Trade Thread 2017: Not Once, Not twice, But Thrice!

[djFan71]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

[SMTBSI]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

Thing about that all-around-team profile is you better have darned close to 240 player-minutes per game of solid play. Teams with Pierce/KG/Allen or Lebron/Kyrie/Love or Lebron/Wade/Bosh or Curry/Klay/Durant/Draymond can win with nothing-special supporting casts. But teams without real starpower have much less margin for error.

Depending on whether or not you count Amir, we've got somewhere between 160 and 180 minutes per game accounted for. If you can add multiple Bradley/Crowder-level contributors to completely fill out the rest of the minutes, maybe we might be able to surprise some people. But right now we're lacking both the star power and the completeness.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Man I love Butler, but he doesnt put us over the top. You cant give up youre prime assets for him, hes not enough.

You have to think long term. You have to keep Brown, ZIZIC and Nets 2017. Thats the only path to a dynasty in my opinion.

My best offer that I can come up with is...

1. NETS 2018.
2. Memphis 1st.
3. Avery Bradley.
4. Jae Crowder.

and I dont think the Bulls do that.

Is Griffin plus Fultz better than Jimmy Butler.YES.

Trading for Butler puts us 1 small move (read: Paul Milsap) away from being serious title contenders. Much better than being two big moves away.

Curry >>> IT
Klay >>> Bradley
KD >>> Butler
Dray >>> Millsap or Horford

Horford >>> Zaza
Crowder >>> Iggy

You're assuming perfect health on both sides. One injury to Golden State would completely shift this contest (though, to be fair, an injury to our team would hurt as well).

The other thing I'd argue is how well we'd matchup defensively. AB-Jimmy-Jae-Milsap-Horford is a very fun counter to their death lineup.

There is always going to be an excuse to not go for it. There's LeBron and Golden State now. In a few years Giannis and the Bucks will be hell to deal with. After that, it'll be the Sixers. We have a unique team with 3 elite 3&D pieces, 1 all star PG who's elite offensively, 3 incredibly cheap pieces that are way below market and enough ammo in the chamber to add significantly to our team. If we don't go for it, that's fine, but it makes no sense to hold onto IT/AB/Jae as we're just wasting the asset.

Edit- I just want to stress that I don't care which path we take-- I just want to pick a path. This half-assed rebuild while pseudo-contending is just wasting assets/time.

[ConstableGeneva]

Most I would do for Butler: Brown, one of 2018 BKN 1st or Smart, one of 2019 LAC 1st / protected 2018 BOS 1st, fillers
Most I would do for Millsap: Smart, 2019 MEM 1st, one of 2019 LAC 1st/ protected 2018 BOS 1st, fillers
Most I would do for Noel: Rozier, Young/Mickey, 2019 LAC 1st, one of Yabu/Nader

Those offers are probably too low, but I can't imagine Ainge including the 2017 BKN pick for any of the guys "available" in the market right now. And if Bulls and/or Hawks plan to rebuild, Bradley and Crowder won't line up with their new timeline (only reason why Smart, whom I also would like to keep, is thrown in there). If there's a third team involved taking on Bradley or Crowder (Kings for example), I still do that for Butler if it lowers the cost on our end. They ask for anything more, I'm out. We're likely to get outbid, so be it, they're not getting the 2017 BKN pick. Losing Brown is gonna hurt -- dude's oozing with potential.

I don't think we're heavy underdogs against Cavs/Warriors with Butler-IT-Horford-Crowder-Bradley-Noel/Millsap-KO-Green-Jerebko as your 9-man rotation. (Replace one of Jerebko/Green with a vet PG if need be.) We'd be left with 2017 BKN 1st, Zizic, Jackson, one of Yabu/Nader, our own picks, and if opportunity arises, the players above for a bigger superstar trade in the future.

Disclaimer/Warning: Just this offseason, I was ready to throw both Brooklyn picks, Brown, Crowder, etc. for Paul George. Butler is playing better than PG right now (both players on mediocre teams surrounded by meh talent). So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[165bows]

I guess the Celtics not that interested in Korver.

[fallguy]

Can't spell it out now, but need to stop acting like GS and CLE are invincible. Warriors were Toronto-esque also-ran without Kerr's coaching and Dray's emergence. It's playing great basketball on big stage that gets you hype, but Curry was considered a flawed player a few years ago. Butler with the right supporting cast could look great, too. Sun doesn't shine on same dog's *ss etc.

Cavs have Lebron, but he's getting older.

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

Butler alone doesn't finish the build - & worst thing to do is peak as 55 win team, like Marc Gasol Grizzlies, CP3 Clippers, etc.

But the only guys on market-ish right now who can have superstar nights are Cousins and Butler.

Get either of them without BRK17 and I think most on the board will be happy.

[mwhis21]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

I don't agree for two reasons:

1. Assuming you can keep Bradley/Smart/Crowder in a deal packaged around Jaylen and picks you're adding even more strength to a strength area where we match decent against GSW/CLE. Being able to throw out Bradley/Smart/Crowder/Butler at both teams is a NIGHTMARE for both teams. Having any combination of the two of them on the floor for 48 minutes it's an amazing option to have. And that doesn't even factor your two best players (IT and Horford) into the mix.

2. If you don't have to deal any of your Top 8, then you just became a much deeper team with Butler. If there's an area of weakness of GSW and especially Cleveland it's depth.

I disagree about taking any one player away. If you take away Love or Irving then Cleveland is very beatable. They don't have the depth to absorb that type of hit. GSW have more depth so they may be able to absorb Curry or Durant going down.

I'm not saying the C's can beat them in a 7 game series but I AM saying they would cause those teams A LOT of problems with that type of backcourt lineup.

[Captain_Caveman]

Trading for Butler puts us 1 small move (read: Paul Milsap) away from being serious title contenders. Much better than being two big moves away.

Curry >>> IT
Klay >>> Bradley
KD >>> Butler
Dray >>> Millsap or Horford

Horford >>> Zaza
Crowder >>> Iggy

You're assuming perfect health on both sides. One injury to Golden State would completely shift this contest (though, to be fair, an injury to our team would hurt as well).

The other thing I'd argue is how well we'd matchup defensively. AB-Jimmy-Jae-Milsap-Horford is a very fun counter to their death lineup.

There is always going to be an excuse to not go for it. There's LeBron and Golden State now. In a few years Giannis and the Bucks will be hell to deal with. After that, it'll be the Sixers. We have a unique team with 3 elite 3&D pieces, 1 all star PG who's elite offensively, 3 incredibly cheap pieces that are way below market and enough ammo in the chamber to add significantly to our team. If we don't go for it, that's fine, but it makes no sense to hold onto IT/AB/Jae as we're just wasting the asset.

Edit- I just want to stress that I don't care which path we take-- I just want to pick a path. This half-assed rebuild while pseudo-contending is just wasting assets/time.

You sure about Crowder >>> Iggy? Because I don't think that is true.

Also, why bet on opponent injuries, when we can sit and wait while drafting elite prospects? You're worried about the Bucks and Sixers? Hell no and hell no.

So yeah, we'd match up well on them but as I demonstrated, we'd be NOWHERE near as talented. We'd also have to get through another superior team in the Cavs just to get to them. That team isn't winning 8 of 14 vs the Cavs and Ws and especially not when they'd have home court.

[Captain_Caveman]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

Two things I hate about people using the Pistons as an argument like this.

1. They were actually a very talented team that was absolutely stacked with high draft picks, plus the DPOY in Big Ben.

2. Why cite the exception, instead of the rule? One team ever out of 70 that won without an MVP caliber guy is pretty overwhelming evidence to copy the other 69 instead.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Curry >>> IT
Klay >>> Bradley
KD >>> Butler
Dray >>> Millsap or Horford

Horford >>> Zaza
Crowder >>> Iggy

You're assuming perfect health on both sides. One injury to Golden State would completely shift this contest (though, to be fair, an injury to our team would hurt as well).

The other thing I'd argue is how well we'd matchup defensively. AB-Jimmy-Jae-Milsap-Horford is a very fun counter to their death lineup.

There is always going to be an excuse to not go for it. There's LeBron and Golden State now. In a few years Giannis and the Bucks will be hell to deal with. After that, it'll be the Sixers. We have a unique team with 3 elite 3&D pieces, 1 all star PG who's elite offensively, 3 incredibly cheap pieces that are way below market and enough ammo in the chamber to add significantly to our team. If we don't go for it, that's fine, but it makes no sense to hold onto IT/AB/Jae as we're just wasting the asset.

Edit- I just want to stress that I don't care which path we take-- I just want to pick a path. This half-assed rebuild while pseudo-contending is just wasting assets/time.

You sure about Crowder >>> Iggy? Because I don't think that is true.

Also, why bet on opponent injuries, when we can sit and wait while drafting elite prospects? You're worried about the Bucks and Sixers? Hell no and hell no.

So yeah, we'd match up well on them but as I demonstrated, we'd be NOWHERE near as talented. We'd also have to get through another superior team in the Cavs just to get to them. That team isn't winning 8 of 14 vs the Cavs and Ws and especially not when they'd have home court.

Very sure. Iggy was a very underrated player that had a great career. But at 32/33, he's no where near as effective as Crowder is. Golden State would swap those two any day of the week, chemistry issues aside.

Im not saying we should or shouldn't go for it, merely that if we did, we'd have a punchers chance and could seriously compete. I don't really care which way we go to get to the next level, so long as we get there. And I think right now we're not really on that path. We need to choose, and probably need to trade one of AB/IT if we're electing to build for the future through the draft.

My point with the Bucks and Philly is that you will always find a reason why you should delay. I'm sure there were people who thought the same after Boston assembled the big 3 and won in year 1. The problem is, nothing is static and things change constantly. Punting the next three years could be smart, but sometimes sticking around and hoping your guys improve works. What doesn't work is putting forth a half-assed plan to assemble very good veterans while simultaneously trying to build through the draft.

[ConstableGeneva]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

Two things I hate about people using the Pistons as an argument like this.

1. They were actually a very talented team that was absolutely stacked with high draft picks, plus the DPOY in Big Ben.

2. Why cite the exception, instead of the rule? One team ever out of 70 that won without an MVP caliber guy is pretty overwhelming evidence to copy the other 69 instead.

Nice. [Had to. I'm a child.]

[cl2117]

I guess the Celtics not that interested in Korver.

He'd block Jaylen. I think he'd have been a perfect fit if we had packaged Brown for a guy like Boogie or Butler or a package with Millsap and had a chance to compete now, but I wouldn't have forked anything over for Korver prior to nailing down such a trade.

Shame though given what he went for. Seems like a classic Danny type trade where you give up a really marginal asset and manage to maximize value out of it. He could have been a big part of our playoff rotation.

[Valid]

Curry >>> IT
Klay >>> Bradley
KD >>> Butler
Dray >>> Millsap or Horford

Horford >>> Zaza
Crowder >>> Iggy

You're assuming perfect health on both sides. One injury to Golden State would completely shift this contest (though, to be fair, an injury to our team would hurt as well).

The other thing I'd argue is how well we'd matchup defensively. AB-Jimmy-Jae-Milsap-Horford is a very fun counter to their death lineup.

There is always going to be an excuse to not go for it. There's LeBron and Golden State now. In a few years Giannis and the Bucks will be hell to deal with. After that, it'll be the Sixers. We have a unique team with 3 elite 3&D pieces, 1 all star PG who's elite offensively, 3 incredibly cheap pieces that are way below market and enough ammo in the chamber to add significantly to our team. If we don't go for it, that's fine, but it makes no sense to hold onto IT/AB/Jae as we're just wasting the asset.

Edit- I just want to stress that I don't care which path we take-- I just want to pick a path. This half-assed rebuild while pseudo-contending is just wasting assets/time.

You sure about Crowder >>> Iggy? Because I don't think that is true.

Also, why bet on opponent injuries, when we can sit and wait while drafting elite prospects? You're worried about the Bucks and Sixers? Hell no and hell no.

So yeah, we'd match up well on them but as I demonstrated, we'd be NOWHERE near as talented. We'd also have to get through another superior team in the Cavs just to get to them. That team isn't winning 8 of 14 vs the Cavs and Ws and especially not when they'd have home court.

The Warriors are young as hell and aren't going anywhere for some time. You can basically use this argument for any team we (or anyone else, for that matter) could possibly assemble over the next five years.

[Valid]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

To be fair, if Sam Cassell is healthy, the Lakers don't even get by the Timberwolves that year.

A lot of people seem to forget that.

[djFan71]

Remember when Pistons won with all-around team, they beat a top-heavy Lakers group that was highly favored and coasted through regular season.

If Karl Malone was healthy, this doesn't happen. Which, I guess proves your larger point - there's always a fluke chance if you're hanging around as a contender. But, man, other than LeBron, you could take a top player away from CLE or GSW and they're still better than Cs - probably even with Butler. Plus, we'd need it to happen to at least one of them on both teams.

But, I'm not giving them the title for the next 5 years or anything. Really just this year, most likely next. Beyond that anything can happen with age/injuries/contracts/etc. It's just our "win-now" pieces have a ceiling over that timeframe as well unless we make one elite acquisition or 2 major ones.

I don't agree for two reasons:

1. Assuming you can keep Bradley/Smart/Crowder in a deal packaged around Jaylen and picks you're adding even more strength to a strength area where we match decent against GSW/CLE. Being able to throw out Bradley/Smart/Crowder/Butler at both teams is a NIGHTMARE for both teams. Having any combination of the two of them on the floor for 48 minutes it's an amazing option to have. And that doesn't even factor your two best players (IT and Horford) into the mix.

2. If you don't have to deal any of your Top 8, then you just became a much deeper team with Butler. If there's an area of weakness of GSW and especially Cleveland it's depth.

I disagree about taking any one player away. If you take away Love or Irving then Cleveland is very beatable. They don't have the depth to absorb that type of hit. GSW have more depth so they may be able to absorb Curry or Durant going down.

I'm not saying the C's can beat them in a 7 game series but I AM saying they would cause those teams A LOT of problems with that type of backcourt lineup.

1. I don't see that as a feasible way to get Butler - was assuming one of them would have to go out for CHI side. But, you're right that would be a terror. We'd still be weak up front, though.
2. Agreed, but again, don't think that's feasible, and at best you're still heavy underdogs with a better puncher's chance.

On the one-player away. Didn't CLE make it to the finals in 2015 with Love out (Olynked) and Kryie missing games/injured quite a bit? And this year's team is deeper than that year's.

[TheOGJabroni]

We could have Butler and Cousins when the smoke clears, if everything breaks right.

I have to think that is Plan A too, but how?

Cousins for BK18, Brown, Rozier & Zeller
Butler for BK 17, Johnson & Jerebko

I don't really want to give up the BK17 pick for Jimmy but if we got Cousins as well, I think you do it. I doubt that's enough for these two players though.

[165bows]

I guess the Celtics not that interested in Korver.

He'd block Jaylen. I think he'd have been a perfect fit if we had packaged Brown for a guy like Boogie or Butler or a package with Millsap and had a chance to compete now, but I wouldn't have forked anything over for Korver prior to nailing down such a trade.

Shame though given what he went for. Seems like a classic Danny type trade where you give up a really marginal asset and manage to maximize value out of it. He could have been a big part of our playoff rotation.

I'd guess it's mostly about not having the salary to trade for him and then still go get other big pieces. Maybe partly about still not giving up even smaller future pieces for short term pieces.

I'm not in the big 'can't block Jaylen' crowd. Take a guy like Rodney Hood, what did he play, something like two seasons of college ball by the time he was the age of a four year senior? That worked out ok.

Maybe they just want to focus on the front court. Idk.

[FlatearthZorro]

Curry >>> IT
Klay >>> Bradley
KD >>> Butler
Dray >>> Millsap or Horford

Horford >>> Zaza
Crowder >>> Iggy

You're assuming perfect health on both sides. One injury to Golden State would completely shift this contest (though, to be fair, an injury to our team would hurt as well).

The other thing I'd argue is how well we'd matchup defensively. AB-Jimmy-Jae-Milsap-Horford is a very fun counter to their death lineup.

There is always going to be an excuse to not go for it. There's LeBron and Golden State now. In a few years Giannis and the Bucks will be hell to deal with. After that, it'll be the Sixers. We have a unique team with 3 elite 3&D pieces, 1 all star PG who's elite offensively, 3 incredibly cheap pieces that are way below market and enough ammo in the chamber to add significantly to our team. If we don't go for it, that's fine, but it makes no sense to hold onto IT/AB/Jae as we're just wasting the asset.

Edit- I just want to stress that I don't care which path we take-- I just want to pick a path. This half-assed rebuild while pseudo-contending is just wasting assets/time.

You sure about Crowder >>> Iggy? Because I don't think that is true.

Also, why bet on opponent injuries, when we can sit and wait while drafting elite prospects? You're worried about the Bucks and Sixers? Hell no and hell no.

So yeah, we'd match up well on them but as I demonstrated, we'd be NOWHERE near as talented. We'd also have to get through another superior team in the Cavs just to get to them. That team isn't winning 8 of 14 vs the Cavs and Ws and especially not when they'd have home court.

I'd have to agree with Caveman here, again. Honestly I don't even want to get Butler. I don't think he puts us close or over the Cavs. I'd much rather have 3 top 3 picks than Butler. Cause even if only 1 pans out we can be good for 5 more years and with Butler on our team we still need to count on LeBron or Kyrie or Love being injured. we cannot beat a fully healthy Cavs team.

I'd just keep Brown(who already has a superstar potential and is showing it) add a top 3 pick this year and a potential top 3 next year.

[Elrod is Back]

Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Is it possible to improve the Cs so they have a much better chance to get to the finals in 2017 and 2018 without derailing our chances of acquiring young superstar talent that can take the team through the 2020s, i.e. not having to trade Jaylon Brown or the two Brooklyn no. 1 picks?

Perhaps.

If Atlanta is going full Hinkie, which it appears to be contemplating, and which makes perfect sense if the Hawks want to actually contend in the next 15 years, then Dwight Howard should be on the market before the trade deadline. He serves no role on the team and it is in Atlanta's interest to move him for whatever they can get and move on with the rebuild. Howard did not sign with Atlanta to enter a Hinkie type process.

Howard has two years after this one at around $23 million per year. He is still a superior rebounder, an above-average defender and a good finisher. He has no outside shot to speak of. He apparently has maturity issues, but Kevin McHale apparently vouched for him in the off-season. We know Kevin and Danny are close and if Danny determines there is a knucklehead factor with Howard, there can be and would be no deal. Danny seems obsessed with giving Brad a knucklehead-free roster.

I doubt anyone can give Atlanta much for Howard. Just my guess. It wasn't like his phone was ringing off the hook during free agency, and Houston helped pack his bags to get him out of town quickly. Rebuilding teams wouldn't want his massive contract for a dude who is 31 and contending teams won't have the contracts, prospects or no. 1 picks to make Atlanta bite. The only contender I can see that could actually use him is GS, and there is no way they could or would put a deal together. This is just the sort of market Danny likes.

The Cs could offer Zeller and Amir, both expiring contracts, to make the deal meet salary cap guidelines. In addition, the Cs could offer Minnesota's 2017 no. 2 pick, the Cs own 2018 no. 1 pick, and possibly another non-Brooklyn no. 1 in 2019 or 2020. For Atlanta it is a lot better than nothing, and it will expedite Atlanta's nosedive into the depths of the 2017 lottery in the best lottery draft class in memory.

So where does that leave the Cs?

Our rotation becomes:

5--Howard...Olynyk
4--Horford--Jerebko
3--Crowder...Brown
2--Bradley...Smart/Brown
1--Thomas...Smart
deep bench: Rozier, Green, Mickey, Young, Jackson

We also have a roster spot open up to pick up another player either by trade or when buy-out season begins after the trade deadline.

I think this rotation gives us rim protection and major league rebounding and toughness. It could elevate the D to championship level.

It also means we still have our best draft choice assets going forward.

The one downside: doing a Howard deal like this does mean the Cs sacrifice the ability to sign a max-contract free agent in the summer of 2017, but that market is looking pretty dismal right now. Hayward is redundant and may stay in Utah. Griffin is likely staying in LA. If Noel is any good, Philly will match any offer. There is no one else worth max money. I think this may be a smarter approach.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Yeah I was wondering about Dwight, too.