Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[drosestruts]

Remember when James Harden and the Houston Rockets finished with a worse record then us.......LAST SEASON. Bet Houston fans are happy they didn't blow it up and ship Harden out of town.

[JordansBulls]

Remember when James Harden and the Houston Rockets finished with a worse record then us.......LAST SEASON. Bet Houston fans are happy they didn't blow it up and ship Harden out of town.

Yep

[fleet]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

They can use Jimmy like Harden, but there does not seem to be a commitment to that at all. Hoiberg is going to need to start doing things on his own to force change or show them what he needs done, which he has started to do the last month or so somewhat.

This summer told me all I need to be told. They don't know what they are doing. GarPax just leaped at the first guys that were willing to let the Bulls overpay them, regardless of fit or overall vision that compliments their remaining star. Once upon a time, they had a simple formula that was moderately successful. That is long gone, and the modern NBA formula appears to be outside of their expertise. I think they also knew, and still know that this is not going to work, thus the trade stuff this summer and now.

[Bulls_Fan]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

James Harden route is not an answer.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

Here is a list of 2017 NBA free agents. Let's put a team around Jimmy. It's a lot easier for Anti-Tank to say, "hey, let's surround Jimmy with X, Y, Z." I want to know what realistically w hat X, Y, Z look like.

I think there are rumblings that Jimmy is available because Pax has gone through Free agency and late round picks and knows the answer.

[Minalt]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

They can use Jimmy like Harden, but there does not seem to be a commitment to that at all. Hoiberg is going to need to start doing things on his own to force change or show them what he needs done, which he has started to do the last month or so somewhat.

This summer told me all I need to be told. They don't know what they are doing. GarPax just leaped at the first guys that were willing to let the Bulls overpay them, regardless of fit or overall vision that compliments their remaining star. Once upon a time, they had a simple formula that was moderately successfull. That is long gone, and the modern NBA formula appears to be outside of their expertise. I think they knew, and still know that this is not going to work, thus the trade stuff this summer and now.

You raise a great point. But is the Rockets formula that hard to do? Pax already outlined the idea. Athletes and 3 point shooting. Let the superstar do the rest. And I know some people here do not think that Jimmy Butler is a superstar, but he has done nothing but prove otherwise in my eyes.

[Bomba Navarro]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

James Harden route is not an answer.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

Here is a list of 2017 NBA free agents. Let's put a team around Jimmy. It's a lot easier for Anti-Tank to say, "hey, let's surround Jimmy with X, Y, Z." I want to know what realistically w hat X, Y, Z look like.

I think there are rumblings that Jimmy is available because Pax has gone through Free agency and late round picks and knows the answer.

So Butler retires after next season?

Damn.

[Bulls_Fan]

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

James Harden route is not an answer.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

Here is a list of 2017 NBA free agents. Let's put a team around Jimmy. It's a lot easier for Anti-Tank to say, "hey, let's surround Jimmy with X, Y, Z." I want to know what realistically w hat X, Y, Z look like.

I think there are rumblings that Jimmy is available because Pax has gone through Free agency and late round picks and knows the answer.

So Butler retires after next season?

Damn.

huh?

[JerrySloan]

I have not read thru 37 pages of comments so I don't know if this is repeating anything already said but here goes.

First of all, Jimmy IS a true All-Star but he is NOT a Superstar, AKA, LeBron, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Harden and ???? And most of those guys are definitely NOT two way players even if they have the ability to be.

Jimmy needs to show that he is better than his pal Kawhi, which he did not do in their two head-to-head games this year. Putting up 52 against Charlotte is fairly impressive but putting up 35 against Leonard's Spurs AND winning would be a lot more so.

Secondly, I absolutely do not believe that the Bulls consider him untradeable but nobody here has a clue what the dummies running the FO consider fair return.

As a native Chicagoan who watched my namesake's Bulls in the 70's but have lived in the Denver area most of my time since then, this is a fantasy style trade I would love to see between my two favorite NBA teams.

The Bulls get: Gallo, Nurkic, Murray and Hernangomez for Butler, Felicio and two of the following players, one from each group: Gibson, Niko or Portis and McD, Valentine, Grant or Canaan.


The Nuggets get the best player, by far, that they've had since Melo who also gives them two things they desperately need that Melo never did, defense and leadership. They get a young center who will give them 10-15 serviceable MPG behind Jokic and no trouble with not getting any more PT. If the Nuggs took Gibson, they would enhance both the leadership and D qualities that Jimmy exudes.

Niko would get the chance to be a starter right a way and might really start displaying the consistency he has been giving glimpses of lately. The same with McD because the Nuggets are almost as bad a 3 PT shooting team as the Bulls. Valentine, if they chose, is another mature guy, if only a rookie, who would help the others bring a total culture change to Denver.

The Bulls in turn would get an in-his-prime SF in Gallo, who while certainly not as good as Butler, is a more than decent SF who is shooting .383 on 5 3s per game with a 1.51 PPS and .51 AFG%. They would get a potential star SG in Murray and the future starting center they gave away for McD in Nurkic plus a 6'9" stretch PF/SF who shoots the 3 at a 40% pace in his limited 30 rookie attempts so far.

They would also trade places with the Nuggs as one of the youngest teams in the league, with Murray still 19, Juancho 21 and Nurkic 22.

Obviously, this would make the Nuggets much better immediately and a lock, if they stay healthy, for the P.O.s while knocking the Bulls out of the P.O picture this year but leaving them with a lot of young talent to work with.

In my opinion, it would also give both coaches - neither of whom I have a high opinion of - a better chance to play the style of bball that he is supposedly is best suited to run.

[fleet]

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

They can use Jimmy like Harden, but there does not seem to be a commitment to that at all. Hoiberg is going to need to start doing things on his own to force change or show them what he needs done, which he has started to do the last month or so somewhat.

This summer told me all I need to be told. They don't know what they are doing. GarPax just leaped at the first guys that were willing to let the Bulls overpay them, regardless of fit or overall vision that compliments their remaining star. Once upon a time, they had a simple formula that was moderately successfull. That is long gone, and the modern NBA formula appears to be outside of their expertise. I think they knew, and still know that this is not going to work, thus the trade stuff this summer and now.

You raise a great point. But is the Rockets formula that hard to do? Pax already outlined the idea. Athletes and 3 point shooting. Let the superstar do the rest. And I know some people here do not think that Jimmy Butler is a superstar, but he has done nothing but prove otherwise in my eyes.

You have more of a vision/direction than they can dream of having. This year is an example of grasping in the dark. They can't decide whether or not they want to blow it up, or build it up. Nor do they have any clear idea how to proceed either way it ends up. Pax can spitball, but he can't lead that FO in any solid path. I truly don't get the impression they have internal agreement or rudder. It's make it up as we go along.

[Minalt]

I have not read thru 37 pages of comments so I don't know if this is repeating anything already said but here goes.

First of all, Jimmy IS a true All-Star but he is NOT a Superstar, AKA, LeBron, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry, Harden and ???? And most of those guys are definitely NOT two way players even if they have the ability to be.

Jimmy needs to show that he is better than his pal Kawhi, which he did not do in their two head-to-head games this year. Putting up 52 against Charlotte is fairly impressive but putting up 35 against Leonard's Spurs AND winning would be a lot more so.

Secondly, I absolutely do not believe that the Bulls consider him untradeable but nobody here has a clue what the dummies running the FO consider fair return.

As a native Chicagoan who watched my namesake's Bulls in the 70's but have lived in the Denver area most of my time since then, this is a fantasy style trade I would love to see between my two favorite NBA teams.

The Bulls get: Gallo, Nurkic, Murray and Hernangomez for Butler, Felicio and two of the following players, one from each group: Gibson, Niko or Portis and McD, Valentine, Grant or Canaan.


The Nuggets get the best player, by far, that they've had since Melo who also gives them two things they desperately need that Melo never did, defense and leadership. They get a young center who will give them 10-15 serviceable MPG behind Jokic and no trouble with not getting any more PT. If the Nuggs took Gibson, they would enhance both the leadership and D qualities that Jimmy exudes.

Niko would get the chance to be a starter right a way and might really start displaying the consistency he has been giving glimpses of lately. The same with McD because the Nuggets are almost as bad a 3 PT shooting team as the Bulls. Valentine, if they chose, is another mature guy, if only a rookie, who would help the others bring a total culture change to Denver.

The Bulls in turn would get an in-his-prime SF in Gallo, who while certainly not as good as Butler, is a more than decent SF who is shooting .383 on 5 3s per game with a 1.51 PPS and .51 AFG%. They would get a potential star SG in Murray and the future starting center they gave away for McD in Nurkic plus a 6'9" stretch PF/SF who shoots the 3 at a 40% pace in his limited 30 rookie attempts so far.

They would also trade places with the Nuggs as one of the youngest teams in the league, with Murray still 19, Juancho 21 and Nurkic 22.

Obviously, this would make the Nuggets much better immediately and a lock, if they stay healthy, for the P.O.s while knocking the Bulls out of the P.O picture this year but leaving them with a lot of young talent to work with.

In my opinion, it would also give both coaches - neither of whom I have a high opinion of - a better chance to play the style of bball that he is supposedly is best suited to run.

You would rather have The Nuggets situation than our current situation? I think a lot of people here undervalue Butler way too much. The Nuggets situation isn't going to win us games or even win us playoff games in the future. We had all of their #1 young piece in my eyes (Nurkic) and we traded him to move up and grab MCD. Although we probably picked him specifically for the Nuggets.

I remember those draft threads quite well. Nurkic was a beast.

EDIT: After looking this post over even more. This is straight freaking robbery by the Nuggets. Felicio and another player and JIMMY? For that? Dude really what does this do for the Bulls? Really think about it. Fred obviously doesn't have some special system that needs specific players. He changed his system every year in college.

[Kylo]

I refresh this everyday hoping Butler gets traded. His stock is at a deceiving all time high right now. I appreciate his contribution but also recognise he is not a piece you build around and he is not leading this team anywhere but under .500. Something the FO has recognised, and you can bet Hoiberg has also let them know his perspective on Butler. Guy is a grade A chemistry & coach killing dark cloud over this team, and has been for years. Crossing fingers something gets done.

deceiving would be if his stock was high but their was no evidence to support it, on the contrary, pretty much every advanced stat rates Butler as a top 10 player in the NBA. Butler's also never in his career been on a team that finished .500 or worse, so that statement is false and based on nothing but speculation.

You don't like jimmy, weird, but fine. If you don't like Jimmy though, provide some real reasons, if you have any.

- Not a Superstar
- Not a leader
- Problematic / stubborn
- Empty stats with mediocre team record
- Want to be THE MAN when he doesn't have the capabilities of being the centre piece, he must recognise hs is just another piece, a solid one but just one piece of the puzzle
- Wanted Rose out, no he has the team for himself and he hasn't done anything BUT FOR HIS OWN individual stats, he hasn't done or impacted this team at all

Butler got his chance, he is failing. Empty stats, mediocre record. No impact on team.The FO recognises this, so does Holberg, sayonara son. BYE BYE, Jimmy.

[Stratmaster]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

Building a team around Harden has resulted in a few first round exits for Houston, with 1 fairly successful playoff run. I have never seen the strategy of getting one ball dominant player and running the entire offense through them as a solid strategy for postseason success. The addition of Gordon appears to have helped them but I am still very skeptical. If talented teams focus on Harden and are able to limit his impact, Houston has no chance. He is a lot of fun to watch in the regular season though.

[Minalt]

I refresh this everyday hoping Butler gets traded. His stock is at a deceiving all time high right now. I appreciate his contribution but also recognise he is not a piece you build around and he is not leading this team anywhere but under .500. Something the FO has recognised, and you can bet Hoiberg has also let them know his perspective on Butler. Guy is a grade A chemistry & coach killing dark cloud over this team, and has been for years. Crossing fingers something gets done.

deceiving would be if his stock was high but their was no evidence to support it, on the contrary, pretty much every advanced stat rates Butler as a top 10 player in the NBA. Butler's also never in his career been on a team that finished .500 or worse, so that statement is false and based on nothing but speculation.

You don't like jimmy, weird, but fine. If you don't like Jimmy though, provide some real reasons, if you have any.

- Not a Superstar
- Not a leader
- Problematic / stubborn
- Empty stats with mediocre team record
- Want to be THE MAN when he doesn't have the capabilities of being the centre piece, he must recognise hs is just another piece, a solid one but just one piece of the puzzle
- Wanted Rose out, no he has the team for himself and he hasn't done anything BUT FOR HIS OWN individual stats, he hasn't done or impacted this team at all

Butler got his chance, he is failing. Empty stats, mediocre record. No impact on team.The FO recognises this, so does Holberg, sayonara son. BYE BYE, Jimmy.

Are we watching the same basketball team over here? Jimmy Butler is dominating these games and it isn't even funny.

Now everyone's definition of a superstar is different, but one thing they all have is clutchness. Jimmy Butler is clutch. His stats are very close to their stats. I do not know what these empty stats are. He is literally top 2 at getting Freethrows. Which is one of the most important aspects of basketball.

His work ethic is unmatched. Do you listen to our young players? They are consistently talking about how Jimmy Butler motivates them to get into the gym and workout. They all want to be like Jimmy and make it in this league. That is a leader.

Of course he wants to be the man! You know how many teams wish they had a player than wanted to be the man? Jimmy has been nothing but freaking clutch in these basketball games. I rather him be the man than just about anyone else in this league. Wade has been around the NBA and succeeded more than 99.9% of other NBA players. I will take his word for Jimmy having true "greatness" than anyone on this board. And Wade is not a BSer when he is being interviewed.

Where did he say that he wanted Rose out? Especially for his own individual stats? Rose was playing terribly all of those seasons and barely got up to play. He didn't have the same drive to win basketball games like Jimmy did. JIMMY WANTS TO WIN. He wants to cement a true legacy in this game and be known as a beast.

[Minalt]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

Building a team around Harden has resulted in a few first round exits for Houston, with 1 fairly successful playoff run. I have never seen the strategy of getting one ball dominant player and running the entire offense through them as a solid strategy for postseason success. The addition of Gordon appears to have helped them but I am still very skeptical. If talented teams focus on Harden and are able to limit his impact, Houston has no chance. He is a lot of fun to watch in the regular season though.

Then I ask you this? How in the world do we become a great team that wins championships? Teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and the Spurs are impossible to just emulate. The Warriors are only like this because Curry was injured his first few years. Cleveland has Lebron. And the Spurs have been working on this for over 20 years with a well thought out system and an amazing coach and FO. Not to mention all of the Hall of Fame talent. The other 27 teams in this league (barring The Heat the last few years) are out here not winning anything. All of them are trying to win, but it is not easy. Not so simple as just "HEY LETS GET SOME DRAFT PICKS AND GO WIN! DUH WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT?"

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Remember that.

[fleet]

For the keep Jimmy people. PLease outline your 'fix the Bulls' outline. What will the Bulls do in the 2017 and 2018 offseason and trade market while building around Jimmy.

Would love to see some REALISTIC options.

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

Building a team around Harden has resulted in a few first round exits for Houston, with 1 fairly successful playoff run. I have never seen the strategy of getting one ball dominant player and running the entire offense through them as a solid strategy for postseason success. The addition of Gordon appears to have helped them but I am still very skeptical. If talented teams focus on Harden and are able to limit his impact, Houston has no chance. He is a lot of fun to watch in the regular season though.

I think they simply optimize the franchise player that they currently have as best they can. It may not be an ideal battleplan, to go this route. And they possibly know that already.

[Bomba Navarro]

James Harden route is not an answer.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

Here is a list of 2017 NBA free agents. Let's put a team around Jimmy. It's a lot easier for Anti-Tank to say, "hey, let's surround Jimmy with X, Y, Z." I want to know what realistically w hat X, Y, Z look like.

I think there are rumblings that Jimmy is available because Pax has gone through Free agency and late round picks and knows the answer.

So Butler retires after next season?

Damn.

huh?

Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

[Bomba Navarro]

I refresh this everyday hoping Butler gets traded. His stock is at a deceiving all time high right now. I appreciate his contribution but also recognise he is not a piece you build around and he is not leading this team anywhere but under .500. Something the FO has recognised, and you can bet Hoiberg has also let them know his perspective on Butler. Guy is a grade A chemistry & coach killing dark cloud over this team, and has been for years. Crossing fingers something gets done.

deceiving would be if his stock was high but their was no evidence to support it, on the contrary, pretty much every advanced stat rates Butler as a top 10 player in the NBA. Butler's also never in his career been on a team that finished .500 or worse, so that statement is false and based on nothing but speculation.

You don't like jimmy, weird, but fine. If you don't like Jimmy though, provide some real reasons, if you have any.

- Not a Superstar
- Not a leader
- Problematic / stubborn
- Empty stats with mediocre team record
- Want to be THE MAN when he doesn't have the capabilities of being the centre piece, he must recognise hs is just another piece, a solid one but just one piece of the puzzle
- Wanted Rose out, no he has the team for himself and he hasn't done anything BUT FOR HIS OWN individual stats, he hasn't done or impacted this team at all

Butler got his chance, he is failing. Empty stats, mediocre record. No impact on team.The FO recognises this, so does Holberg, sayonara son. BYE BYE, Jimmy.

Butler's current girlfriend sends you regards. It was nice to be your gf. For a while.

[fleet]

I

So Butler retires after next season?

Damn.

huh?

Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

[Minalt]

I

huh?

Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

Baseball is a totally different game than basketball. This is a superstar league simple as that.

Maybe if the D-League keeps developing we will see a slight change. But even then, the most athletic/talented monsters rise to the top. And there are not a lot of them like there are in baseball

Even if I give posters on here 10 years and they can create hypothetical players after the 2nd year (because we have college players now). There wouldn't be a poster here that can create anything in there other than hopes and dreams. At least with Jimmy we know what we have. Still hopes and dreams, but damn it is better than blowing it up.

[Stratmaster]

As other posters have said. I kind of like the James Harden route. Build a team around him like the Rockets have. Honestly, by blowing it all up we are not guaranteed success anyways. At least this route we have a chance to compete. The other route there is no guarantees. Especially with this Front Office

Building a team around Harden has resulted in a few first round exits for Houston, with 1 fairly successful playoff run. I have never seen the strategy of getting one ball dominant player and running the entire offense through them as a solid strategy for postseason success. The addition of Gordon appears to have helped them but I am still very skeptical. If talented teams focus on Harden and are able to limit his impact, Houston has no chance. He is a lot of fun to watch in the regular season though.

Then I ask you this? How in the world do we become a great team that wins championships? Teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and the Spurs are impossible to just emulate. The Warriors are only like this because Curry was injured his first few years. Cleveland has Lebron. And the Spurs have been working on this for over 20 years with a well thought out system and an amazing coach and FO. Not to mention all of the Hall of Fame talent. The other 27 teams in this league (barring The Heat the last few years) are out here not winning anything. All of them are trying to win, but it is not easy. Not so simple as just "HEY LETS GET SOME DRAFT PICKS AND GO WIN! DUH WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT?"

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Remember that.

I agree it isn't that simple. It also isn't as simple as surrounding Butler with complimentary pieces. The bulls need a 2nd Butler level player.

Who did golden State emulate? Who did San Antonio emulate? Chasing a perceived "formula" that some other team has used doesn't usually work. Those teams are the way they are because they have exceptional talent and have tailored their approach to best utilize that talent. unless you have the same lewvel and type of talent, emulating them gets you nowhere.

I believe you may have thought I was arguing to shed Butler. I'm not. However, I am arguing against the idea that the Bulls should focus on finding complementary players to Butler. I don;t think he is that level of talent...and even if he is, one of Butler's great assets is that he has a complete set of skills, and can play either wing spot. He is perfectly suited to adapt to whatever other dynamic scorer the Bulls can obtain. They just haven't had one to pair with him.