass up on him. FWIW, if Giles ends up 1st on everyone big board, it's good news for the Sixers.

[Bigballer74]

Ball is not going to be able to get his shot off in the league. He's not a good defender either, so not sure where that's coming from. The more I see him, the more I have to say pass.

[shawn_hemp]

How does everyone feel about Dillon Brooks on Oregon?

I have sort of become a fan of Oregon basketball since I randomly caught a bunch of their games in 2012 and I try to watch their games when they're on tv and I feel like he is worth a look in the 2nd round.

He can play 2 or 3, can shoot from anywhere, can put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket and either dish it off or attack the rim, and he has pretty solid all-around athleticism.

He reminds me a lot of Harrison Barnes

I feel like if he's there when their first 2nd rounder comes up they should at least consider drafting him

[Slizeezyc]

How does everyone feel about Dillon Brooks on Oregon?

I have sort of become a fan of Oregon basketball since I randomly caught a bunch of their games in 2012 and I try to watch their games when they're on tv and I feel like he is worth a look in the 2nd round.

He can play 2 or 3, can shoot from anywhere, can put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket and either dish it off or attack the rim, and he has pretty solid all-around athleticism.

He reminds me a lot of Harrison Barnes

I feel like if he's there when their first 2nd rounder comes up they should at least consider drafting him

Think he's sort of a guy without a position, which is a bummer. He's got a real iffy wingspan and probably doesn't have great size to play the 4, which is where he would have to play with just so-so athleticism. The shot is decent, but the mechanics are sort of spotty. I think he needs to become a better shooter to have a future, as well as figuring out how to better impact the defensive end.

But he does seem like an awesome teammate, and he certainly seems to have the right mindset to be a role player if he gets better at other things.

[shawn_hemp]

All valid points, and definitely the reason he is in the 2nd round grade right now.

Another player I noticed on ESPN yesterday and is a name I haven't seen in a while is Dominic Artis.

He had an awesome freshman year at Oregon the year they made it to the Sweet 16 and lost to eventual champions Louisville but then he kind of got lost in the sauce next year because they had other guards who would handle the ball (Johnathan Loyd, Joe Young) and Artis really isn't an off-ball player.

Then, he got kicked off the team along with 2 other players for an alleged sexual assault that they were never charged for from a legal perspective. Not really sure what to make of that situation but I tend to lean towards the athlete's side when those issues pop up until proven otherwise. And only because what does a random chick have to lose for claiming she was assaulted by an athlete versus what does an athlete have to lose from assaulting a female? The difference is highly skewed

All that being said, he is currently playing on UTEP (who are one of the worst teams in C-USA) and I have a hard time seeing him get drafted, but I still think he can play basketball after college.

Seems like a player who could go through the D league and eventually get a shot on an NBA roster if someone gets hurt or something.

He's more of a true point guard than anything, but he's considered small for today's pg (remember when 6'2" was considered normal for PGs?) and not overly athletic in a jump-out-of-the-gym type of way but he is very smooth driving to the basket and seemed capable of hitting 3s pretty well from about NBA range in college.

The reason I'm bringing all this up is because I noticed he was very high up the college leaderboard in AssistsPer/Game and I feel like his awful team is also somewhat limiting his potential.

He reminds me a lot of Kyle Lowry, at least the same style of play. I'm not saying he will be Kyle Lowry, that's just the comparison I can most relate him to

[dkj5061]

Fox may be a better NBA scorer than Monk immediately. Fox is special creating off of the dribble and he gets to the free throw line. He has all of the creative finishes/floaters that so many Calipari point guards utilize.

I think Fox will have a very tough time scoring at the next level. With virtually no jump shot to speak of, he is of the same ilk as MCW and Elfrid Payton. Fox scares me and I don't want him anywhere near the sixers.

He's far more talented than those guys hence the reason why he is the starting PG for Kentucky and will be a one and done lottery pick. He has a jump shot, just not a college 3 point shot, he has all sorts of midrange shots, tear drops, etc... He has more in common with an Andre Miller with the added advantage of being the fastest player on the court, that alone will create points.

He's shooting roughly 22% on anything past 10 feet this season. He has no jump shot, not even a mid range. He can definitely be a good player, just doesnt fit what we need.

[SelfishPlayer]

I think Fox will have a very tough time scoring at the next level. With virtually no jump shot to speak of, he is of the same ilk as MCW and Elfrid Payton. Fox scares me and I don't want him anywhere near the sixers.

He's far more talented than those guys hence the reason why he is the starting PG for Kentucky and will be a one and done lottery pick. He has a jump shot, just not a college 3 point shot, he has all sorts of midrange shots, tear drops, etc... He has more in common with an Andre Miller with the added advantage of being the fastest player on the court, that alone will create points.

He's shooting roughly 22% on anything past 10 feet this season. He has no jump shot, not even a mid range. He can definitely be a good player, just doesnt fit what we need.

Anything past 10 feet would include 3 pointers, we already agree that he's bad at that, what is he shooting on 10-15 footers?

[dkj5061]

He's far more talented than those guys hence the reason why he is the starting PG for Kentucky and will be a one and done lottery pick. He has a jump shot, just not a college 3 point shot, he has all sorts of midrange shots, tear drops, etc... He has more in common with an Andre Miller with the added advantage of being the fastest player on the court, that alone will create points.

He's shooting roughly 22% on anything past 10 feet this season. He has no jump shot, not even a mid range. He can definitely be a good player, just doesnt fit what we need.

Anything past 10 feet would include 3 pointers, we already agree that he's bad at that, what is he shooting on 10-15 footers?

As of December 23rd, 27% from 10 feet to 3 point line and 15.4% from 3 and on. I cant find any more updated specific distances for his shooting numbers though so idk if that has changed or not

[CptCrunch]

He's shooting roughly 22% on anything past 10 feet this season. He has no jump shot, not even a mid range. He can definitely be a good player, just doesnt fit what we need.

Anything past 10 feet would include 3 pointers, we already agree that he's bad at that, what is he shooting on 10-15 footers?

As of December 23rd, 27% from 10 feet to 3 point line and 15.4% from 3 and on. I cant find any more updated specific distances for his shooting numbers though so idk if that has changed or not

http://hoop-math.com/Kentucky2017.php

Fox has no offensive game. For a slashing guard, his finishing rate at the rim is fairly suspect for a NBA prospect.

He has a bad frame (light and small), can't shoot at all, finish at an average rate at best. His only calling card is his quickness and excellent defense.

Fultz, Smith, Ball, Monk, Ntilikina are all going above him. Unfortunate year for him to be in the draft tbh with the class stacked at PG and PG sized scoring guards.