2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[therealbig3]

LeBron is still the best player in the game, and the dirty little secret around the league: he really hasn't been that much worse than his peak self, other than coasting a little more for the RS. So you have peak-ish LeBron, leading a team with the 2nd best record in the league?

Yeah, I'm going with the guy in contention for GOAT who's still playing at the top of his game.

The Cavs haven't had the 2nd best record in the league for a little while now. San Antonio has it at 30-7 .811. Cleveland is 27-8 .771 with the Rockets on their heels at 30-9 .769.

My mistake.

[BallerTalk]

If it's just about numbers, Westbrook should win hands down.

But if it's about the best combination of production, impact, and team success (which it traditionally is), then LeBron, not Harden, is the best candidate.

Compared to Lebron, Harden has:
Better stats,
a better team record (Cavs have played fewer games),
in a stronger conference,
and with less all-star talent around him.

Not to mention Harden doesn't take nights off and has his team far exceeding most expectations.
I don't see anywhere Lebron (or anyone for that matter) has the edge on Harden so far this season.

[MisterHibachi]

If it's just about numbers, Westbrook should win hands down.

But if it's about the best combination of production, impact, and team success (which it traditionally is), then LeBron, not Harden, is the best candidate.

Compared to Lebron, Harden has:
Better stats,
a better team record (Cavs have played fewer games),
in a stronger conference,
and with less all-star talent around him.

Not to mention Harden doesn't take nights off and has his team far exceeding most expectations.
I don't see anywhere Lebron (or anyone for that matter) has the edge on Harden so far this season.

Better conference means nothing when the Cavs have played a tougher schedule. Realbig3 already talked about the stats in his last post. And his all-star talent seems to depend on him more than Harden's team does. And team record is decided by win percentage, not games played.

[Gil]

There's no argument for LeBron over Harden.

[BallerTalk]

If it's just about numbers, Westbrook should win hands down.

But if it's about the best combination of production, impact, and team success (which it traditionally is), then LeBron, not Harden, is the best candidate.

Compared to Lebron, Harden has:
Better stats,
a better team record (Cavs have played fewer games),
in a stronger conference,
and with less all-star talent around him.

Not to mention Harden doesn't take nights off and has his team far exceeding most expectations.
I don't see anywhere Lebron (or anyone for that matter) has the edge on Harden so far this season.

Better conference means nothing when the Cavs have played a tougher schedule. Realbig3 already talked about the stats in his last post. And his all-star talent seems to depend on him more than Harden's team does. And team record is decided by win percentage, not games played.

1) That "tougher schedule" claim has already been dismissed. It varies too greatly depending on the source and criteria, for instance the Cavs have played far more home games and far fewer B2B than the Rockets but some sources don't consider those factors.

2) A singular On/Off stat is as flawed a barometer as a singular +/- stat for gauging individual performance as they fail to account for lineup variances, such as when James, Love and Irving all sit.

3)The Rockets currently have three more wins and one more loss compared the Cavs. That would put them a game ahead if they were in the same conference. Again, the only reason Cleveland has a .002 percentage edge is because they have played the fewest games in the league at 35 before tonight.

Sorry, there is just no objective basis for picking Lebron over Harden for MVP at this point.

[MisterHibachi]

1) That "tougher schedule" claim has already been dismissed. It varies too greatly depending on the source and criteria, for instance the Cavs have played far more home games and far fewer B2B than the Rockets but some sources don't consider those factors.

The point is that Rockets playing in a "tougher schedule" means nothing.

2) A singular On/Off stat is as flawed a barometer as a singular +/- stat for gauging individual performance as they fail to account for lineup variances, such as when James, Love and Irving all sit.

NPI RAPM accounts for that, and LeBron is #1 in that. And that's not the only stat therealbig3 posted.

3)The Rockets currently have three more wins and one more loss compared the Cavs. That would put them a game ahead if they were in the same conference. Again, the only reason Cleveland has a .002 percentage edge is because they have played the fewest games in the league at 35 before tonight.

I don't think you understand how records work. The team with less losses is ranked ahead.

[BallerTalk]

The point is that Rockets playing in a "tougher schedule" means nothing.

NPI RAPM accounts for that, and LeBron is #1 in that. And that's not the only stat therealbig3 posted.

I don't think you understand how records work. The team with less losses is ranked ahead.

They play in a tougher conference and according to some sources have had a tougher schedule.
You can dismiss it if you choose, but that doesn't diminish the facts.

If you find solace in diminishing Lebron's teammates, so be it.
However, I doubt you'll find many willing to agree with the inference that Houston's roster sans Harden is more talented than Cleveland's roster sans Lebron.

In the league wide standings Cleveland is currently 3 games behind GS, 2 games behind San Antonio and 1 game behind Houston.
Should they win tonight they'll still be a half a game behind.
Disagree if you like, but again that doesn't change the facts.

The funny thing is we're talking about a Cleveland team that was expected to win nearly 60 games and lead their conference
playing catch up to a Houston team that many expected to be near .500.

How does that NOT make a helluva case for Harden?

[MisterHibachi]

The point is that Rockets playing in a "tougher schedule" means nothing.

NPI RAPM accounts for that, and LeBron is #1 in that. And that's not the only stat therealbig3 posted.

I don't think you understand how records work. The team with less losses is ranked ahead.

They play in a tougher conference and according to some sources have had a tougher schedule.
You can dismiss it if you choose, but that doesn't diminish the facts.

If you find solace in diminishing Lebron's teammates, so be it.
However, I doubt you'll find many willing to agree with the inference that Houston's roster sans Harden is more talented than Cleveland's roster sans Lebron.

In the league wide standings Cleveland is currently 3 games behind GS, 2 games behind San Antonio and 1 game behind Houston.
Should they win tonight they'll still be a half a game behind.
Disagree if you like, but again that doesn't change the facts.

The funny thing is we're talking about a Cleveland team that was expected to win nearly 60 games and lead their conference
playing catch up to a Houston team that many expected to be near .500.

How does that NOT make a helluva case for Harden?

It's not about diminishing teammates. LeBron's presence has had more impact on his team's score than Harden. Fact.

Cleveland has a better winning percentage than Houston. Fact.

[Impuniti]

There's no argument for LeBron over Harden.

Well the fair argument is Cavs with the better record which is a valid point throughout MVP years. Other than that, Harden is running with it.

[Triples333]

Wtf ru smoking lol...He would probably average way better stats than Harden, and have a better record. He would still be surrounded by shooters around him.

100% would not average better stats and I am not sure about the record either. Highly doubt it in fact. At 27 sure, not at 32.

James playing at like 60% rn and his stats are not that much off from Hardens lol..I think hes even shooting better 3pt% than him. On top of that hes a WAY better defender. All that talk about "Lebron is declining" is bs ..hes having one of his best statistical seasons at this age right now and hes on cruise control.

And he would be putting up 110% on the Rox? Lord. "60%" lol smh. I used to be somewhat of a bron homer myself if you can believe it, but this mentality is just annoying AND disrespectful to the true MVP performances.

[Triples333]

The point is that Rockets playing in a "tougher schedule" means nothing.

NPI RAPM accounts for that, and LeBron is #1 in that. And that's not the only stat therealbig3 posted.

I don't think you understand how records work. The team with less losses is ranked ahead.

They play in a tougher conference and according to some sources have had a tougher schedule.
You can dismiss it if you choose, but that doesn't diminish the facts.

If you find solace in diminishing Lebron's teammates, so be it.
However, I doubt you'll find many willing to agree with the inference that Houston's roster sans Harden is more talented than Cleveland's roster sans Lebron.

In the league wide standings Cleveland is currently 3 games behind GS, 2 games behind San Antonio and 1 game behind Houston.
Should they win tonight they'll still be a half a game behind.
Disagree if you like, but again that doesn't change the facts.

The funny thing is we're talking about a Cleveland team that was expected to win nearly 60 games and lead their conference
playing catch up to a Houston team that many expected to be near .500.

How does that NOT make a helluva case for Harden?

It's not about diminishing teammates. LeBron's presence has had more impact on his team's score than Harden. Fact.

Cleveland has a better winning percentage than Houston. Fact.

lmao now the NBA champions having a slightly better record than a team projected as a West 8 seed being used as an argument against Harden? You smell desperate, Bron stans.

[BallerTalk]

The point is that Rockets playing in a "tougher schedule" means nothing.

NPI RAPM accounts for that, and LeBron is #1 in that. And that's not the only stat therealbig3 posted.

I don't think you understand how records work. The team with less losses is ranked ahead.

They play in a tougher conference and according to some sources have had a tougher schedule.
You can dismiss it if you choose, but that doesn't diminish the facts.

If you find solace in diminishing Lebron's teammates, so be it.
However, I doubt you'll find many willing to agree with the inference that Houston's roster sans Harden is more talented than Cleveland's roster sans Lebron.

In the league wide standings Cleveland is currently 3 games behind GS, 2 games behind San Antonio and 1 game behind Houston.
Should they win tonight they'll still be a half a game behind.
Disagree if you like, but again that doesn't change the facts.

The funny thing is we're talking about a Cleveland team that was expected to win nearly 60 games and lead their conference
playing catch up to a Houston team that many expected to be near .500.

How does that NOT make a helluva case for Harden?

It's not about diminishing teammates. LeBron's presence has had more impact on his team's score than Harden. Fact.

Cleveland has a better winning percentage than Houston. Fact.

I applaud your dedication....facts be damned.

[MisterHibachi]

"Stans" and emojis. Can't argue against that ironclad rebuttal.

[Triples333]

"Stans" and emojis. Can't argue against that ironclad rebuttal.

Yes, disregard the substance and focus on us laughing at you. Probably for the best.

[INKtastic]

LeBron is still the best player in the game, and the dirty little secret around the league: he really hasn't been that much worse than his peak self, other than coasting a little more for the RS. So you have peak-ish LeBron, leading a team with the 2nd best record in the league?

Yeah, I'm going with the guy in contention for GOAT who's still playing at the top of his game.

The Cavs haven't had the 2nd best record in the league for a little while now. San Antonio has it at 30-7 .811. Cleveland is 27-8 .771 with the Rockets on their heels at 30-9 .769.

cavs are 28-5 in games LeBron plays (.848), 0-3 in games he doesn't play.

[MisterHibachi]

"Stans" and emojis. Can't argue against that ironclad rebuttal.

Yes, disregard the substance and focus on us laughing at you. Probably for the best.

Like your rebuttal that since Harden had no expectations on him pre-season he should be given a boost? Or pretending that Houston is higher in the ranking despite having more losses? Or pretending that Harden means more to his team when the numbers disprove it?

[K_chile22]

LeBron is still the best player in the game, and the dirty little secret around the league: he really hasn't been that much worse than his peak self, other than coasting a little more for the RS. So you have peak-ish LeBron, leading a team with the 2nd best record in the league?

Yeah, I'm going with the guy in contention for GOAT who's still playing at the top of his game.

The Cavs haven't had the 2nd best record in the league for a little while now. San Antonio has it at 30-7 .811. Cleveland is 27-8 .771 with the Rockets on their heels at 30-9 .769.

cavs are 28-5 in games LeBron plays (.848), 0-3 in games he doesn't play.

You don't get extra points for skipping games

[Triples333]

LeBron is still the best player in the game, and the dirty little secret around the league: he really hasn't been that much worse than his peak self, other than coasting a little more for the RS. So you have peak-ish LeBron, leading a team with the 2nd best record in the league?

Yeah, I'm going with the guy in contention for GOAT who's still playing at the top of his game.

The Cavs haven't had the 2nd best record in the league for a little while now. San Antonio has it at 30-7 .811. Cleveland is 27-8 .771 with the Rockets on their heels at 30-9 .769.

cavs are 28-5 in games LeBron plays (.848), 0-3 in games he doesn't play.

Lebron has sat all Cavs road b2bs. Context. That is a negative, NOT a positive.

[Rastas]

The Cavs haven't had the 2nd best record in the league for a little while now. San Antonio has it at 30-7 .811. Cleveland is 27-8 .771 with the Rockets on their heels at 30-9 .769.

cavs are 28-5 in games LeBron plays (.848), 0-3 in games he doesn't play.

Lebron has sat all Cavs road b2bs. Context. That is a negative, NOT a positive.

Dudes just letting the rest of the NBA think they have a chance.

[Triples333]

"Stans" and emojis. Can't argue against that ironclad rebuttal.

Yes, disregard the substance and focus on us laughing at you. Probably for the best.

Like your rebuttal that since Harden had no expectations on him pre-season he should be given a boost? Or pretending that Houston is higher in the ranking despite having more losses? Or pretending that Harden means more to his team when the numbers disprove it?

Yes man, a team projected as a 42 win 8 seed at best on pace for 58+ wins is significant. To not acknowledge that is just sad.