Official Speculation Thread 2016 Volume VII - Defense Wins Championships

[j-ragg]

lol guy brings stats, B&W brings opinion and passes off as facts. Then scoffs as if his opinion is soooo obvious.

[pepe1991]

Brook Lopez and Cousins indeed shoot 3s and post up.
Vučević takes : 22,1% shots from 0-3 feet range (what would you consider deep postups)
26,5% from 3-10 feet, what would you consider post up ,but it can also be close "mid range"
6% of Vučević total shots are 3 point shots

So, as you can see, over 40% of Vučević shots are long 2s . Shot that advanced stats view as worst shots you can take.

So saying that he plays in post and shoot 3s is myth because most of the time he just sleeps 15 feet from basket, waiting for another fadeaway jumper.

I don't even know why I'm responding to the likes of you. But like I said. Vuc can post up and shoot threes and is currently defending very well. Again He's more valuable than biz as this team is currently constructed. Learn some reading comprehension before you try and debate me.

Sent from my D6708 using RealGM mobile app

McGee aslo can shoot 3s. In 2013 he was 1 from 1 from 3 point line .What a killer. Why people even think Curry is best shooter when McGee finished season on 100% for 3 ??

Vučević made 16 threes in 359 games in his career. That's 0,04 trees per game. If that means he can shoot them, good for you.

I have no will to debate you because you pass on fact and only focus on personal opinion that you treat like fact.
So you argue Vučević is better than Biyombo? Sure, he is, for whatever it's worth. I actually agree with you on that. However, arguing who is better between them feels like arguing who is better , Monta Elise or Brandon Jennings. They both sucks. Biyombo is overpayed backup payed starters money, Vučević is having second worst season in his career, and sure he can give you some counting stats, but his efficiency is so bad that you can argue that he should cut his volumen in half to help a team.
Vučević is also backup on good team.
Conclusion: Vučević is better basketball player than Biyombo, however both o them should have been backups.

[OrlandO]

It's on Vogel to get Vuc out to the 3pt line. It's obvious he can make the shot from the very top of the arc and we can get him that shot any time. When you got a bunch of centers taking and hitting them respectably now there is no excuse not to explore it with one of the better jump shooting bigs in the league.

[PennytoShaq]

Yeah, we've got Ibaka who's one of the top 3pt shooting 4's in the league, and we've got Vuc who can hit the 3, and we still don't run an excess of 4 out 1 in plays. So why do you think moving AG to the 4 will make any kind of difference?

Why are you (and a lot of others) so insistent on AG playing the 4? AG works the mismatches now, as a 3, far better than he could as a 4. He's able to overpower a lot of 2's and 3's depending on who he gets on switches, and he can post them up and get himself closer to the rim. He can't post up 4's because he's not strong enough. He's likely not ready to be taking 4's off the dribble because he's still developing and only just getting that aspect of his game under control. Plus, if we play more teams that play more small-ball 4's, then they're likely to be faster 4's that will be able to keep up with him.

If you want a wing who can create his own shot, then do it at the expense of the wing who's currently supposed to be doing that but isn't achieving it. That's why I say trade Fournier if that's what you want to do. You don't put AG out of position (and by now I'd have thought it was becoming clearer that the 3 is the position that AG can truly thrive in) when he has so much more room for growth and development, in favour of... I don't even know what it's in favour of? Is it just following trends and keeping up with the Jones'? Why are you so attached to small ball? Because GSW and CLE do it, with teams with far superior players than ours? You think someone like Gallinari puts us anywhere near their level?

Again, Vogel seems like a guy who likes traditional lineups, so if we made moves how likely is he to even adopt more small ball?

Wait ,what? Vučević CAN make a three?
Dude made 16 threes in 6 years. This year he is 9 of 29 from 3 point line. That's bearly reaching 30% mark. He can't even shoot free trows properly this year ( 59% ).
Just because he is swimming around 30% at 3 point line it doesn't mean he SHOULD shoot more because league average from 3 point line is freaking 35% so he isn't even close to that. Sure , not big sample size, but his cumulative sample size for whole career is 16-55 (29% )

Aaron at PF could rebound more than Ibaka ( based on rebounding ratio ), he also would save Magic from playing BIyombo and Vučević together who are awful pair together on the floor. Also Gordon at PF would finally push Green out of that position ,where he can't rebound, block, pass or do anything well enough.
Gordon at PF is MODERN basketball, 6'9 versatile big who can shoot ( hopeful ) , slash and pass. At PF ,with expended range he could attack rim even more because slower PFs now would have to contest his shots and leave paint, them leaving paint would open game not just for Gordon who could beat them off dribble for dunks and layups but it would also help other teammates to get at rim.
Biggest problem with this horrific offense is that nobody can't get to free trow line and attack rim in general because all 3 Magic offensive options ( Evan, Vuc, Ibaka ) just settle for long 2s most of the time (especially Ibaka who showed zero slashing skills and who is so awkward running with a ball ).

In perfect world Ibaka would take some of his playing time at C, Gordon would start at PF ,team would have somebody who can slash and shoot 3s at SF , Evan at PF and Payton ( or whoever ) at PG. Vučević from bench. However, because of Biyombo and Green who play only because of their salary team is forced to play 2 bigs together and push Gordon att SF.

In hottest games from Gordon what he did that he couldn't do at PF? Step back jumpers? Shooting 3s? Attacking the rim? All that things you can do at PF even better because your opponents are heavier, bigger and slower than at SF where wing players tend to be lean , more athletic and contest much more shots ( wing position is stuffed with great defenders, at PF most PFs are actually average defenders)

Zzzzz...this topic is getting sleepy. There are plenty of examples of players playing the 3 and 4 depending on lineup and matchups. i.e. Lebron James. Just leave it at that, AG will play both. There is a current benefit in him further developing his handles and passing abilities, but of course he will play pf in certain matchups/ lineups and as his career evolves and he gains more and more weight.

Agree, but the reason people get salty over it is because they think too positionally. Gordon's game is his game. It will be the same regardless if the Magic put a scoring SF next to him or not.

You get a guy like Gallinari here who can crossmatch on a PF or SF, and shoots the lights out and Gordon only gets better.

[rcklsscognition]

There are not many fixes out there on the market. These are stretching the limits of possibility but could work for us.

Fix A: Fix our lack of solid pick and roll game. Open up Serge for more open 3s, squeeze 8-10ppg out of Biyombo on rolls.

Acquire Bledsoe, Jeremy Lin, Lou Williams, run EP off the bench. One potential issue with our offense is our lack of pick and roll. It hasn't gotten much better. EP couldn't run the play with Frye, one of the best in the league, and he hasn't been able to produce with anyone on our team this year either. Moving a Bledsoe or Lin or Lou Williams type into that roll would produce a solid offense on the cheap. We should be getting Serge much better looks all game long.

Fix B: Fix our lack of wing help and defense. Switch AG between SF/PF, allow Ibaka to play 5 on some nights. Despite looking good individually, AG still needs work and time defensively. Bring in another defender to help lessen the load.

Acquire Jae Crowder, Thabo Sefelosha, Terrence Ross, or Rudy Gay.

Fix C: Move Ibaka and Biyombo to the 5.

Acquire Paul Millsap.

[PrimeThyme]

The defense is still the thing that concerns me about this team. Vogel + elite rim protection + expected perimeter defense hasn't produced the results this team expected. We knew this team would be bad on offense. But missing their internal goal of top 5 defense is what really bugs me. AG at the 3 vs 4 is really not the overbearing issue on this team.

Absolutely. This team is just not built to outscore opponents. They will win very few games this year if they don't tighten back up on defense. With Vogel and defenders we have on this roster I have to think it will improve again at some point though.

[djhunkyherbs]

The defense is still the thing that concerns me about this team. Vogel + elite rim protection + expected perimeter defense hasn't produced the results this team expected. We knew this team would be bad on offense. But missing their internal goal of top 5 defense is what really bugs me. AG at the 3 vs 4 is really not the overbearing issue on this team.

Completely agree. I thought that with Serge, Biz, and Vogel coming in that the defense would at least be very good and maybe even elite, but truthfully it's been mediocre at best so far. I'm willing to give Vogel some time, but it's worrisome that the defense really hasn't gotten much better as the season has progressed and almost half the season is over.

[PrimeThyme]

I see a lot of people on here wanting to trade for a SF. What I don't think they consider is what that would mean for AG. With everything we gave up for serge we are not trading him && he has played so few minutes at C this year that there is no way he is starting at C either. This means that AG would be going to the bench if we traded for one of these SF's on the market right now.

AG is blossoming right in front of our eyes. Every move we make from now on should be putting AG in better positions not reducing him to a bench role or taking minutes from him. Management needs to think about the long term impact AG could have for this franchise. We don't need to look for a quick fix at SF.

[JF5]

I see a lot of people on here wanting to trade for a SF. What I don't think they consider is what that would mean for AG. With everything we gave up for serge we are not trading him && he has played so few minutes at C this year that there is no way he is starting at C either. This means that AG would be going to the bench if we traded for one of these SF's on the market right now.

AG is blossoming right in front of our eyes. Every move we make from now on should be putting AG in better positions not reducing him to a bench role or taking minutes from him. Management needs to think about the long term impact AG could have for this franchise. We don't need to look for a quick fix at SF.

People just want to win... AG is playing better but the consensus is still that he'd be more deadly at the 4.

Though I do agree that the team really isn't going anywhere so they might as well just keep on trying to develop him a the 3 at this point.

[OrlandoDream]

I see a lot of people on here wanting to trade for a SF. What I don't think they consider is what that would mean for AG. With everything we gave up for serge we are not trading him && he has played so few minutes at C this year that there is no way he is starting at C either. This means that AG would be going to the bench if we traded for one of these SF's on the market right now.

AG is blossoming right in front of our eyes. Every move we make from now on should be putting AG in better positions not reducing him to a bench role or taking minutes from him. Management needs to think about the long term impact AG could have for this franchise. We don't need to look for a quick fix at SF.

Maybe the FO is looking for a SF off and the bench since our current one is awful? Since we refuse to play Mario, going after an expiring like Gallo might not be a bad idea. I would love Wilson Chandler but he is going to cost us a young guy and/or the 17.

Our focus going forward should be to put players that complement AG. He is starting the year off like we hoped and by the end of the season could be our guy. By next year? We're going to expect bigger things for him. Trading him at this point where he is blossoming after putting so much time and money in him would be stupid.

As of today, the problems I see with this team that we need to fix is our backcourt defense, PG inconsistency, and bench help. Also think it's time to start Vuc again. Biz is clearly playing injured. He has not been the same since his shoulder got busted. I admire his heart and toughness but we need him at that 100% form that got him the SL job.

I would try to trade some expiring in Green, Meeks and filler for a decent bench SG/SF. Maybe someone like Barton?

[Dennis Reynolds]

Ok so now you are moving the goalposts again. Before Oladipo was better than Evan at everything "besides shooting". I debunked that.

So now we are at the last chasm of hope - the good ol plus minus net rating. Man, those are fun. Never mind that Fournier played out of position last year and guarded guys a lot bigger than him most of the year and that this year Oladipo plays with an absolute god who carries OKC on his back (they are terrible without him - stunner).

Also I never said we would just get an All-star SF and he wold guard the best opposing wing. Never said that. Your arguments are so poorly constructed sometimes. I suggested Gallinari to crossmatch and guard PFs (since you know, most are his size now) and let Gordon guard the best wing. At this point you are just pulling stuff out of thin air just to try and make a counterargument.

I meant to say scoring but said shooting. Big difference.

Fournier can't guard anyone as a full time 2 as well. He's simply a bad defender.

Gallinari most certainly isn's an all star SF. Having him as your number 1 option isn't much better than having Fournier. We need real difference makes. Not to mention we won't have any cap space if we sing both Gallinari and Ibaka. Ibaka also won't play full time which means Gordon wont't play much so your idea isn't any good.

Ok so you meant to say shooting. Yet I already debunked that. Evan is better at Passing, finishing at the rim, drawing fouls and making FTs (which not all shooters are good at). Additionally while he is not a great defender, neither is Oladipo. As much as you underrate Evan and state that he's "simply a bad defender" (which Skiles and Vogel disagree with), we could easily say Oladipo is overrated there as well.

Additionally you constantly complain and have zero real suggestions for improving the team. Yes with Gallo here we would not have cap space. But if it works for us, who cares?

Let me know where our superstar is coming from. Id like to hear this one. A high draft pick is no guarantee for anyone anymore. You cant bring that up and then in the next post complain about Minnesota being bad. I know you must be smarter than that, right?

I don't have a solution to fix our team and the future doesn't look bright at all. That's why I'm pissed.

I remember Skiles calling Dipo an elite defender last season and if that's what you're going for than yes, he's overrated. Dipo is a good defender while Fournier is a bad one. I agree Fournier's a better scorer even though I think Dipo still has time to surpass him but Fournier isn't a better passer. No way.

[woosah]

dang we are in a pickle.

Biz making 17 mil will make us pay a max to Serge. Paying 17 to a guy not producing in a big way will make you have to pay a guy who is producing, even if the production is not all star level. If we don't pay Serge, we are heels. If we do we are fools. We will have 35 to 40 mil tied up in 2 players who are not franchise players.

We could go after Milsap again but he will command the same thing and is older. He also wants to play for a winning team, so we are still not likely to sign him.

We still need wing help so once we fix that^ we will still be in need. smh.

the struggle is real

[Dennis Reynolds]

^^That's exactly why I'm pissed.

[PennytoShaq]

I meant to say scoring but said shooting. Big difference.

Fournier can't guard anyone as a full time 2 as well. He's simply a bad defender.

Gallinari most certainly isn's an all star SF. Having him as your number 1 option isn't much better than having Fournier. We need real difference makes. Not to mention we won't have any cap space if we sing both Gallinari and Ibaka. Ibaka also won't play full time which means Gordon wont't play much so your idea isn't any good.

Ok so you meant to say shooting. Yet I already debunked that. Evan is better at Passing, finishing at the rim, drawing fouls and making FTs (which not all shooters are good at). Additionally while he is not a great defender, neither is Oladipo. As much as you underrate Evan and state that he's "simply a bad defender" (which Skiles and Vogel disagree with), we could easily say Oladipo is overrated there as well.

Additionally you constantly complain and have zero real suggestions for improving the team. Yes with Gallo here we would not have cap space. But if it works for us, who cares?

Let me know where our superstar is coming from. Id like to hear this one. A high draft pick is no guarantee for anyone anymore. You cant bring that up and then in the next post complain about Minnesota being bad. I know you must be smarter than that, right?

I don't have a solution to fix our team and the future doesn't look bright at all. That's why I'm pissed.

I remember Skiles calling Dipo an elite defender last season and if that's what you're going for than yes, he's overrated. Dipo is a good defender while Fournier is a bad one. I agree Fournier's a better scorer even though I think Dipo still has time to surpass him but Fournier isn't a better passer. No way.

For being a hybrid PG/SG you would expect Oladipo to have higher APG, but he still can't. Fournier has better court vision, but because he hogs the ball sometimes and does play selfish at times it is easy to get caught up in that and miss what he does well.

He makes very nice passes off of dribble penetration and can run a two man pick and roll, which is something that Oladipo could never do very well and apparently still doesn't.

Evan is absolutely a better passer and the numbers prove it. He is being asked to play a role that you don't like. You also think the team has no future, yet you come here and post that in a thread called POSITIVITY (EDIT -it's not, I am an idiot)

[BudLightTwerk]

You guys need to get your facts right.

Biyombo's contract is $72million for four years.

72/4= 18 million

He will make an average of 18 million over his contract.

That doesn't tie our hands in the slightest because of the cap jump. However, a bloated 100M+ contract for Serge will.

[Dennis Reynolds]

Ok so you meant to say shooting. Yet I already debunked that. Evan is better at Passing, finishing at the rim, drawing fouls and making FTs (which not all shooters are good at). Additionally while he is not a great defender, neither is Oladipo. As much as you underrate Evan and state that he's "simply a bad defender" (which Skiles and Vogel disagree with), we could easily say Oladipo is overrated there as well.

Additionally you constantly complain and have zero real suggestions for improving the team. Yes with Gallo here we would not have cap space. But if it works for us, who cares?

Let me know where our superstar is coming from. Id like to hear this one. A high draft pick is no guarantee for anyone anymore. You cant bring that up and then in the next post complain about Minnesota being bad. I know you must be smarter than that, right?

I don't have a solution to fix our team and the future doesn't look bright at all. That's why I'm pissed.

I remember Skiles calling Dipo an elite defender last season and if that's what you're going for than yes, he's overrated. Dipo is a good defender while Fournier is a bad one. I agree Fournier's a better scorer even though I think Dipo still has time to surpass him but Fournier isn't a better passer. No way.

For being a hybrid PG/SG you would expect Oladipo to have higher APG, but he still can't. Fournier has better court vision, but because he hogs the ball sometimes and does play selfish at times it is easy to get caught up in that and miss what he does well.

He makes very nice passes off of dribble penetration and can run a two man pick and roll, which is something that Oladipo could never do very well and apparently still doesn't.

Evan is absolutely a better passer and the numbers prove it. He is being asked to play a role that you don't like. You also think the team has no future, yet you come here and post that in a thread called POSITIVITY.

I was talking about Gordon and then you mentioned Fournier. I didn't start talking about him on my own.

Dipo had much better passing numbers last season with Fournier here. Now his role is completely different and his assists are down. Dipo is still a better passer.

[JF5]

dang we are in a pickle.

Biz making 17 mil will make us pay a max to Serge. Paying 17 to a guy not producing in a big way will make you have to pay a guy who is producing, even if the production is not all star level. If we don't pay Serge, we are heels. If we do we are fools. We will have 35 to 40 mil tied up in 2 players who are not franchise players.

We could go after Milsap again but he will command the same thing and is older. He also wants to play for a winning team, so we are still not likely to sign him.

We still need wing help so once we fix that^ we will still be in need. smh.

the struggle is real

I would deal Biyombo for Noel...

[PennytoShaq]

I don't have a solution to fix our team and the future doesn't look bright at all. That's why I'm pissed.

I remember Skiles calling Dipo an elite defender last season and if that's what you're going for than yes, he's overrated. Dipo is a good defender while Fournier is a bad one. I agree Fournier's a better scorer even though I think Dipo still has time to surpass him but Fournier isn't a better passer. No way.

For being a hybrid PG/SG you would expect Oladipo to have higher APG, but he still can't. Fournier has better court vision, but because he hogs the ball sometimes and does play selfish at times it is easy to get caught up in that and miss what he does well.

He makes very nice passes off of dribble penetration and can run a two man pick and roll, which is something that Oladipo could never do very well and apparently still doesn't.

Evan is absolutely a better passer and the numbers prove it. He is being asked to play a role that you don't like. You also think the team has no future, yet you come here and post that in a thread called POSITIVITY.

I was talking about Gordon and then you mentioned Fournier. I didn't start talking about him on my own.

Dipo had much better passing numbers last season with Fournier here. Now his role is completely different and his assists are down. Dipo is still a better passer.

I'll just post this again - Oladipo plays SG AND PG in OKC and still averages one less APG than Evan.

I keep thinking this is the positivity thread. It's not. I'll remember at some point. It's the exact same debate on like 3 threads so it's slightly confusing.

[PrimeThyme]

I see a lot of people on here wanting to trade for a SF. What I don't think they consider is what that would mean for AG. With everything we gave up for serge we are not trading him && he has played so few minutes at C this year that there is no way he is starting at C either. This means that AG would be going to the bench if we traded for one of these SF's on the market right now.

AG is blossoming right in front of our eyes. Every move we make from now on should be putting AG in better positions not reducing him to a bench role or taking minutes from him. Management needs to think about the long term impact AG could have for this franchise. We don't need to look for a quick fix at SF.

Maybe the FO is looking for a SF off and the bench since our current one is awful? Since we refuse to play Mario, going after an expiring like Gallo might not be a bad idea. I would love Wilson Chandler but he is going to cost us a young guy and/or the 17.

Our focus going forward should be to put players that complement AG. He is starting the year off like we hoped and by the end of the season could be our guy. By next year? We're going to expect bigger things for him. Trading him at this point where he is blossoming after putting so much time and money in him would be stupid.

As of today, the problems I see with this team that we need to fix is our backcourt defense, PG inconsistency, and bench help. Also think it's time to start Vuc again. Biz is clearly playing injured. He has not been the same since his shoulder got busted. I admire his heart and toughness but we need him at that 100% form that got him the SL job.

I would try to trade some expiring in Green, Meeks and filler for a decent bench SG/SF. Maybe someone like Barton?

Anything that gets Jeff green off the team and gets us a better back up SF I'm all for. As long as it's a clear backup though. Anything that eats into AG's minutes or reduces his role I think we should avoid.

[Jameerthefear]

dang we are in a pickle.

Biz making 17 mil will make us pay a max to Serge. Paying 17 to a guy not producing in a big way will make you have to pay a guy who is producing, even if the production is not all star level. If we don't pay Serge, we are heels. If we do we are fools. We will have 35 to 40 mil tied up in 2 players who are not franchise players.

We could go after Milsap again but he will command the same thing and is older. He also wants to play for a winning team, so we are still not likely to sign him.

We still need wing help so once we fix that^ we will still be in need. smh.

the struggle is real

I said this the second we traded for Ibaka. The best case scenario when the trade went down is that we re-sign him for nearly 30m/yr. We'll top out as a mediocre team. We'll be like the Atlanta Hawks except we won't make the playoffs.