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PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!!

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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#281 » by Stratmaster » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:32 pm

Rerisen wrote:
ArizonaBullsFan wrote:
the ultimates wrote:
It almost lost the game as well. Mirotic and Felicio were getting abused in pick and roll.


That lineup took the floor when Jimmy entered the game with 7:54 left in the 4th quarter and the Bulls down 96-83.

Over that final 12:54, they outscored Toronto 40-22.

I guess we have vastly different definitions of "almost lost the game".


Not sure why it took him so long, many of us been saying don't play a natural PG since the start of the year.


Probably has something to do with the front office going out and spending money on a PG with a lengthy resume' (of both good and bad). Seriously, you can't be dinging Hoiberg for not benching Rondo before he had even played a game as a Bull. The front office took a gamble. Fred shut it down about as quickly as he could after the proof of concept failed.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#282 » by 7ucchini » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:34 pm

Ichimoku wrote:
Bulls03 wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Wade only did 2 good things in this game

1. The cut to the basket for the dunk when Jimmy drew all the attention

2. Making sure the ball was in Jimmy's hands at the end

Other than that he is getting worse as the season goes on, where is that guy from the first few weeks of the season?


He played great defense in the 4th and OT and had a huge block on DD. 20-4-7 but shot bad.

I think he's effected most by the lack of spacing with the starters. We should start Niko and see if that helps him. We need him shooting around 46-48% from the field.

Exactly ! Wade played great defense on DeRozan in the fourth quarter, stopping him few times from easy baskets. Also Wade had a crucial assist to McDermont to set him up for uncontested 3 point shot (when Bulls were down 104-105).


All this and more...just Wades swag alone is worth every penny...Derrick had a leadership style that included alot of blinking, and Noah setting the tone for effort was huge, but the swagger of titles, fame, accolades, women, business, culture...Wade as a HOF player still has so much in his tank, and he speaks so accurately and professionally, its been just a pleasure to watch him effect our franchise, he's helping us turn a corner, truly...he cements everyone's roles right down to Zipster, the ballboys and the car valets...he's THAT good of an influence.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#283 » by Rerisen » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:35 pm

Stratmaster wrote:Yep. As someone who always has qualified Jimmy as a "borderline" superstar, his play the last few games has been "elite" superstar, not borderline. I was a little worried early last night. He was getting caught in the lane and committing turnovers trying to pass back out. He just diodn;t seem as sharp. I have to admit I was thinking "it's not going to be Jimmy's night to save us this time". But sure enough, Q4 rolls around and the guy starts leaping tall buildings in single bounds.

I was glad to see Niko and Doug hit a couple big shots. They missed a couple as well but kept shooting with confidence. Jimmy can't do this ever Q4 (can he?) and we need to know that those guys can step up, especially when Jimmy has already exerted all of that energy to carry the game into overtime.


He can't because he even admitted to being tired earlier in the week, but the team keeps throwing him the ball. Even Wade! A couple of those possessions I was thinking can't we start the ball with Wade in a PnR then get it back to Jimmy later.

Because remember, he's also guarding the opponents best player by this point usually (last night Lowry).

It is a good sign that Doug is getting much more active moving off ball, I think Niko still needs work here. It was only cuz Jimmy made a couple of super second efforts that Niko was able to get the ball in a scramble situation and hit a big dagger.

It's so obvious how the spacing of having 2 shooters helps Jimmy (and even Wade, to cut), but while this is an ideal setup offensively, we need to find a Doug or Niko that can also play better defense, and do a little more creative playmaking. Both of them out there really taxes our defense, they kept targeting Niko in the PnR.
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Re: AW: RE: Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#284 » by Mech Engineer » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:38 pm

Bomba Navarro wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Bomba Navarro wrote:Our go-to lineup should be something along the lines of Butler-Wade-McDermott-Mirotic-Gibson.


Defense is a problem in that lineup. I know it is unconventional and will not happen but I would try Jimmy, MCW, Doug, Niko and Taj.

Well, defense might be a problem but offensively it's a much better lineup than that one. MCW is a good defender, but unless you have him set the screen for Jimmy every time he's not going to give you anything at all off the ball on offense.


I think the problem is Jimmy has to spend extraordinary amounts of energy to guard guys like Lowry, Kyrie, Wall etc.. I think the Bulls need Jimmy's offense more than his defense and his defensive responsibilities can somewhat be shared but there is no one to share his offensive responsibilities. You don't want him gassed in the last few minutes.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#285 » by Ice Man » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:38 pm

Rerisen wrote:Even the good news is sort of iffy because most players who get as good as Jimmy don't have the same meteoric late career rise as he did.


A lot worse than sort of iffy, given Jimmy's almost-historic level of improvement. (Can you think of any 22 year old who has done better? JImmy's PER improvement from Year 1 to Year 6 is well ahead of Pippen's.)

Comparing a guy to Jimmy at the same age and projecting the same peak is kinda like saying, hey I'm 30 years old, have never held political office, am making peanuts, and nobody ever heard of me. I'm right where Barack Obama was at the same age -- I'm on track to be President!
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#286 » by Ice Man » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:39 pm

Stratmaster wrote: Fred shut it down about as quickly as he could after the proof of concept failed.


Fred shut it down really fast. His bosses spent money, gave him a well-publicized FA who has a ring and had been an All Star, and 30 games into the season the coach all but said, "You guys totally blew it, I can't use him at all."

Rondo would be playing 82 game this year with Thibs. Probably most NBA coaches.
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Re: AW: RE: Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#287 » by Rerisen » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:40 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:
Bomba Navarro wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Defense is a problem in that lineup. I know it is unconventional and will not happen but I would try Jimmy, MCW, Doug, Niko and Taj.

Well, defense might be a problem but offensively it's a much better lineup than that one. MCW is a good defender, but unless you have him set the screen for Jimmy every time he's not going to give you anything at all off the ball on offense.


I think the problem is Jimmy has to spend extraordinary amounts of energy to guard guys like Lowry, Kyrie, Wall etc.. I think the Bulls need Jimmy's offense more than his defense and his defensive responsibilities can somewhat be shared but there is no one to share his offensive responsibilities. You don't want him gassed in the last few minutes.


If MCW could shoot threes, multiple problems would solve instantly.

Bulls have to find this kind of player if we aren't rebuilding, even if we might have to trade a Doug or Niko, and add in a draft pick.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#288 » by Chi town » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:40 pm

Bomba Navarro wrote:Our go-to lineup should be something along the lines of Butler-Wade-McDermott-Mirotic-Gibson.


Yep!
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#289 » by Rerisen » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:43 pm

I think Wade has been a bit overly criticized lately, yeah his scoring and overall impact have waned a bit, but his IQ is pretty valuable late in games. Whenever he's not taking a wild shot, everything else he does, is a plus. He's smart off ball, steps up his defense late, is calm, and gives us another ballhandler that does have a fair shot at making something happen if forced to.

Also I think he's starting to now see the path to success is letting Jimmy be the man, and with Jimmy delivering like he is of late, Wade seems less tempted to try and play hero himself.

I also think Wade's off court mentorship of Jimmy has been positive toward Jimmy's 2nd most improved type ascension.

We should recall, Wade already graduated one superstar in LeBron in Miami. He's not new to the role of the superstar guru.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#290 » by CoreyVillains » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:45 pm

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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#291 » by Rerisen » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:46 pm

How is everyone liking the Butler/Doug high screen?

Fred used it repeatedly down the stretch. He's been experimenting a lot this year with what guys are setting the picks up top, but McDermott offers obvious strengths to doing it, if he sets a good one, really forces the opponent into a tough situation. Either Jimmy gets a mismatch, or they have to leave a great shooter wide open.

I do think Doug has to do better in getting his feet and form set for a quick shot, he still sometimes isn't in the best rhythm to shoot, but he's growing.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#292 » by Stratmaster » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:47 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Yep. As someone who always has qualified Jimmy as a "borderline" superstar, his play the last few games has been "elite" superstar, not borderline. I was a little worried early last night. He was getting caught in the lane and committing turnovers trying to pass back out. He just diodn;t seem as sharp. I have to admit I was thinking "it's not going to be Jimmy's night to save us this time". But sure enough, Q4 rolls around and the guy starts leaping tall buildings in single bounds.

I was glad to see Niko and Doug hit a couple big shots. They missed a couple as well but kept shooting with confidence. Jimmy can't do this ever Q4 (can he?) and we need to know that those guys can step up, especially when Jimmy has already exerted all of that energy to carry the game into overtime.


He can't because he even admitted to being tired earlier in the week, but the team keeps throwing him the ball. Even Wade! A couple of those possessions I was thinking can't we start the ball with Wade in a PnR then get it back to Jimmy later.

Because remember, he's also guarding the opponents best player by this point usually (last night Lowry).

It is a good sign that Doug is getting much more active moving off ball, I think Niko still needs work here. It was only cuz Jimmy made a couple of super second efforts that Niko was able to get the ball in a scramble situation and hit a big dagger.

It's so obvious how the spacing of having 2 shooters helps Jimmy (and even Wade, to cut), but while this is an ideal setup offensively, we need to find a Doug or Niko that can also play better defense, and do a little more creative playmaking. Both of them out there really taxes our defense, they kept targeting Niko in the PnR.


Agree. I am more encouraged by Doug recently, less so Niko. Niko just doesn't seem to be able to find his role. I will say that Niko seems to make at least one good defensive play in crunch time. He was responsible for a turnover last night that the announcers kept crediting Wade for (because after Niko knocked the ball away Wade corralled it). Overall though his defense was poor.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#293 » by RememberLu » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:48 pm

I thought it was interesting that Fred went with a no-PG lineup in crunch time. Especially since MCW has been playing so well for us, esp. on the defensive end.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#294 » by kurtatx » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:51 pm

Ice Man wrote:
Stratmaster wrote: Fred shut it down about as quickly as he could after the proof of concept failed.


Fred shut it down really fast. His bosses spent money, gave him a well-publicized FA who has a ring and had been an All Star, and 30 games into the season the coach all but said, "You guys totally blew it, I can't use him at all."

Rondo would be playing 82 game this year with Thibs. Probably most NBA coaches.

I'm not sure he would. He doesn't play defense anymore and he offers little to nothing on offense because you don't have to guard a player who can't shoot on the perimeter.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#295 » by Stratmaster » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:54 pm

kdapiton wrote:We really need one good trade to bring in someone to help Jimmy. Don't know what it is. But man, we need some pieces. Aaaggggh so frustrating seeing this and knowing we're still a mediocre team at best. Bittersweet


It will be interesting to see if the Bulls can find an upgrade before the trade deadline. There is very little that separates #2 from #8 in the East right now. An upgrade by the trade deadline, and one significant add in the off-season, and the Bulls could be right back in the mix.

Contrary to others approach, I think the Bulls need to win as many games as they can and hopefully win at least one round in the playoffs. If they show they are close they have a lot better chance of luring the right player in the off-season.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#296 » by molepharmer » Sun Jan 8, 2017 3:59 pm

RememberLu wrote:I thought it was interesting that Fred went with a no-PG lineup in crunch time. Especially since MCW has been playing so well for us, esp. on the defensive end.

Fred's an advocate of having multiple ball handlers over the traditional PG. This is not new and it's what worked best last night. It was also one of the reasons for drafting Valentine.
TGibson (1/28/17); "..."a 4 or 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 for drama"...What's the worst? "...yelling matches with Thibs, everybody is just going crazy and I'm just sitting there...like, 'Don't call my name please..."
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#297 » by Stratmaster » Sun Jan 8, 2017 4:00 pm

RedBulls83 wrote:It's a damn shame Jimmy doesn't have more fan votes for the all-star game.


Jimmy will make the ASG, but I wish he wouldn't. With the load he is carrying I would love to see him chilling and resting during the all-star break. Not to mention that the chip it would put on Jimmy's shoulders if he was shunned would likely cause him to explode to yet another level lol
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#298 » by Mech Engineer » Sun Jan 8, 2017 4:01 pm

Rerisen wrote:How is everyone liking the Butler/Doug high screen?

Fred used it repeatedly down the stretch. He's been experimenting a lot this year with what guys are setting the picks up top, but McDermott offers obvious strengths to doing it, if he sets a good one, really forces the opponent into a tough situation. Either Jimmy gets a mismatch, or they have to leave a great shooter wide open.

I do think Doug has to do better in getting his feet and form set for a quick shot, he still sometimes isn't in the best rhythm to shoot, but he's growing.


I like to see some Niko and Jimmy screen and roll with Jimmy screening. Niko is way more confident in his decisions even if it's bad compared to Doug. Doug is too unsure.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#299 » by Bulls03 » Sun Jan 8, 2017 4:03 pm

Ichimoku wrote:
Bulls03 wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Wade only did 2 good things in this game

1. The cut to the basket for the dunk when Jimmy drew all the attention

2. Making sure the ball was in Jimmy's hands at the end

Other than that he is getting worse as the season goes on, where is that guy from the first few weeks of the season?


He played great defense in the 4th and OT and had a huge block on DD. 20-4-7 but shot bad.

I think he's effected most by the lack of spacing with the starters. We should start Niko and see if that helps him. We need him shooting around 46-48% from the field.

Exactly ! Wade played great defense on DeRozan in the fourth quarter, stopping him few times from easy baskets. Also Wade had a crucial assist to McDermont to set him up for uncontested 3 point shot (when Bulls were down 104-105).


Yes, Wades shot was off but his playmaking was really good to end this game.
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Re: PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!! 

Post#300 » by Ice Man » Sun Jan 8, 2017 4:05 pm

kurtatx wrote:I'm not sure he would. He doesn't play defense anymore and he offers little to nothing on offense because you don't have to guard a player who can't shoot on the perimeter.


The next veteran Thibs benches will be his first, never mind burying the guy completely. Well he did at the end of Rip's tenure, but that was after Rip made the decision for him by getting hurt for 2 months.

In 5 years, Thibs never made a lineup call for the Bulls, except for deciding in Year 1 that Bogans would start over Brewer and Korver. Everything else, he just played guys according to their paychecks. The highest paid guys start, the lower paid, less experienced guys come off the bench.

I would trust Fred over Thibs for making the tough calls. On game tactics, training, development, motivation ... nope. But I wouldn't give 25 cents for Thibs's ability to deal with fading veterans.

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