A very frank discussion of the state of the Pistons

[Crymson]

#1. Andre Drummond's offensive development has stopped. This guy needs to be a legit NBA superstar if we're ever going to win a championship. Not just a defending, rebounding big man. We need to get serious about developing this guy. We need to get him a really, really great big man coach. Patrick Ewing (who's worked with SVG in ORL) is currently an asst. coach in Charlotte. Hakeem's still floating around with some coaching interests. David Robinson's out there, busy. Shaq. Vlade. Who knows. Someone.

#2. I like Leur as one kind of a four. And I like Tobias or Marcus as another kind. I prefer Tobias to Marcus.. but it's close enough that I wouldn't care which moved. I don't like either as a 3. Because..

#3. We need a deadly shooter at the 3. And..

#4. We need a deadly shooter at the 2. KCP ain't one. Stanley ain't ever gonna be one.

#5. Reggie I still have hope for as a pick and roll PG.

#6. Tobias or Marcus... KCP... Stanley... Ellenson... Picks. That's the package we can put together in a trade for an elite wing. Hopefully PG13's still available. Melo wouldn't be horrible. Someone I'm not thinking of right now. We can rebuild bench depth later.

#7. Gotta find another sharp shooter who plays defense to occupy our other wing spot.

C: Drummond...Baynes/Boban
PF: Tobias or Marcus...Leur
SF: Trade/FA...Bullock
SG: Trade/FA
PG: Reggie...Ish

That's what's gotta happen. Need real-deal sharp-shooters at the 2 and 3. Ideally one who's a star.

Bloody 'ell, it's blueadams. I haven't seen you in years. I disagree with you as thoroughly here as I disagreed with your arguments on the Red Wings forums.

#1. Andre Drummond's offensive development has stopped. This guy needs to be a legit NBA superstar if we're ever going to win a championship. Not just a defending, rebounding big man. We need to get serious about developing this guy. We need to get him a really, really great big man coach. Patrick Ewing (who's worked with SVG in ORL) is currently an asst. coach in Charlotte. Hakeem's still floating around with some coaching interests. David Robinson's out there, busy. Shaq. Vlade. Who knows. Someone.

He's 22, and his offensive game was actually improving in the first 20 games or so; he had some monster offensive performances. As with everyone not named Tobias Harris, his performance declined upon Jackson's return, likely because his share of the usage dropped commensurately. Now that Jackson seems to be on the rebound, perhaps Andre's fortunes will begin to improve. The last two games were promising.

I agree that the idea of having him work with the likes of Hakeem---LeBron did so, to his benefit, after the 2010 finals, though LeBron is LeBron---has merit. However, I do not agree that he'll never be a star.

#2. I like Leur as one kind of a four. And I like Tobias or Marcus as another kind. I prefer Tobias to Marcus.. but it's close enough that I wouldn't care which moved. I don't like either as a 3. Because..

#3. We need a deadly shooter at the 3. And..

Tobias is presently one of the very best bench players in the league. He is also the team's second most efficient scorer, beyond only Leuer and with a higher shooting volume than the latter. Moreover, he is on a very affordable contract. This matters. Morris, when he's not mired in a slump, is a serviceable two-way forward as well. His contract is one of the best values in the league. This, too, matters. A lot.

Everyone wants a deadly shooter everywhere. They aren't many. As much as I'd enjoy the likes of Jae Crowder (to be at least mildly realistic) at the three, it ain't gonna happen.

#4. We need a deadly shooter at the 2. KCP ain't one. Stanley ain't ever gonna be one.

KCP is very good defensively, and is enjoying the best shooting season of his career. He isn't a problem right now, by any means. It's to the team's detriment that Jackson has taken away so much of his usage; he's suffered more in that category than any other starter.

Again, everyone wants a deadly shooter everywhere. Your expectations aren't realistic. Trade value exists, the salary cap exists. Plenty of teams succeed without a deadly shooter at both the two and the three.

#6. Tobias or Marcus... KCP... Stanley... Ellenson... Picks. That's the package we can put together in a trade for an elite wing. Hopefully PG13's still available. Melo wouldn't be horrible. Someone I'm not thinking of right now. We can rebuild bench depth later.

No offense, but I consider you to be approaching the territory of divorce from reality. Paul George is likely available to nobody, as his value is immense. The resources necessary to obtain him are most certainly not available to the Pistons. Anthony is on the decline, has an unfortunate contract, and in any event has shown no willingness to be traded away from New York even during the depths of that team's struggles.

This team doesn't need a drastic rework.

#7. Gotta find another sharp shooter who plays defense to occupy our other wing spot.

Whom might this be, and how?

C: Drummond...Baynes/Boban
PF: Tobias or Marcus...Leur
SF: Trade/FA...Bullock
SG: Trade/FA
PG: Reggie...Ish

Your entire post is a bit NBA2K-esque. This isn't franchise mode, so sorry.

[Crymson]

I'm almost positive this dude doesn't watch games. You can get KCP get in the 2nd round according to him.

I do like Dre's Offensive game. I hate that whenever he touches the ball more often than not he has to be the one that shoots it no matter if he has terrible position or not. If he had good position wouldn't mind, but sometimes just **** pass.

second round SGs who scores 10+ per game this season.

Louis Williams, Wesley Matthews, Sean Kilpatrick, Bojan Bogdanovic, Tyler Johnson, Josh Richardson, Troy Daniels, E'Twaun Moore, Allen Crabbe.

and there is danny green, better defender and shooter.

All of whom are very much the exception rather than the rule. Moreover, KCP is vastly, vastly superior to Daniels, Moore, and Williams, and generally better than everyone on that list.

[blueadams]

Edited the OP..

So.. Looking at this team heading into the off-season..

C: Drummond(23)(23.8M-3yrs) - - - - - Marjanovic(28)(7M-2yrs)
PF: Harris(24)(16M-2yrs) - - - - - Leuer(27)(10.5M-3yrs), Ellenson(19)(1.8M-3yrs)
SF: Morris(27)(5M-2yrs) - - - - - Johnson(20)(3.1M-2yrs)
SG: Pope(23)(RFA) - - - - - Gbinije(24)(0.9M-2yrs)
PG: Jackson(26)(16M-3yrs) - - - - - Smith(28)(6M-2yrs)

FA: Baynes(30)(PO), Bullock(25)(RFA), Hilliard(23)(TO), Udrih(UFA)
X: Smith(5.4M-3yrs), Gray(0.5M-1yr)

I think we need to..

#1) Retain KCP. It's a tough pill to swallow, giving KCP a max contract. But hey, that's today's NBA, and that's his market value. He's shooting 39% from 3 this season, he's playing plus defense, he's young, he's improving, intangibles, etc. It's really -- as hard as it might be to believe -- a no-brainer decision. Fortunately, he's an RFA, so we can take care of some other business before going over the cap to resign him.

#2) Trade Reggie Jackson and upgrade at PG via FA. Now, the 2017-18 NBA Salary Cap is projected to be set at about 102M, last I read. Returning salaries on our books heading into this summer (including J. Smith and A. Gray) = 96M. So.. that's only 6M in cap space, minus whatever KCP's cap-hold is.. So.. basically zero cap space we have going into this summer. But. There are going to be some really great PG options available in FA.
-K. Lowry(30). He's shooting .444 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's one of the league's most underrated superstars. He's got an ETO, and he's probably going to get a max deal.
-G. Hill(30). He's shooting .475 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's also very underrated. He's an UFA.
-P. Mills(28). He's shooting .435 from 3 this season, and he's a slightly negative defender, but he's also Spurs-trained, and IMO, on the verge of breaking out in a big way for some lucky team.

...Now. As is, are we going to have the cap space to sign any of these guys? No. But if we could move Reggie before the deadline.. most certainly. If we were to get any assets back, I'd consider any such move a major coup. If all we were to get back was the ensuing cap-space.. it'd still be a huge success. Simple fact of the matter is.. and there's a lot that can be said about Reggie.. but the simple fact of the matter to me is that we need a better outside shooter at the point guard position in this offense.

#3) Trade or FA? Somehow, upgrade at SF. In addition to a better shooting PG, this team really needs to add a better shooting wing. Gordon Hayward's (PO) really the main guy on the market who fits that bill. And he's going to get a max contract. So maybe he's not a realistic option. And I've yet to really fully, completely, research the upcoming FA market. But there always seem to be two or three solid-value 3 and D wings on the market each year. Having looked as far as I have.. Kyle Korver intrigues.

...So. I obviously don't know the details well enough. But if you can manage to move Reggie for expiring contracts (in a dream world, a nice 3-and-D wing). Sign a guy like Patty Mills. Maybe sign Korver.

C: Dre - - - Boban
PF: Tobias - - - Leuer, Ellenson
SF: Korver - - - Marcus
SG: KCP - - - Stanley, Gbinije
PG: Mills - - - Ish

That seems like it'd be a pretty nasty roster

[Crymson]

#2) Trade Reggie Jackson and upgrade at PG via FA. Now, the 2017-18 NBA Salary Cap is projected to be set at about 102M, last I read. Returning salaries on our books heading into this summer (including J. Smith and A. Gray) = 96M. So.. that's only 6M in cap space, minus whatever KCP's cap-hold is.. So.. basically zero cap space we have going into this summer. But. There are going to be some really great PG options available in FA
-K. Lowry(30). He's shooting .444 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's one of the league's most underrated superstars. He's got an ETO, and he's probably going to get a max deal.
-G. Hill(30). He's shooting .475 from 3 this season, he's a plus defender, and he's also very underrated. He's an UFA.
-P. Mills(28). He's shooting .435 from 3 this season, and he's a slightly negative defender, but he's also Spurs-trained, and IMO, on the verge of breaking out in a big way for some lucky team.

If you really think that Lowry will be leaving the Raptors, or that 30-year-old George Hill at the salary he'll get---with, moreover, his absence of skill at moving the ball; he ranked amongst the worst ball-moving point guards in the league during his time with the Pacers---is preferable to Jackson, or that Patty Mills will somehow himself be an upgrade to Jackson, I don't really know what to tell you.

#3) Trade or FA? Somehow, upgrade at SF. In addition to a better shooting PG, this team really needs to add a better shooting wing. Gordon Hayward's (PO) really the main guy on the market who fits that bill. And he's going to get a max contract. So maybe he's not a realistic option. And I've yet to really fully, completely, research the upcoming FA market. But there always seem to be two or three solid-value 3 and D wings on the market each year. Having looked as far as I have.. Kyle Korver intrigues.

First off, Kyle Korver is no longer a viable small forward. His share of the small forward minutes declined rapidly throughout his time in Atlanta, largely because he's not physically able to defend most opponents at that position. The vast share of his minutes have come at shooting guard. Second, he's not a good defender; he performed decently on defense for a time as a starter---though he certainly benefited by the bevy of excellent defenders he had alongside him in the starting lineup during that period---but has declined significantly in this capacity. He is presently having an extremely mediocre season on the defensive end, which has played a part in his removal from the starting lineup. Third, Korver is no longer a serviceable starter. He's a tremendously one-dimensional player, being adept only at shooting, and then only on shots created for him by others; what qualified him as a viable starter, despite his very limited skillset, was that he was the very, very best in the league in this capacity. Sadly for him, his shooting numbers have declined since 2015. And that's why he's on the bench now.

Furthermore: no, there aren't any particularly notable and affordable three-and-D small forwards on the market this season, and those who are there will cost vastly more than Marcus Morris without providing any substantive improvement over him. You underestimate the enormous benefit of Morris's eminently affordable contract.

...So. I obviously don't know the details well enough. But if you can manage to move Reggie for expiring contracts (in a dream world, a nice 3-and-D wing). Sign a guy like Patty Mills. Maybe sign Korver.

C: Dre - - - Boban
PF: Tobias - - - Leuer, Ellenson
SF: Korver - - - Marcus
SG: KCP - - - Stanley, Gbinije
PG: Mills - - - Ish

That seems like it'd be a pretty nasty roster

That looks like an objective downgrade in the backcourt and at the three, and an absolutely pointless glut in the frontcourt.

As I vividly recall telling you years ago---with respect to hockey players in that instance---I suggest you do more research on the players you suggest for acquisition. Your analyses are just as underinformed now as they were back then.

[Collymore]

Internet forum rule 3.11: When someone uses the word objective it should be read as subjective.

[Crymson]

Internet forum rule 3.11: When someone uses the word objective it should be read as subjective.

Several applications of logic rule #873.23316:

1) Basketball players vary in skill, effectiveness, and value.
2) Some basketball players are objectively higher in the above than others.
3) Replacing a player with one significantly lesser in the above is, in the absence of any solid, extenuating circumstances, an objective downgrade.

There are plenty of things that can be called objective.

[El Chivo]

where will we be at asb? we can seriously be 7 game under .500 when road trip will be over.

[JohnReese]

If we change Reggie for Mills I give up. I'm not the biggest fan of Reggie but... come on guys! Worst move ever

We need wings and an athletic good FT shooter center to use as a backup of Drummond. Kennard and Patton would be perfect to take in the draft.

[Finn McCool]

Pistons team photo...

Spoiler:

[treefi]

Yeah I'd rather trade Jackson (or Marcus/Tobias) and our late lotto pick (hopefully we turn it around but injuries are piling up) to move up and take one of the stud 2017 PG prospects over Patty Mills.

[whitehops]

this team is so up and down it's crazy. overall we're ranked 9th in the league defensively.

for the first 27 games of the season our defensive rating was 102.7 which would be the best in the league by a decent margin. we were consistently top 3 for the first few weeks of the season.

in the last 14 games our defensive rating has been 115.9, which would be easily the worst in the league. go figure we're 4-10 in those 14 games.


you expect swings/slumps, etc. but i feel like this team goes from one polar to the other.

[mercury]

Any minutes that Hilliard gets should be replaced by Gbinije... it's time to find out what this kid can do. Supposedly he can shoot & defend.

[hoophabit]

Any minutes that Hilliard gets should be replaced by Gbinije... it's time to find out what this kid can do. Supposedly he can shoot & defend.

Oh yeah, Gbinije, he's injured too at the moment. SVG's in a tight spot.

[El Chivo]

what's next?

this core has no future.