Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[JerrySloan]

EDIT: After looking this post over even more. This is straight freaking robbery by the Nuggets. Felicio and another player and JIMMY? For that? Dude really what does this do for the Bulls? Really think about it. Fred obviously doesn't have some special system that needs specific players. He changed his system every year in college.

I don't need to think about it. I did that before I wrote it.

Murray was last year's 7th pick in the draft. I would bet you a lot that, if they all stay healthy, he will top out as way better than Grant, Valentine AND better than McD. If you don't think that Nurkic has the upside to be a noticeably better center than Lopez, that's your problem.

And Hernangomez is another guy whom you obviously haven't seen. Right now I'd say that he is way ahead of Portis in knowing how to play in the NBA after having played Pro ball in Spain for 4 years. He is fast, athletic, has a 7 foot wingspan and , as I said, is shooting .407 in his limited - 30 - 3 pointers.

Giving up Felicio and whomever else besides Butler to get a 22 year old who could be a starting center as early as next year, a top 1st round pick SG from 2016, the 11th highest scoring SF in the league who is a much better 3 point shooter than Butler and a 21 year stretch PF/SF who shoots the 3 well is definitely not bad.

And I told you what it did for the Bulls in my previous post.

[Wingy]

Here's a trade that I would do for Butler.

Butler and 2017 first to Philly for Simmons, Okafor and Philly 2017 first.

Yes, I know that sounds ludicrous af and that's because it's supposed to. We shouldn't be taking anything for Butler that doesn't clearly lay a legit foundation for the future. Next year this time might be a different situation. But as of now, Jimmy "statistically" is a top ten guy. We may not be that great. But we certainly aren't a team in turmoil to the extent where we should be gift wrapping that type of player.

I would do that deal and im not afan of moving butler

That trade is awful. Okafor isn't an elite prospect. Butler makes the Philly 1st immediately much worse. Then the so-called crown jewel of this deal couldn't even get his team to the NCAA COLLEGE (COLLEGE!!!) tournament, and has started his career out injured already. Injured. Sounds like the perfect Bull. I slam the phone down hard if Philly actually would propose this.

You better start w/Embiid if you even wanna have a conversation.

[BigUps]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

[Ice Man]

The Bulls get: Gallo, Nurkic, Murray and Hernangomez for Butler, Felicio and two of the following players, one from each group: Gibson, Niko or Portis and McD, Valentine, Grant or Canaan..

So the Bulls trade the best player, by far, on an 18-18 team, plus other players, in exchange for the 3rd, 4th, 8th and 12th best players on a 14-22 team? Probably not.

This might work, though -

Butler for Jokic, Nurkic, Fareid, and the Nuggets #1.

[fleet]

I
Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

Baseball is a totally different game than basketball. This is a superstar league simple as that.

Maybe if the D-League keeps developing we will see a slight change. But even then, the most athletic/talented monsters rise to the top. And there are not a lot of them like there are in baseball

Even if I give posters on here 10 years and they can create hypothetical players after the 2nd year (because we have college players now). There wouldn't be a poster here that can create anything in there other than hopes and dreams. At least with Jimmy we know what we have. Still hopes and dreams, but damn it is better than blowing it up.

depends on what floats your boat. I'd rather be reading up on aquiring players at the top of this draft than reading about a ceilinged out team like the MehBulls.

[Minalt]

Building a team around Harden has resulted in a few first round exits for Houston, with 1 fairly successful playoff run. I have never seen the strategy of getting one ball dominant player and running the entire offense through them as a solid strategy for postseason success. The addition of Gordon appears to have helped them but I am still very skeptical. If talented teams focus on Harden and are able to limit his impact, Houston has no chance. He is a lot of fun to watch in the regular season though.

Then I ask you this? How in the world do we become a great team that wins championships? Teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and the Spurs are impossible to just emulate. The Warriors are only like this because Curry was injured his first few years. Cleveland has Lebron. And the Spurs have been working on this for over 20 years with a well thought out system and an amazing coach and FO. Not to mention all of the Hall of Fame talent. The other 27 teams in this league (barring The Heat the last few years) are out here not winning anything. All of them are trying to win, but it is not easy. Not so simple as just "HEY LETS GET SOME DRAFT PICKS AND GO WIN! DUH WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT?"

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Remember that.

I agree it isn't that simple. It also isn't as simple as surrounding Butler with complimentary pieces. The bulls need a 2nd Butler level player.

Who did golden State emulate? Who did San Antonio emulate? Chasing a perceived "formula" that some other team has used doesn't usually work. Those teams are the way they are because they have exceptional talent and have tailored their approach to best utilize that talent. unless you have the same lewvel and type of talent, emulating them gets you nowhere.

I believe you may have thought I was arguing to shed Butler. I'm not. However, I am arguing against the idea that the Bulls should focus on finding complementary players to Butler. I don;t think he is that level of talent...and even if he is, one of Butler's great assets is that he has a complete set of skills, and can play either wing spot. He is perfectly suited to adapt to whatever other dynamic scorer the Bulls can obtain. They just haven't had one to pair with him.

Sorry Stratmaster, we are more along the same lines that I though. I am not guaranteeing anything with Jimmy either. In fact, the chances of something happen are also slim. So I understand why people would rather just blow it up and give us more chances to field amazing players.

But personally I like the idea of building around Jimmy specifically. And maybe another player around the league will see that and team up with us. CP3? Blake Griffin? Who knows, at least then they are joining someone they know is a beast in Jimmy. Players do not like to team up with young players just entering the league. They want to join people who have battled.

Example: Golden State, The Heat, Cavs, Dallas Mavs, The Spurs.

All those teams are winning (or have won if you look at the Mavs). None of them did a huge rebuild (except maybe the Cavs if you look far back enough). And they all battled hard as hell until the right pieces came to them.

[Mech Engineer]

I

huh?

Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

So you are kind of equating GarPax to Theo who had built a championship team already in Boston. These guys have made one conference final in more than a decade.

The difference is Theo also understood other modern things in baseball. They are wizards of the analytics in baseball. I have heard Gar say in an interview that they are not into all that analytics stuff a lot.

The overall point is they have Jimmy at his peak for 4 or 5 more years. By stumbling and bumbling, they will get some good players and Jimmy might recruit someone unlike Rose. The Bulls have never had a recruiting star. Rose made a big deal even about Melo.

[Minalt]

EDIT: After looking this post over even more. This is straight freaking robbery by the Nuggets. Felicio and another player and JIMMY? For that? Dude really what does this do for the Bulls? Really think about it. Fred obviously doesn't have some special system that needs specific players. He changed his system every year in college.

I don't need to think about it. I did that before I wrote it.

Murray was last year's 7th pick in the draft. I would bet you a lot that, if they all stay healthy, he will top out as way better than Grant, Valentine AND better than McD. If you don't think that Nurkic has the upside to be a noticeably better center than Lopez, that's your problem.

And Hernangomez is another guy whom you obviously haven't seen. Right now I'd say that he is way ahead of Portis in knowing how to play in the NBA after having played Pro ball in Spain for 4 years. He is fast, athletic, has a 7 foot wingspan and , as I said, is shooting .407 in his limited - 30 - 3 pointers.

Giving up Felicio and whomever else besides Butler to get a 22 year old who could be a starting center as early as next year, a top 1st round pick SG from 2016, the 11th highest scoring SF in the league who is a much better 3 point shooter than Butler and a 21 year stretch PF/SF who shoots the 3 well is definitely not bad.

And I told you what it did for the Bulls in my previous post.

I understand that. I really do. But if you look at the amount of times that players have actually become something in this league. THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE HISTORY of the NBA. It just about NEVER happens.

480 out of 499 players in this league are better than Bobby Portis.

[Minalt]

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

Baseball is a totally different game than basketball. This is a superstar league simple as that.

Maybe if the D-League keeps developing we will see a slight change. But even then, the most athletic/talented monsters rise to the top. And there are not a lot of them like there are in baseball

Even if I give posters on here 10 years and they can create hypothetical players after the 2nd year (because we have college players now). There wouldn't be a poster here that can create anything in there other than hopes and dreams. At least with Jimmy we know what we have. Still hopes and dreams, but damn it is better than blowing it up.

depends on what floats your boat. I'd rather be reading up on aquiring players at the top of this draft than reading about a ceilinged out team like the MehBulls.

Well I understand this for sure. In fact I use to be in the blow it up bandwagon like 4 years ago.

But after watching the league more and looking at the past, it just about never works out for the team blowing it up. I think most championship teams seem to just happen. And each one has found success in different way. Some through a steady culture change. Some through big free agents. Haven't found one that blew it up and just succeeded because they chose to tank.

[GimmeDat]

I think if your goal in trading Jimmy is to get back a Jimmy level prospect, you have unrealistic expectations.

It's all about getting a bunch of high level assets to build a flexible core to build around, if you happen to hit on a star in the process, even better.

Though I'm often here arguing for a Butler trade, it's always at full market value. If you're getting less than an appropriate haul for Jimmy, it would be a catastrophic move, and we'd be better keeping Jimmy and keeping our FA fingers crossed, plus hoping he land a steal with our picks this year.

What's a catastrophic move? Well, the Nuggets one I just saw on this page for Murray/Nurkic/Hernangomez is an example of one.

A deal shouldn't be rated based on the breadth of assets being accumlated, but the strength of the centerpiece asset. It has to be on the tier of a BKN 17/Jokic/Wiggins/LaVine type.

[fleet]

I
Can we Jimmy Butler keepers ask you tank boys how you are going to build a better team within a year after you've traded Butler? Because that's the time frame you're using.

You trade Butler, and you already know you aren't going to be better in a year. There probably is no timeframe. Theo had a loose idea how long it might take, but being better in a year or 2 was certainly never his goal.

So you are kind of equating GarPax to Theo who had built a championship team already in Boston. These guys have made one conference final in more than a decade.

The difference is Theo also understood other modern things in baseball. They are wizards of the analytics in baseball. I have heard Gar say in an interview that they are not into all that analytics stuff a lot.

The overall point is they have Jimmy at his peak for 4 or 5 more years. By stumbling and bumbling, they will get some good players and Jimmy might recruit someone unlike Rose. The Bulls have never had a recruiting star. Rose made a big deal even about Melo.

Top players don't go to franchises with weak rosters like the Knicks and Bulls unless they get drafted into them. Players today don't want to be saviors in today's NBA. They want to be part of an ensemble of greatness. Broken down old guys and spare parts laying around along with Butler is absolutely not. that. Not the least of the weakness is a dubious FO.

[Minalt]

I think if your goal in trading Jimmy is to get back a Jimmy level prospect, you have unrealistic expectations.

It's all about getting a bunch of high level assets to build a flexible core to build around, if you happen to hit on a star in the process, even better.

Though I'm often here arguing for a Butler trade, it's always at full market value. If you're getting less than an appropriate haul for Jimmy, it would be a catastrophic move, and we'd be better keeping Jimmy and keeping our FA fingers crossed, plus hoping he land a steal with our picks this year.

I like what you are saying GIMMEDAT,

If we are going to trade Jimmy Butler we ought to be going to prison for straight robbery. We need to go straight Governor Blagojevich on this league. If there is a trade involving Jimmy Butler, it ought to be SO GOOD for us that the league has to do an investigation afterwards. And GarPax better end up in NBA jail or something.

We are sitting on something that is golden. We better be getting more gold and a few diamonds back for it.

[fleet]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

you would have a much better case if he was 24 years old, but he'll be 28 before next season. By the time anybody could build anything around him, the Bulls window will be very small. And I don't see anything about this team's roster that has anything set up to make a run at a build around him any time soon. Capspace is Lucy's football. What you want is not coming here BU.

[BigUps]

I think if your goal in trading Jimmy is to get back a Jimmy level prospect, you have unrealistic expectations.

It's all about getting a bunch of high level assets to build a flexible core to build around, if you happen to hit on a star in the process, even better.

Though I'm often here arguing for a Butler trade, it's always at full market value. If you're getting less than an appropriate haul for Jimmy, it would be a catastrophic move, and we'd be better keeping Jimmy and keeping our FA fingers crossed, plus hoping he land a steal with our picks this year.

What's a catastrophic move? Well, the Nuggets one I just saw on this page for Murray/Nurkic/Hernangomez is an example of one.

A deal shouldn't be rated based on the breadth of assets being accumlated, but the strength of the centerpiece asset. It has to be on the tier of a BKN 17/Jokic/Wiggins/LaVine type.

This is rarer than rare though. When you trade the star you lose 99.9% of the time. Its a league where star power reigns supreme and consolidating Jimmy into anything less than a star is catastrophic. Even your example of Wiggins, Jokic and Lavine isn't equal value in return. Its chalk full of potential, but potential doesn't always hit.

[Rerisen]

Baseball is a totally different game than basketball. This is a superstar league simple as that.

Exactly. If you trade Jimmy and say get one top 3 pick, that is your one chance to get a better superstar than he is. If you whiff the pick, or a megastar isn't in the draft, or is already gone when you pick, you've just set your franchise back 3-7 years.

The Cubs could afford to miss one prospect here or there as long as they had a cadre of great ones. Heck, Schwarber was hurt all year till the WS they won the most games without him.

The NBA isn't like that. No matter how many Jae Crowder's you get back, or how many late lottery picks that become Kirk Hinrich or Deng, it won't matter if you don't have the megastar.

Right now we have a guy knocking on the door of that level, a Top 10 player, and he hasn't stopped getting better yet. He's been better every single year, and just in the last week has closed 2 games in true superstar fashion. Yet people want to dump him.

[Ice Man]

If we are going to trade Jimmy Butler we ought to be going to prison for straight robbery. We need to go straight Governor Blagojevich on this league. If there is a trade involving Jimmy Butler, it ought to be SO GOOD for us that the league has to do an investigation afterwards. And GarPax better end up in NBA jail or something.

Yep. Here's another example -

CP3 for Aminu, Eric Gordon, Kaman, and an unprotected 1st round pick. How'd that work out for the Hornets? Which, by the way, took Austin Rivers with that pick.

A stud for stories rarely works out for the side that takes the stories.

[IcemanGervin]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

[Bulls03]

Wade is telling us he came here to play with Jimmy, why don't we understand our best selling point to other stars is keeping Butler.

Wade came to Chicago because we were dumb enough to offer 2yr/47 million. He is here to cash in and get paid. Coming back to his hometown or playing with Jimmy sound great to the press, but the fact remains that no one was offering him close to what the Bulls were over 2 years.

Exactly. No one else wanted Wade at that price except DEN and he didn't want them. Jimmy is better than any player on the Nuggs anyway.


I don't if Wade wanting to be here is a good thing.


Personally, I'd like to see him walk this summer and have the Bulls use that 24M on something much better that fits Jimmy's age bracket and skill set. You could get Ibaka for example.

Ibaka sucks compared to Wade.

[Bulls03]

If you don't see Wade impact and think he came here just for money and not to compete, smack yourself. That's some of the dumbest stuff I've heard in awhile

[BigUps]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

you would have a much better case if he was 24 years old, but he'll be 28 before next season. By the time anybody could build anything around him, the Bulls window will be very small. And I don't see anything about this team's roster that has anything set up to make a run at a build around him any time soon. Capspace is Lucy's football. What you want is not coming here BU.

28 isn't that old. He has tread on the tires to be a good player for 3 more seasons. You can build around him, no doubt. Go to the youth movement this season and in return climb up the draft board as far as you can. Then you sign a few free agents and hope you hit in the draft. Its about all you can do.

Trading him doesn't increase your chances of being better anytime sooner. Getting a bunch of average back and hoping you still hit on draft picks doesn't do much over keeping a player who is already a star.

This is no different than the Cubs. They had Rizzo, kept him and traded everything but Rizzo and built through the draft. Its the only option IMO.