Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[MrSparkle]

Wiggins on the max is gonna be frustrating.

For one thing, I'd be really suspicious accepting Thibs' "unwanted" players. He's not really a guy who miscalculates a player's potential. He might keep you on a tight leash at first, but if he gives you minutes but decides to part with you, there's an underlying message.

Watching, Wiggins I fail to see an intensity/5th gear.

Jimmy definitely has an intensity and toughness about him.

[fleet]

they didn't have to overpay an old downsided man or anything. Pat Riley threw a party the night the Bulls took him off the hook.

If you think the Bulls can attract prime white hot elite players at their peak, I'm still waiting

There's clearly a better chance of attracting anyone than there is after you spend most of the decade getting your ass kicked.

Only most of a decade? Well that's better than the last 17 years.

[JordansBulls]

Did you expect this guy to be as good as Melo?

[Red Larrivee]

If it was a once in a life time prospect, they obviously wouldn't be on the table. You simply cannot expect a Butler level prospect in return. It's about building a young core, with potential to hit on a star, and then moving forward with assets and cap flexiblity. It's not about being able to supplant Butler with a similar franchise talent.

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

[Red Larrivee]

Only most of a decade? Well that's better than the last 17 years.

I'd gladly take the last 3 years of Bulls basketball over being a league doormat. The Bulls aren't really short on time to build around Butler.

[fleet]

Meanwhile, we plug on with our current trio

[MrSparkle]

If it was a once in a life time prospect, they obviously wouldn't be on the table. You simply cannot expect a Butler level prospect in return. It's about building a young core, with potential to hit on a star, and then moving forward with assets and cap flexiblity. It's not about being able to supplant Butler with a similar franchise talent.

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

Said perfectly.

What's easier, drafting the next Lebron or acquiring 1 or 2 more Butlers or Wades?

[Red Larrivee]

Meanwhile, we plug on with our current trio

Yeah, no wonder they were given one year contracts. This was clearly a long-term plan.

[Ralphb07]

Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker were also considered franchise top 5 level talents, but don't look like that now. Jabari certainly looks like a all-star caliber player (maybe he becomes as good as Butler, but no certainty), but Wiggins is underwhelming to say the least.

How is Wiggins underwhelming? He is just 21 years of age and is scoring 21 points with a TS of .521. He is going to get even better. His career scoring is 19.9 points again under the age of 22. His TS is .530 under the age of 22. I say he sure is doing damn good and has more room to grow

He really hasn't improved in the 3 years he's been in the league. His scoring has gone up, but that's because of volume.

You talk to Wolves fans, and they say how they prefer Levine over him.

He's not lived up to the hype and I just don't think he's going to be a superstar. Probably more in the relm of a guy like Rudy Gay, maybe a little better.

I think people are faulting him because he's so young. You say Gay and I can bring up his numbers are better than Derozan's first three season and was a year younger in each of them. I'm not saying he is a sure fire get but to land a player of him and Dunn is a nice haul. I personally would do it. I'm not going to knock people who wouldn't I just don't get the people who thinks it's awful. At least admit it's plausible

[Red Larrivee]

Said perfectly.

What's easier, drafting the next Lebron or acquiring 1 or 2 more Butlers or Wades?

I can't even tell. It's the same problem 27-28 other teams are trying to figure out.

[fleet]

Meanwhile, we plug on with our current trio

Yeah, no wonder they were given one year contracts. This was clearly a long-term plan.

I'm old like Wade, and it's very hard for old folks to keep track of the many successive Bulls plans. I assume this is the 2017 plan. Very intrigued though.

[RedBulls23]

How is Wiggins underwhelming? He is just 21 years of age and is scoring 21 points with a TS of .521. He is going to get even better. His career scoring is 19.9 points again under the age of 22. His TS is .530 under the age of 22. I say he sure is doing damn good and has more room to grow

He really hasn't improved in the 3 years he's been in the league. His scoring has gone up, but that's because of volume.

You talk to Wolves fans, and they say how they prefer Levine over him.

He's not lived up to the hype and I just don't think he's going to be a superstar. Probably more in the relm of a guy like Rudy Gay, maybe a little better.

I think people are faulting him because he's so young. You say Gay and I can bring up his numbers are better than Derozan's first three season and was a year younger in each of them. I'm not saying he is a sure fire get but to land a player of him and Dunn is a nice haul. I personally would do it. I'm not going to knock people who wouldn't I just don't get the people who thinks it's awful. At least admit it's plausible

I don't think very highly of Derozan either.

Probably a good best case scenario for Wiggins though. A high volume, inefficent, Iso scorer, who sucks on defense.

To add, Jimmy is better than derozan. Trading jimmy for a worse player and hoping to draft a superstar doesn't get me exited.

I want to at least make a proper attempt at building with or around Jimmy.

[Ralphb07]

He really hasn't improved in the 3 years he's been in the league. His scoring has gone up, but that's because of volume.

You talk to Wolves fans, and they say how they prefer Levine over him.

He's not lived up to the hype and I just don't think he's going to be a superstar. Probably more in the relm of a guy like Rudy Gay, maybe a little better.

I think people are faulting him because he's so young. You say Gay and I can bring up his numbers are better than Derozan's first three season and was a year younger in each of them. I'm not saying he is a sure fire get but to land a player of him and Dunn is a nice haul. I personally would do it. I'm not going to knock people who wouldn't I just don't get the people who thinks it's awful. At least admit it's plausible

I don't think very highly of Derozan either.

Probably a good best case scenario for Wiggins though. A high volume, inefficent, Iso scorer, who sucks on defense.

To add, Jimmy is better than derozan. Trading jimmy for a worse player and hoping to draft a superstar doesn't get me exited.

I want to at least make a proper attempt at building with or around Jimmy.

I'm one of the people who's in both lanes. If they land a star to go next to Jimmy I'm game. If they decide on resetting and getting a Wiggins and Dunn for Jimmy I game.

[MrSparkle]

Maybe Thibs and Minny have softened on trading Wiggins?

21.7 ppg on 18 shots per game for a 21 year old is very good. Like Jimmy, he draws a lot of fouls. His FG% is mediocre. Overall, Jimmy is a much better offensive player IMO, but perhaps age will improve Wiggins' efficiency and decision making. My big beef with Wiggins has been ball-handling; it simply looks reckless for a guy who wants superstar touches. Jimmy has had confident handles since his rookie year. I don't think dribbling is something you can improve, beyond a certain point -- you either have it or you don't. Case in point: Deng. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Giannis -- perhaps his shooting wasn't good (before this season), but the guy had smooth handles considering his freakish specs. Wiggins' spin move makes me want to puke. It's the kind of move that might work in regular season, but against Lebron in the playoffs, I could see them just watching the film and subsequently sending Wiggins into a mental depression.

Wiggins' PER is kind of on par with Jimmy's at the same point (first 3 years of their careers), although I'm not sure how to take that considering how much more ball usage and shots Wiggins has gotten vs. Jimmy under Thibs.

Jimmy was strictly a defensive player before breaking out with a massive PER jump his 4th season. Then he jumped significantly again this season. It's fair to say Wiggins is capable of being an all-star, but it's kind of strange that his advanced stats have regressed under Thibs, in a smaller sample size.

Overall, the big deterrent for me is having to match his pretty much guaranteed max contract in 2018. Wiggins will be around $24m a year. The counter is that 2019 Jimmy will get $30m a year, like DeRozan... but he'll be in his 30s, whereas Wiggins will be in his mid-20s.

I dunno. Tough choice. Wade won't like it. You basically lose Wade if you lose Jimmy, so you're losing 2 high value players. You do have 2 opportunities in free agency (2017 or 2018) to make a big splash, to build around Jimmy, because Jimmy's $20m against a 110m cap is gravy, and there are no bad contracts on the team right now. Wiggins isn't gonna recruit anybody besides maybe Anthony Bennett.

Meanwhile, you see Jimmy hanging out and sharing laughs with the elites.

Not to mention he's the best player in the deal.

For me it's a no brainer. I can see an argument for Wiggins/Dunn, but I see shades of gray, and IMO it's a 35% good, 65% bad deal. Unless Dunn is just getting Thibs rookie treatment and a diamond waiting to shine.

[GimmeDat]

If it was a once in a life time prospect, they obviously wouldn't be on the table. You simply cannot expect a Butler level prospect in return. It's about building a young core, with potential to hit on a star, and then moving forward with assets and cap flexiblity. It's not about being able to supplant Butler with a similar franchise talent.

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

An improvement on what? Because the basis for considering trading him is that we're at a dead end with him.

[MrSparkle]

If it was a once in a life time prospect, they obviously wouldn't be on the table. You simply cannot expect a Butler level prospect in return. It's about building a young core, with potential to hit on a star, and then moving forward with assets and cap flexiblity. It's not about being able to supplant Butler with a similar franchise talent.

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

An improvement on what? Because the basis for considering trading him is that we're at a dead end with him.

Can we clear up "dead end"?

We have cap space.

To me, the Billy King Nets or Isiah Knicks are a dead end, or even the KG Wolves where they started missing playoffs.

When you have many bad salaries on your books (Marko Jaric, Jerome James, washed up max stars), and you've traded away most your future picks, then you're in a dead end.

Having 2 all-stars on your roster, space for a max contract and some incoming 10-20 picks doesn't sound like a dead end to me. Sounds like what the Spurs have successfully worked with for the past 15 years. Also sounds like whiny fickle fans who think the grass is greener. After all, this is the city where media and fans joined the FO blitz to run a very good coach out of town, in place of the hot prospect coach... which has been a proven downgrade.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we're positioned to dominate. But the "tankers" sound like they would've traded Dirk Nowitzki back in 2009/10.

[TheGOATRises007]

Still anti-tank, because the draft hype doesn't contain a generational talent like red said.

And even then, nothing is a guarantee.

I don't want the Bulls to SUCK for 5-6 years and go nowhere.

Try and get another all star with Butler. Lebron is aging. The east will be wide open soon.

[AirP.]

If it was a once in a life time prospect, they obviously wouldn't be on the table. You simply cannot expect a Butler level prospect in return. It's about building a young core, with potential to hit on a star, and then moving forward with assets and cap flexiblity. It's not about being able to supplant Butler with a similar franchise talent.

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

Well, your best bet for that to happen now would be take at least 1 young player that you expect to be comparable, take a chance on some other young talent and TANK this year to have a shot at another young player that could be comparable to Butler. People are completely forgetting how valuable a top pick is and the worse Chicago is this year the better the pick. With Butler on the court for Chicago that pick won't be as good.

[GimmeDat]

Circle back to some of the posts coldfish wrote on this. Building a young core is cool and all, but it's not going to be an improvement unless:

1. Someone turns into the next Jordan or LeBron.
2. Your core is comprised of multiple Jimmy Butler-level players.

Basically, you have little to no chance of either happening and we're more likely to put together the next Hinrich/Gordon/Deng trio.

An improvement on what? Because the basis for considering trading him is that we're at a dead end with him.

Can we clear up "dead end"?

We have cap space.

To me, the Billy King Nets or Isiah Knicks are a dead end, or even the KG Wolves where they started missing playoffs.

When you have many bad salaries on your books (Marko Jaric, Jerome James, washed up max stars), and you've traded away most your future picks, then you're in a dead end.

Having 2 all-stars on your roster, space for a max contract and some incoming 10-20 picks doesn't sound like a dead end to me. Sounds like what the Spurs have successfully worked with for the past 15 years. Also sounds like whiny fickle fans who think the grass is greener. After all, this is the city where media and fans joined the FO blitz to run a very good coach out of town, in place of the hot prospect coach... which has been a proven downgrade.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we're positioned to dominate. But the "tankers" sound like they would've traded Dirk Nowitzki back in 2009/10.

I'm not saying you definitely trade Butler, there is a chance to play the FA field and see how you go, but it should definitely be an option worth looking in to.

Improving through FA is going to be a long shot, in the same way that people feel the draft is a crap shoot - it is incredibly hard to lure top tier talent away from their teams, especially with the new CBA.

It's not a dead end, yet, but trading Butler now for an appropriately large haul would show a degree of foresight and proactivity that would be uncharacteristically impressive from GarPax.

I'm not against keeping Butler - I love him. BUT, I implore you to paint a potential outcome which is considerably better than where we are now. It's hard.

[JordansBulls]

Still anti-tank, because the draft hype doesn't contain a generational talent like red said.

And even then, nothing is a guarantee.

I don't want the Bulls to SUCK for 5-6 years and go nowhere.

Try and get another all star with Butler. Lebron is aging. The east will be wide open soon.

This. We already have a 25/7/5 player who is clutch and plays both ends, just get another guy to go with him.