Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[Bulls03]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

Your boy Rose is about 4 or 5 tiers below Jimmy and his team is worse. Back to the Knicks board

[Bomba Navarro]

If we are going to trade Jimmy Butler we ought to be going to prison for straight robbery. We need to go straight Governor Blagojevich on this league. If there is a trade involving Jimmy Butler, it ought to be SO GOOD for us that the league has to do an investigation afterwards. And GarPax better end up in NBA jail or something.

Yep. Here's another example -

CP3 for Aminu, Eric Gordon, Kaman, and an unprotected 1st round pick. How'd that work out for the Hornets? Which, by the way, took Austin Rivers with that pick.

A stud for stories rarely works out for the side that takes the stories.

Aaaand then again, that's why no one trades a bona fide top 15 player unless the situation is no longer bearable, be it because that player is disgruntled and wants a trade, or because he's old and declining quick.

No one in this league is willing to give you the true value of a star player, so 90% of the time you're better off keeping that star player.

[Rerisen]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

[IcemanGervin]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

[GimmeDat]

I think if your goal in trading Jimmy is to get back a Jimmy level prospect, you have unrealistic expectations.

It's all about getting a bunch of high level assets to build a flexible core to build around, if you happen to hit on a star in the process, even better.

Though I'm often here arguing for a Butler trade, it's always at full market value. If you're getting less than an appropriate haul for Jimmy, it would be a catastrophic move, and we'd be better keeping Jimmy and keeping our FA fingers crossed, plus hoping he land a steal with our picks this year.

What's a catastrophic move? Well, the Nuggets one I just saw on this page for Murray/Nurkic/Hernangomez is an example of one.

A deal shouldn't be rated based on the breadth of assets being accumlated, but the strength of the centerpiece asset. It has to be on the tier of a BKN 17/Jokic/Wiggins/LaVine type.

This is rarer than rare though. When you trade the star you lose 99.9% of the time. Its a league where star power reigns supreme and consolidating Jimmy into anything less than a star is catastrophic. Even your example of Wiggins, Jokic and Lavine isn't equal value in return. Its chalk full of potential, but potential doesn't always hit.

That comes back to my starting sentence though, that you can't expect that core asset to be as good as Butler.

Minny, LA, Phoenix, etc. don't have any prospects that project to be as good as Jimmy is now, but they have a higher ceiling going forward. It's because they have lots of developing talent, future assets and cap flexibility.

We have the perfect guy to build around, I have no doubts you can build a winner around Jimmy, but the avenues to do so in this window of his prime don't look promising, imo. That's what opens me up to trading him.

[BigUps]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

Come on. Lets not act like Jimmy is the greatest player on earth. He's not. He's absolutely a superstar though, but so is Harden, Khawi, CP3, etc and they don't lead there teams to titles either. Its hard when you're a superstar that isn't named Lebron. Its even harder when you have a bunch of average around you.

Its not Jimmy's fault we have been sub .500 and last year it wasn't "jimmy's team" anyhow.

[Rerisen]

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

If Butler's window is so short, and rebuilding is going to take 5+ years anyway, might as well just ride out the FA gamble. At the very least till this summer.

Or until Butler stops showing he is improving.

[Bomba Navarro]

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

He was also a huge positive for his team back then, and didn't really get THAT much better afterwards. You know what the main change was, what DID get better? The team surrounding him.

But yeah it's Butler's fault that the Bulls are struggling, despite all stats showing that without him on court the Bulls are a bottom 3-5 team and with him on court an above average team.

[BigUps]

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

Mike won titles at 33, 34 and 35 years old.

[Stratmaster]

Then I ask you this? How in the world do we become a great team that wins championships? Teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and the Spurs are impossible to just emulate. The Warriors are only like this because Curry was injured his first few years. Cleveland has Lebron. And the Spurs have been working on this for over 20 years with a well thought out system and an amazing coach and FO. Not to mention all of the Hall of Fame talent. The other 27 teams in this league (barring The Heat the last few years) are out here not winning anything. All of them are trying to win, but it is not easy. Not so simple as just "HEY LETS GET SOME DRAFT PICKS AND GO WIN! DUH WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT?"

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Remember that.

I agree it isn't that simple. It also isn't as simple as surrounding Butler with complimentary pieces. The bulls need a 2nd Butler level player.

Who did golden State emulate? Who did San Antonio emulate? Chasing a perceived "formula" that some other team has used doesn't usually work. Those teams are the way they are because they have exceptional talent and have tailored their approach to best utilize that talent. unless you have the same lewvel and type of talent, emulating them gets you nowhere.

I believe you may have thought I was arguing to shed Butler. I'm not. However, I am arguing against the idea that the Bulls should focus on finding complementary players to Butler. I don;t think he is that level of talent...and even if he is, one of Butler's great assets is that he has a complete set of skills, and can play either wing spot. He is perfectly suited to adapt to whatever other dynamic scorer the Bulls can obtain. They just haven't had one to pair with him.

Sorry Stratmaster, we are more along the same lines that I though. I am not guaranteeing anything with Jimmy either. In fact, the chances of something happen are also slim. So I understand why people would rather just blow it up and give us more chances to field amazing players.

But personally I like the idea of building around Jimmy specifically. And maybe another player around the league will see that and team up with us. CP3? Blake Griffin? Who knows, at least then they are joining someone they know is a beast in Jimmy. Players do not like to team up with young players just entering the league. They want to join people who have battled.

Example: Golden State, The Heat, Cavs, Dallas Mavs, The Spurs.

All those teams are winning (or have won if you look at the Mavs). None of them did a huge rebuild (except maybe the Cavs if you look far back enough). And they all battled hard as hell until the right pieces came to them.

Agreed, and the only way to be sure you are going to get the right player is for them to be proven...but hopefully not 35 years old

No need for an apology, you didn't get personal!

[Stratmaster]

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

He was also a huge positive for his team back then, and didn't really get THAT much better afterwards. You know what the main change was, what DID get better? The team surrounding him.

But yeah it's Butler's fault that the Bulls are struggling, despite all stats showing that without him on court the Bulls are a bottom 3-5 team and with him on court an above average team.

I hate MJ comparisons.

This whole narratives assumes that when you look at a young Michael Jordan and then look at Jimmy Butler (even now in his prime) you see the same level of talent. There is no comparison.

[Chitownbulls]

Bron has 2-4 years left...lets own the future. I want 2 top 5 picks....bulls will have their pick an Kings pick. 4 picks in the top 15 in a loaded draft. Bulls have 4 chances at find really good players. We suck next year, get another top 5 pick in a great draft. 5 players in deep drafts on rookie contracts with money to spend in FA.

[fleet]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

you would have a much better case if he was 24 years old, but he'll be 28 before next season. By the time anybody could build anything around him, the Bulls window will be very small. And I don't see anything about this team's roster that has anything set up to make a run at a build around him any time soon. Capspace is Lucy's football. What you want is not coming here BU.

28 isn't that old. He has tread on the tires to be a good player for 3 more seasons. You can build around him, no doubt. Go to the youth movement this season and in return climb up the draft board as far as you can. Then you sign a few free agents and hope you hit in the draft. Its about all you can do.

Trading him doesn't increase your chances of being better anytime sooner. Getting a bunch of average back and hoping you still hit on draft picks doesn't do much over keeping a player who is already a star.

This is no different than the Cubs. They had Rizzo, kept him and traded everything but Rizzo and built through the draft. Its the only option IMO.

well the Cubs don't need Rizzo. They can use him, but he is just the sprinkles on the icing of the cake. What you are watching is Paul Pierce's career, and I think after about another year, Jimmy will be waiting for Gar to give him some superstars to go along with his young sidekick. But there is no young sidekick, and there is no Al Jefferson to trade for Kevin Garnett

[Ice Man]

Usually the arguments that Jimmy isn't that good because his team is .500 finish with saying we should get Phillips or Minnesota or Denver guys.

[stl705]

EDIT: After looking this post over even more. This is straight freaking robbery by the Nuggets. Felicio and another player and JIMMY? For that? Dude really what does this do for the Bulls? Really think about it. Fred obviously doesn't have some special system that needs specific players. He changed his system every year in college.

I don't need to think about it. I did that before I wrote it.

Murray was last year's 7th pick in the draft. I would bet you a lot that, if they all stay healthy, he will top out as way better than Grant, Valentine AND better than McD. If you don't think that Nurkic has the upside to be a noticeably better center than Lopez, that's your problem.

And Hernangomez is another guy whom you obviously haven't seen. Right now I'd say that he is way ahead of Portis in knowing how to play in the NBA after having played Pro ball in Spain for 4 years. He is fast, athletic, has a 7 foot wingspan and , as I said, is shooting .407 in his limited - 30 - 3 pointers.

Giving up Felicio and whomever else besides Butler to get a 22 year old who could be a starting center as early as next year, a top 1st round pick SG from 2016, the 11th highest scoring SF in the league who is a much better 3 point shooter than Butler and a 21 year stretch PF/SF who shoots the 3 well is definitely not bad.

And I told you what it did for the Bulls in my previous post.

You're comparing the 7th pick in the draft to mid-late first rd picks at best. For Murray's and the Nuggets sake, I sure hope he is better than the Bulls picks.

I just don't see the Bulls entertaining a trade to give up Butler, Taj, Felicio, and any other player not named Portis for Murray, Hernangomez, & Nurkic. Any trade for Butler alone has got to start with 2x top 5-7 picks, then start adding in young talent like Nurkic, Murray, and Hernangomez.

[RedBulls23]

I'm amazed at how many people think you can replace Jimmy so easily. Finding a player like Jimmy is really, really, really hard. You have a very low chance of landing one even with a top 3 pick. Its that difficult. Also, replacing 1 elite player like Jimmy with many average to slightly above average players is the worst deal you can possibly do.

The NBA is about having superstars, not about giving them away in consolidation trades. Superstars are superstars because they are rare birds....hard to find and replace. We should be very thankful Jimmy is here to fill the void Rose left. Shipping him out would be a disaster.

And this alleged "superstar" has led the Bulls to what is most likely going to be back to back .500 or under seasons. Jimmy's not the guy.

He also led the team to 50 wins 2 years back, when the over all supporting cast was better.

[Rerisen]

I hate MJ comparisons.

This whole narratives assumes that when you look at a young Michael Jordan and then look at Jimmy Butler (even now in his prime) you see the same level of talent. There is no comparison.

The point was its stupid to blame Butler for the record when even the GOAT couldn't lift terrible teams over .500.

[Bomba Navarro]

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

He was also a huge positive for his team back then, and didn't really get THAT much better afterwards. You know what the main change was, what DID get better? The team surrounding him.

But yeah it's Butler's fault that the Bulls are struggling, despite all stats showing that without him on court the Bulls are a bottom 3-5 team and with him on court an above average team.

I hate MJ comparisons.

This whole narratives assumes that when you look at a young Michael Jordan and then look at Jimmy Butler (even now in his prime) you see the same level of talent. There is no comparison.

No. This whole narrative assumes that a star player that's proven to be a huge positive for his team is by no means the reason his team is struggling, as IcemanGervin made it out to be. That applies to Jimmy Butler, early Michael Jordan, Anthony Davis or Paul George, and they are all on different levels of stardom.

[fleet]

You would have dumped Jordan too I guess, his first 2 (full) years the Bulls won 38 and 40.

Mike wasn't 28 years old .

Mike won titles at 33, 34 and 35 years old.

The key word in that sentence is "Mike"

[stl705]

Here's an MJ comparison.

MJ's last game - 1998
Bulls getting Rose - 2008

It took 10 years to get another MVP candidate and it was a 1.7% or whatever chance. Just because we got lucky for both Rose & Butler in a span of 10 years, doesn't mean we can assemble a superteam through the draft. We'll be lucky to get another Jimmy Butler in the next decade if we tank.