2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[inquisitive]

you guys can put all the numbers out there , but i'm going more with what the media is saying...and it's Westbrook right now in the lead.

[K_chile22]

One game doesn't really mean much of anything just thought I'd point out the start of the come back happened with OKCs bench pummeling Houston

And I'd add Westbrook was a plus 2 in a 2 point loss. And the argument "Harden's help isn't better" was pretty clearly not true.

Sure, it's better, it's not 16 games better. Rockets on pace for 62 wins and Thunder are on pace for 46.
Not really arguing with you, specifically, though, it's with the "Westbrook is the MVP because he has no help and Harden has so much!" crowd, which I know you are not a part of

[bondom34]

One game doesn't really mean much of anything just thought I'd point out the start of the come back happened with OKCs bench pummeling Houston

And I'd add Westbrook was a plus 2 in a 2 point loss. And the argument "Harden's help isn't better" was pretty clearly not true.

Sure, it's better, it's not 16 games better. Rockets on pace for 62 wins and Thunder are on pace for 46.
Not really arguing with you, specifically, though, it's with the "Westbrook is the MVP because he has no help and Harden has so much!" crowd, which I know you are not a part of

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

[Teckon]

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon was playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return), Gordon to the 2nd unit and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

[bondom34]

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

[Teckon]

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

Lol another poster had already mentioned that BPM of Rockets will be better since they are winning many more games than the Thunders. Wrong way to use a statistics to prove your point.

[bondom34]

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

Lol another poster had already mentioned that BPM of Rockets will be better since they are winning many more games than the Thunders. Wrong way to use a statistics to prove your point.

BPM is a player metric. So in that case Philly's team is about equal to OKCs. Try RPM, where Houston has better players. Try anything. Go for it.

[Triples333]

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

At a certain point though the chasm between the two teams is just becoming far too large for Westbrook to have a case over him. When one is leading a top team in the league and the other is leading a now 7 seed (with the 8 seed being 5 games under .500) it starts to matter significantly. Bear in mind that Westbrook also has the more help defensively. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my posts entering Giannis into the top of the MVP race if Westbrook is still managing to stay there despite all the L's? Outside of the triple-double media thing, his case has to be right at Westbrook's level.

[bondom34]

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

At a certain point though the chasm between the two teams is just becoming far too large for Westbrook to have a case over him. When one is leading a top team in the league and the other is leading a now 7 seed (with the 8 seed being 5 games under .500) it starts to matter significantly. Bear in mind that Westbrook also has the more help defensively. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my posts entering Giannis into the top of the MVP race if Westbrook is still managing to stay there despite all the L's? Outside of the triple-double media thing, his case has to be right at Westbrook's level.

Oh, I'm not even talking MVP at this point (I've ceded that's Harden's). But the argument the casts are similar isn't accurate, and to me Westbrook has done more individually but team holds him from winning.

[Triples333]

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

At a certain point though the chasm between the two teams is just becoming far too large for Westbrook to have a case over him. When one is leading a top team in the league and the other is leading a now 7 seed (with the 8 seed being 5 games under .500) it starts to matter significantly. Bear in mind that Westbrook also has the more help defensively. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my posts entering Giannis into the top of the MVP race if Westbrook is still managing to stay there despite all the L's? Outside of the triple-double media thing, his case has to be right at Westbrook's level.

Oh, I'm not even talking MVP at this point (I've ceded that's Harden's). But the argument the casts are similar isn't accurate, and to me Westbrook has done more individually but team holds him from winning.

Right, I think that's fair, but the voters still consider it a 2 man race between them (LBJ next). I'd personally go Harden 1 right now followed by Westbrook and then Giannis 2B. Rounded out by LBJ and KD in whatever order.

[bondom34]

At a certain point though the chasm between the two teams is just becoming far too large for Westbrook to have a case over him. When one is leading a top team in the league and the other is leading a now 7 seed (with the 8 seed being 5 games under .500) it starts to matter significantly. Bear in mind that Westbrook also has the more help defensively. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my posts entering Giannis into the top of the MVP race if Westbrook is still managing to stay there despite all the L's? Outside of the triple-double media thing, his case has to be right at Westbrook's level.

Oh, I'm not even talking MVP at this point (I've ceded that's Harden's). But the argument the casts are similar isn't accurate, and to me Westbrook has done more individually but team holds him from winning.

Right, I think that's fair, but the voters still consider it a 2 man race between them (LBJ next). I'd personally go Harden 1 right now followed by Westbrook and then Giannis 2B. Rounded out by LBJ and KD in whatever order.

Yeah I think mostly the same, but Lebron over Giannis still for me. Still a ways to go.

[MrPerfect1]

The sad thing is that it is almost pointless to debate MVP because the media narrative going into the season was that it was Westbrook's to lose.

As a result, Westbrook began with a huge lead and only Harden or Lebron have a chance to surpass him. Lebron won't win unless CLE goes on like a 30 game win streak since Lebron has won many in the past and is just having "another Lebron type year."

Harden has a chance if he finishes with a far superior record and equally insane numbers but even then is at a massive disadvantage due to where he began the year in people's minds, his defensive reputation, and some media hating Harden and the Rockets play style.

The MVP race is equivalent to Preseason College Football Rankings. Westbrook started #1 by a huge margin. Harden started maybe #4 or #5 and has to hope #1 somehow stumbles. Giannis began the year unranked and as a result would have to average 60/30/20 the rest of the year to have a chance.

If Westbrook averages a Triple Double, it'll be basically impossible for him not to Win. MAYBE if HOU ends the year on a 50 Game Win Streak then the media would give Harden the benefit of the doubt over a Triple Double Westbrook.

[Kuya]

My MVP Ladder

1. Westbrook
2. Harden
3. LeBron
4. Durant
5. Kawhi
6. Marc Gasol

[Hero]

There's no way Westbrook could be number 1 right now with his team in 7th place and 10.5 wins behind the top team. That's now how the MVP works and it isn't going to change for this season.

[K_chile22]

There's no way Westbrook could be number 1 right now with his team in 7th place and 10.5 wins behind the top team. That's now how the MVP works and it isn't going to change for this season.

Thunder are 2x as far from the Rockets (7 games) as the Rockets are from the Warriors (3.5 games)

[DeKobe DeBryant]

LeBron's gonna win MVP

[red96]

LeBron's gonna win MVP

Right now, how would it really be warranted? Because he's carrying a misfits to a better record? The Rockets are currently 28-9 (.757). The Cavs are 26-8 (.765) in a weaker conference. Both teams records are nearly the same, but its not even debatable on which team has more talent around their star? Like MrPerfect 1 said, Its hard to overcome the preset MVP mental ranking. LBJ is the reigning nba champ with 4 MVP's so a lot of people already have mindset that he should win it. Its the same thing with Westbrook, the media wanted/wants him to win it.

[SpreeS]

1. Harden by far best cadidate to win MVP


2. Greek Freek
3. Westbrook

4. LJB


5. KD

[Screwston]

I posted the numbers before, and yeah that may be 16 games better. Net ratings without the guys, one is a winning team, the other a losing team.

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

N how many did Curry have 2015 when Harden carried Tarik Blacks to the 2nd seed, when Ariza was his 2nd best scorer with 15 ppg? Seems like this dude Harden can't win, when he has a worse team "well Curry is the mvp bc he's the best player on a better team", when he has a "better" team, "well Westbrook is the Mvp bc his team is worse".

Which one is it?

[bondom34]

During the first 5-10 games the Rockets, there is a differential of 25-30 whenever Harden sit. Why? Because Gordon is playing as a starter when Bevs was injured then. So the Rockets coach changed his lineup to balance the team. Rockets moved Brewer to the starting lineup (before Bevs return) and that helps to create a better balance. What I am saying using a net rating without one player is flawed as how the coach changed the line up is a critical factor in play.

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

N how many did Curry have 2015 when Harden carried Tarik Blacks to the 2nd seed, when Ariza was his 2nd best scorer with 15 ppg? Seems like this dude Harden can't win, when he has a worse team "well Curry is the mvp bc he's the best player on a better team", when he has a "better" team, "well Westbrook is the Mvp bc his team is worse".

Which one is it?

I thought Harden should have won MVP that year?

And also said this

I posted BPM as well. Westbrook literally has 1 teammate positive. The same number of players have a positive BPM on Philly and OKC. Houston's got 6 non-Harden players.

At a certain point though the chasm between the two teams is just becoming far too large for Westbrook to have a case over him. When one is leading a top team in the league and the other is leading a now 7 seed (with the 8 seed being 5 games under .500) it starts to matter significantly. Bear in mind that Westbrook also has the more help defensively. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my posts entering Giannis into the top of the MVP race if Westbrook is still managing to stay there despite all the L's? Outside of the triple-double media thing, his case has to be right at Westbrook's level.

Oh, I'm not even talking MVP at this point (I've ceded that's Harden's). But the argument the casts are similar isn't accurate, and to me Westbrook has done more individually but team holds him from winning.

If you'd have continued to read the thread, you'd have seen that.