PG: Raptors, Jimmy Butler is your FATHER!!!

[Bulls03]

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Wade this year. That's very solid for someone about to be 35.

[TyrusRose2425]

From the Raps' board -

The only time I go to another teams post game thread is when we play the Raptors. I'm not laughing at them, I'm laughing with them. Funny bunch.

[Axxo]

We need Millsap!

We need Ibaka.

We need Boogie

We need Anthony Davis

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[DASMACKDOWN]

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[RedBulls23]

From the Raps' board -

The only time I go to another teams post game thread is when we play the Raptors. I'm not laughing at them, I'm laughing with them. Funny bunch.

They really are good sports over there.

[BloodyQ]

We have Jimmy, they don't.

That's what the trade Jimmy crowd needs to read over and over. Because that's what you'll be saying when we lose to Jimmy type players without him.

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We are 8th in the Eastern Conference, they are still #2.

That's what the don't trade Jimmy crowd needs to read over and over. This team isn't contending for a championship anytime soon....trade him now with an offer we can't refuse, rebuild, and we will be the ones on top of the conference standings in due time.

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If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

[RedBulls23]

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Very odd as it seems like most of the time both Wade and Butler are on the court McD just stands in the corner, last night being the exception.

Not really odd at all. Doug gives Wade and Butler spacing, because his guy doesn't want to generally leave Doug wide open.

[Stratmaster]

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Very odd as it seems like most of the time both Wade and Butler are on the court McD just stands in the corner, last night being the exception.

Not really odd at all. Doug gives Wade and Butler spacing, because his guy doesn't want to generally leave Doug wide open.

I get that. It just seems like things flow better when McD is on the court with either/or Wade and Butler rather than both. Still...numbers are numbers. I'm not debating it; just didn't match my perception.

[RememberLu]

I thought it was interesting that Fred went with a no-PG lineup in crunch time. Especially since MCW has been playing so well for us, esp. on the defensive end.

It's been the obvious line up move since preseason. Wade and Jimmy need to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. Surrounding them with shooters is obvious.

Yeah, it's just interesting to me because MCW is (imo) such a big factor especially with his defensive prowess. If the Bulls are trying to make MCW their starting PG then I don't know what it says if they're benching him at the end of games.

Can MCW be our long term starter? What exactly is his role long-term on this team?

[Stratmaster]

We have Jimmy, they don't.

That's what the trade Jimmy crowd needs to read over and over. Because that's what you'll be saying when we lose to Jimmy type players without him.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

We are 8th in the Eastern Conference, they are still #2.

That's what the don't trade Jimmy crowd needs to read over and over. This team isn't contending for a championship anytime soon....trade him now with an offer we can't refuse, rebuild, and we will be the ones on top of the conference standings in due time.

Sent from my T-Mobile Sidekick 4G using Tapatalk

If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

Even right now, I think the seedings are pretty meaningless. I don't see any real differentiation between the 4-8 seeds. The Celts have put a small amount of space between them and #4 by winning 4 in a row, but 3 of them were against bad teams. Then you have Toronto who obviously doesn't scare the Bulls at all. It is pretty wide open after the Cavs.

What we are seeing is the top 8 in the east starting to separate themselves from the bottom 8.

[MC3]

I thought it was interesting that Fred went with a no-PG lineup in crunch time. Especially since MCW has been playing so well for us, esp. on the defensive end.

It's been the obvious line up move since preseason. Wade and Jimmy need to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. Surrounding them with shooters is obvious.

Yeah, it's just interesting to me because MCW is (imo) such a big factor especially with his defensive prowess. If the Bulls are trying to make MCW their starting PG then I don't know what it says if they're benching him at the end of games.

Can MCW be our long term starter? What exactly is his role long-term on this team?

Depends how big offer he gets in FA this summer. That will tell us about his long term role. If Bulls can keep him for cheap and on long term contract, they might try to develop him into starting PG (depends if we do not pick PG on the draft) or backup PG (if we pick PG on the draft and/or guy like Cp3 or Holiday come here).

[RedBulls23]

In general, you are correct. Jimmy is probably not a "best player on a title team" type superstar.

Let's just be honest though. There have been 20 or so humans in history who fit that bill at their very peak. That's the bar you are setting. Guys like GA, KAT, etc. aren't it either. Unless you have a good plan for getting the next Lebron, Kobe, MJ, etc. then what do you do?

Jimmy is a classic second tier guy. Those guys generally only win with a great roster around them and fantastic coaching.

I don't disagree, although I would include Westbrook, Harden and Leonard in that conversation with Curry, Durant, and Lebron. Chris Paul and Anthony Davis I think a case could be made as well, even though neither of them have had much playoff success.

I think the word "Superstar" is definitely thrown around a little too loosely, in my opinion. There are only a small handful of players that fit that category every year. Guys like Lebron and MJ are in a category all by themselves, whatever that one would be.

The truth is that its hard to have any type of label or category for NBA players. There aren't clearly defined groups. You have a bell curve continuous distribution of players with most people fitting in the below average category. Beyond that, each player has his own strengths and weaknesses.

At the end of the day, the better your best player is, the less talent you need around them to win. Jimmy needs more talent around him than Lebron to win a title. I agree with your comment about Giannis. That guy is an absolute beast and likely needs less talent around him than Butler to win.

Regardless, you have to ask yourself if its possible for Chicago to build a team around Jimmy. The window is relatively short and they don't have many assets. Beyond that, the front office hasn't shown a proclivity for genius upgrade trades and ownership won't go deep into the tax line like Cleveland will.

IMHO, the argument for dumping Jimmy has more to do with Chicago management than it does about Jimmy himself.

If you look, Jimmy's on court performance looks a lot like Wade from his 2006 title year particularly without Rondo. He is actually more productive than Dirk in his 10/11 title run. The question is, does anyone think the Bulls can pick up Shaq in his post prime? Kidd? Jason Terry?

I mean, Dwyane Wade would qualify as a Jason Kidd. Bulls FO HAS to start adding real long term pieces this off-season, and be aggressive. No more just getting the last scraps on 1 year deals like Rondo.

I think if you add a couple of quality pieces this off-season, and then keep adding to the team in the next year or two. Just like the Mavs did. Just keep building to get better, and not get complacent. They didn't make a title run from one off-season roster construction. It was worked on over a couple of years.

That's the real knock on the FO.

[CharityStripe34]

I'll quote Rerisen from another thread. Let Jimmy and Wade ride the season out with the young kids around them, see what they bring to the table with consistent (and important) minutes. Try somehow to turn Lopez and Rondo into an athletic player (either F or PG) who can make shots at a decent clip, and see what happens. At least then we can shed some salary and see what the young kids can develop into, leaving the team with flexibility this summer.

[Mech Engineer]

I thought it was interesting that Fred went with a no-PG lineup in crunch time. Especially since MCW has been playing so well for us, esp. on the defensive end.

It's been the obvious line up move since preseason. Wade and Jimmy need to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. Surrounding them with shooters is obvious.

Yeah, it's just interesting to me because MCW is (imo) such a big factor especially with his defensive prowess. If the Bulls are trying to make MCW their starting PG then I don't know what it says if they're benching him at the end of games.

Can MCW be our long term starter? What exactly is his role long-term on this team?

Unless MCW improves his jumpshot, his role will be limited. That said, he is not bad as Rondo. He can finish by driving if left open. Rondo couldn't shoot nor was quick enough to finish before a defender converged on him.

He is not a long term solution as a starter. And, Grant is too erratic to depend. Canaan fits the description but he couldn't execute on court. MCW gives the length to guard even some small forwards. That's the big advantage.

Honestly, there is no set answer and it is up to Fred to be alert and figure out whom to play at what time. It is a very fluid situation with this roster because it is flawed.

[Rerisen]

If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

Yep, the team rises and falls with Jimmy. When he started out great to begin the year we got up to +4 over .500.

Then he had a little dip for a month or so, and the team fell way back.

Sucks that we need him almost on a LeBron level to be a good team but seems that way.

Now if Jimmy could keep playing like this, and with Rondo out, few others could step up, Bulls could still end up fighting for that 2-4 seed area, but its a big uphill task.

[kurtatx]

Fred shut it down really fast. His bosses spent money, gave him a well-publicized FA who has a ring and had been an All Star, and 30 games into the season the coach all but said, "You guys totally blew it, I can't use him at all."

Rondo would be playing 82 game this year with Thibs. Probably most NBA coaches.

I'm not sure he would. He doesn't play defense anymore and he offers little to nothing on offense because you don't have to guard a player who can't shoot on the perimeter.

but the guy they replaced him with can't shoot on the perimeter either...

That may be true, but Rondo can't shoot anywhere. That's the problem, really. He's not an offensive threat.

[RedBulls23]

If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

Yep, the team rises and falls with Jimmy. When he started out great to begin the year we got up to +4 over .500.

Then he had a little dip for a month or so, and the team fell way back.

Sucks that we need him almost on a LeBron level to be a good team but seems that way.

Now if Jimmy could keep playing like this, and with Rondo out, few others could step up, Bulls could still end up fighting for that 2-4 seed area, but its a big uphill task.

I wouldn't say a month, but there was like a 6-7 game stance where he kind of hit a slump, and the Bulls lost like 5 of those games.

[Ice Man]

Now if Jimmy could keep playing like this, and with Rondo out, few others could step up, Bulls could still end up fighting for that 2-4 seed area, but its a big uphill task.

Odds are against this team making the playoffs. Jimmy has played 67, 65, and 67 games for the past 3 years. Pretty good chance he gets another 15 game ding, and the Bulls go 3-12 in his absence.

[Stratmaster]

If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

Yep, the team rises and falls with Jimmy. When he started out great to begin the year we got up to +4 over .500.

Then he had a little dip for a month or so, and the team fell way back.

Sucks that we need him almost on a LeBron level to be a good team but seems that way.

Now if Jimmy could keep playing like this, and with Rondo out, few others could step up, Bulls could still end up fighting for that 2-4 seed area, but its a big uphill task.

In my eyes, it really does come down to Niko and Doug, and primarily Niko. i say primarily Niko because even when Doug isn't "on" offensively he serves his role as a spacer and he seems to have begun, at least a little, to get a feel for Wade and Butler's game and his role within that. Niko on the other hand seems to just be plodding along with his same game without really fitting in and allowing the team to play better as a whole. It really, really perplexes me as it would seem that his offensive and rebounding skills should be a huge asset to this team, despite his weak defense. I...just...don't...get...it. Maybe he needs a sports shrink; or maybe Wade needs to turn his focus to being a Niko whisperer.

[CharityStripe34]

If Butler keeps on playing like this, they won't be #8 seed for long.

Losing to scrub teams won't be a habit anymore.

Yep, the team rises and falls with Jimmy. When he started out great to begin the year we got up to +4 over .500.

Then he had a little dip for a month or so, and the team fell way back.

Sucks that we need him almost on a LeBron level to be a good team but seems that way.

Now if Jimmy could keep playing like this, and with Rondo out, few others could step up, Bulls could still end up fighting for that 2-4 seed area, but its a big uphill task.

There's no excuse for them to stand pat at the deadline is there? I guess they could just go with Jimmy/Wade & the kids to ride out the season and sneak into the lottery again. I'm not a trade machine savant, but I bet there's some way we could perhaps package Lopez, Rondo and a pick or two for a good PG or an athletic wing.