Game 37: Atlanta Hawks (18-16) @ Orlando Magic (16-20) - 7:00 PM ET

[basketballRob]

Old pic... shows tape on left shoulder, but it was a right shoulder injury. Also if you look at recent games he has no tape on his shoulders. He injured it against boston a few games back and didn't play again. I doubt we'd be starting Biz all this time if he was suffering from a labrum tear.... not when we have Vuc outplaying him.

True. His production has been down since the injury but I still like him over Vucevic in the starting lineup and I think Vogel feels the same way. I think the only way Vuc start is if Evan comes off the bench.

If vogel loved it so much he wouldn't be subbing Vuc in early and playing biz only a couple minutes in the 4th. If things stay the way they have been Biz won't be starting for much longer.

We've been down the Vuc road and I doubt they go there again.

[Bergmaniac]

Yeah, I know, I recognise the contradiction. The differences, though, are that Vogel is getting results out of our young guys and Skiles wasn't.

Or, more likely, the young guys have improved due to having one more season of experience and the assistant coaches working with them on their individual skills in practice and Vogel has very little to do with it. It's not like they have made some remarkable improvement, it's been pretty typical for players in their 3rd year.

[tiderulz]

Yeah, I know, I recognise the contradiction. The differences, though, are that Vogel is getting results out of our young guys and Skiles wasn't.

Or, more likely, the young guys have improved due to having one more season of experience and the assistant coaches working with them on their individual skills on practice and Vogel has very little to do with it. It's not like they have made some remarkable improvement, it's been pretty typical for players in their 3rd year.

or its a combination. I think Vogel and Forcier have helped develop some players. Vogel also has had a long reputation as being a players coach, so the players are probably not as resistant to anything he may want to do and play a little harder for him.

[Mc-o]

Last year I attacked Skiles for limiting AG's minutes because I felt his development was a priority. In hindsight, Vogel has said similar things and treated players similarly this season, but for some reason I feel he's handling it with more tact and with a better mind for the players.

The reason I'm not upset without Vogel not letting AG run free is that I think Vogel is saving AG from himself. Generally, when AG is having an on night, Vogel runs with it. But even I can admit that AG seems to constantly be dancing a fine line between brilliance and recklessness at times, even when he's feeling it. So Vogel takes him out to let him 'cool off' and to get back in his head and playing smart basketball. That may not necessarily be a case of "watch what Jeff does and learn". It might be more a case of "let's keep you off the court so you don't pick up bad habits (like relying on forcing up bad shots) that I'll have to break later". You know, the kind of stuff we used to curse Oladipo for.

That's the most reasonable sense of logic I can project onto the situation at the moment. Plus, I have a pretty unshakeable faith in Vogel for now. I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't seen growth in AG and Elf in the short time Vogel has been here, and because of that I'm happy to trust him and the rate at which he chooses to develop those guys.

Jeff Green I can't explain. I don't think he's as hate enducing as others find him - and he never gets any appreciation when he makes some big plays. It would be interesting to hear Vogel candidly talk about what he thinks Green does right to justify his minutes though.

Lol vogels coaching philosiphy is similar to skiles. Skiles is an a hole but he knows what he is doing when it comes to coached. Its funny that u are praising vogel for doing what skiles was doing. Vogel has ayed our young guys alot less than skiles

Yeah, I know, I recognise the contradiction. The differences, though, are that Vogel is getting results out of our young guys and Skiles wasn't.

Lol that is wrong !! You are letting ur personal dislike for skiles not let you see that he wasnt a bad coach. Both ep and ag improved under skiles as did our entire team as a whole. Also mario was playing mu ch better under skiles as well. Im glad we ha ve vogel but i realize him and skiles are pretty similar when it comes to coaching philosiphies. So far this team doesnt look much better than last years team and we have more talent this year.

[Dennis Reynolds]

Lol vogels coaching philosiphy is similar to skiles. Skiles is an a hole but he knows what he is doing when it comes to coached. Its funny that u are praising vogel for doing what skiles was doing. Vogel has ayed our young guys alot less than skiles

Yeah, I know, I recognise the contradiction. The differences, though, are that Vogel is getting results out of our young guys and Skiles wasn't.

Lol that is wrong !! You are letting ur personal dislike for skiles not let you see that he wasnt a bad coach. Both ep and ag improved under skiles as did our entire team as a whole. Also mario was playing mu ch better under skiles as well. Im glad we ha ve vogel but i realize him and skiles are pretty similar when it comes to coaching philosiphies. So far this team doesnt look much better than last years team and we have more talent this year.

I agree. That's what's wrong with this board. Way to many guys only follow narratives.

For example AG will play awful defense one game but then he will get a block or a good stop and there will be people saying he's been playing such good defense that game cause he has a reputation of being a good defender.

The same thing is now happening with Vogel. He's doing a worse job so far than Skiles was doing last season no doubt. We had DJ say Vogel was letting players do whatever they want on offense. Any of us here can do that. Not to mention the defense he's been focusing on is pure chit and he certainly has more than enough defensive talent to work with.

The same things people have been blasting Skiles about is somehow perfectly fine now just because Vogel is doing it. Makes me wanna puke.

[OrlandO]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

[tiderulz]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

but Skiles lost the team by this point last year. He is not a players coach, players dont want to play for him. Not saying you need a buddy-buddy coach, but this is a player driven league and you need your players, especially the leaders, to trust and believe in the coach. that wasnt happening with Skiles and looking at track record, it never really happened at most of his coaching stops.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

I think it all has to do with how this roster has been constructed. I think a coach like Pop would have an awful time too with these pathetic collection of no talent losers. They have no heart and definitely have no hustle. This team is just going through the motions and collecting a pay check and I think this is why Skiles jumped ship. I wonder if Vogel is having regrets signing with these losers?

[OrlandO]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

but Skiles lost the team by this point last year. He is not a players coach, players dont want to play for him. Not saying you need a buddy-buddy coach, but this is a player driven league and you need your players, especially the leaders, to trust and believe in the coach. that wasnt happening with Skiles and looking at track record, it never really happened at most of his coaching stops.

That's why I said up to this point and mentioned Vogel being better for progressing with time. We'll see if it actually happens as we hoped though. So far I'd say he's behind schedule. Defense should be showing signs of improvement by now imo.

[Dennis Reynolds]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

I think it all has to do with how this roster has been constructed. I think a coach like Pop would have an awful time too with these pathetic collection of no talent losers. They have no heart and definitely have no hustle. This team is just going through the motions and collecting a pay check and I think this is why Skiles jumped ship. I wonder if Vogel is having regrets signing with these losers?

I was afraid the discussion wasn't constructive enough. Luckily you showed up just in time.

[Mc-o]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

but Skiles lost the team by this point last year. He is not a players coach, players dont want to play for him. Not saying you need a buddy-buddy coach, but this is a player driven league and you need your players, especially the leaders, to trust and believe in the coach. that wasnt happening with Skiles and looking at track record, it never really happened at most of his coaching stops.

Yeah skiles wasnt a likeable guy but he knew what he was doing when it came to actually coaching and d i dont think the players quit on him they still played hard . i do agree he isnt a guy that a player would be excited to play for. Havubg sa if that vogel comes off just as stubborn. Also if skiles acted the way vogel did about not playing AG more last game people on this forum would have blasted skiles . i just want people to realize that vogel is better with player relationship but not necerssarily better than skiles in other aspects.

[tiderulz]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

I think it all has to do with how this roster has been constructed. I think a coach like Pop would have an awful time too with these pathetic collection of no talent losers. They have no heart and definitely have no hustle. This team is just going through the motions and collecting a pay check and I think this is why Skiles jumped ship. I wonder if Vogel is having regrets signing with these losers?

well, Vogel was an asst on some very bad losing Pacer teams before he was promoted and turned them into a winning team again, so im sure he is used to that rough first year

[tiderulz]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

but Skiles lost the team by this point last year. He is not a players coach, players dont want to play for him. Not saying you need a buddy-buddy coach, but this is a player driven league and you need your players, especially the leaders, to trust and believe in the coach. that wasnt happening with Skiles and looking at track record, it never really happened at most of his coaching stops.

Yeah skiles wasnt a likeable guy but he knew what he was doing when it came to actually coaching and d i dont think the players quit on him they still played hard . i do agree he isnt a guy that a player would be excited to play for. Havubg sa if that vogel comes off just as stubborn. Also if skiles acted the way vogel did about not playing AG more last game people on this forum would have blasted skiles . i just want people to realize that vogel is better with player relationship but not necerssarily better than skiles in other aspects.

better in player development too, imo

[Magic_Kingdom]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

but Skiles lost the team by this point last year. He is not a players coach, players dont want to play for him. Not saying you need a buddy-buddy coach, but this is a player driven league and you need your players, especially the leaders, to trust and believe in the coach. that wasnt happening with Skiles and looking at track record, it never really happened at most of his coaching stops.

It's true the team seemed to quit on Skiles in January last season. But what everyone seems to forget is that these players quit at the exact same point in the 2 seasons before that under Vaughn. It was pointed out during that awful January last year -- that they went through almost identical stretches at the same time the previous 2 years. Skiles is abrasive and wears out his welcome, but he lasted into his 5th season in 2 of his previous head coaching jobs, and into the 3rd season in his other, so losing a team in the first year was not, by any stretch, Skiles' "track record." Is it possible it wasn't 100% his fault? What kind of players quit on their coach, anyway, no matter how bad it is? And how bad was it? He had just won Coach of the Month for December and the team was playing its best basketball of the Hennigan era. But I guess he yelled at them too much, so they quit?

So here's what to watch for -- will this roster crumble in January again? If history holds, they will. And will that be Vogel's fault? Will we say he "lost them"? I think the truth is that this is a bad team, with no stars, and it's about this point in the season when really bad teams accept their fate and start mailing it in. Hennigan went all-in on defense this season, and look how bad they are defensively. Way worse than under Skiles, and that's with the addition of Ibaka and Biz. The players know this as well as we do -- they were supposed to be a defensive team, and they can't even defend. My prediction is that January gets ugly, again.

[Jameerthefear]

I wonder how many coaches Rob will go through before people realize that it's the team that he put together, not the coach's

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[PrimeThyme]

I find it humorous some of the people on here that continue to defend Vogel and his rotations && try to justify our 21 year old 4th overall pick averaging 26 minutes on the season and losing minutes In the 4th to Jeff green in blowout losses.

If this organization had any type of direction or sense AG would be averaging 32+minutes and Jeff green would be buried on the bench (instead of our fifth overall pick Mario).

You cannot defend AG only averaging 2 more minutes per game than Jeff green on the season. That number is trending down the last 10 games where AG has averaged 13 ppg on 36% shooting from 3. Why his minutes would be trending down since that stretch is truly mind boggling.

Vogel deserves some blame for his rotations so far whether some want to admit it or not.

Last year I attacked Skiles for limiting AG's minutes because I felt his development was a priority. In hindsight, Vogel has said similar things and treated players similarly this season, but for some reason I feel he's handling it with more tact and with a better mind for the players.

The reason I'm not upset without Vogel not letting AG run free is that I think Vogel is saving AG from himself. Generally, when AG is having an on night, Vogel runs with it. But even I can admit that AG seems to constantly be dancing a fine line between brilliance and recklessness at times, even when he's feeling it. So Vogel takes him out to let him 'cool off' and to get back in his head and playing smart basketball. That may not necessarily be a case of "watch what Jeff does and learn". It might be more a case of "let's keep you off the court so you don't pick up bad habits (like relying on forcing up bad shots) that I'll have to break later". You know, the kind of stuff we used to curse Oladipo for.

That's the most reasonable sense of logic I can project onto the situation at the moment. Plus, I have a pretty unshakeable faith in Vogel for now. I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't seen growth in AG and Elf in the short time Vogel has been here, and because of that I'm happy to trust him and the rate at which he chooses to develop those guys.

Jeff Green I can't explain. I don't think he's as hate enducing as others find him - and he never gets any appreciation when he makes some big plays. It would be interesting to hear Vogel candidly talk about what he thinks Green does right to justify his minutes though.

At the beginning of the season I think that was a necessary thing for Vogel to do. We had to scale AG's game back a little bit right out of the gates because he really had no defined role on offense and really every player on the team was lost and out of sorts offensively. Plus it was a position change for him.

But the last 15-20 games AG has defined his role on offense and is by far our best perimeter defender. I really feel at this point there is no reason he shouldn't be getting 29-30 mpg. This rebuild development has never been the focus and that's what has hurt us. I just look at other players right now the same age as AG and drafted similarly and the mpg they have averaged this year.

Kristaps Porzingis: 34.8 mpg
Julius Randle: 29.6 mpg
Andrew Wiggins: 36.7 mpg
Karl Anthony Towns: 35.3 mpg
Myles turner: 30 mpg
Aaron Gordon: 26.1 mpg

It's just frustrating the way we've developed players this rebuild and watching guys like Mario ride the pine in favor of Jeff green. AG is far and away the best talent on this team. He's really started to come on as of late and we should really see if we have a star in this kid or not. But we would rather have Jeff green who is on the decline as a player take minutes from him.

[Dennis Reynolds]

I wonder how many coaches Rob will go through before people realize that it's the team that he put together, not the coach's

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It's both.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

I wonder how many coaches Rob will go through before people realize that it's the team that he put together, not the coach's

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A lot of people are OK with losing and will make all the excuses in the world. I just don't get it.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

As much as I hate to say it I bet Skiles would have us playing better than Vogel up to this point. This roster is better than last season's. If Vogel is as good as his reputation says then he should be able to improve as the season goes on though... that's where I figuerd he'd be much better than Skiles. We'll see.

I think it all has to do with how this roster has been constructed. I think a coach like Pop would have an awful time too with these pathetic collection of no talent losers. They have no heart and definitely have no hustle. This team is just going through the motions and collecting a pay check and I think this is why Skiles jumped ship. I wonder if Vogel is having regrets signing with these losers?

I was afraid the discussion wasn't constructive enough. Luckily you showed up just in time.

LOL. Well I am not going to get my pom poms out and cheer this losing product. Once we can turn this ship around and management shows it has a direction, I'll get the pom poms out and stop being negative.

[Bensational]

Lol that is wrong !! You are letting ur personal dislike for skiles not let you see that he wasnt a bad coach. Both ep and ag improved under skiles as did our entire team as a whole. Also mario was playing mu ch better under skiles as well. Im glad we ha ve vogel but i realize him and skiles are pretty similar when it comes to coaching philosiphies. So far this team doesnt look much better than last years team and we have more talent this year.

No, I agree that he and Skiles have done some similar things, but Vogel has had much better results from AG and EP. For starters, he's putting the ball in AG's hands and we've already had two 30 point games from him as a result. Skiles never would've done that. And with Payton, Vogel sent him to the bench and we got a career high night out of him as a result. Skiles just crushed Payton's motivation all season.

It certainly makes me appreciate that Skiles was on the right track in some respects. But I think Vogel is getting better results via player development that we didn't get front Skiles.