2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[Tritodian]

Lebron, I agree. Harden not so much. He's never had this inept an offense around him.

14-15 Rockets had 96.6 ORtg when Harden was off the court (2nd worst in the league.)

14-15 Houston minutes played ranking

1. James Harden
2. Trevor Ariza
3. Donatas Motiejunas
4. Patrick Beverley
5. Jason Terry
6. Corey Brewer

Harden's usage rate was 31.3% in that year.

Good call on the rating. After that, Westbrook's most played with players:

Adams
Roberson
Oladipo
Grant
Sabonis

So, of those Oladipo is the only one capable of any scoring at all. You could suggest he let them shoot, but there's a reason they don't. Most of them can't.

Edit: Also why are we comparing old Harden to this season's Westbrook at all. I thought Harden should have been MVP that year to begin with.

I'm saying OKC could be better off as a whole if Russ involved his teammates a little more in the game. Maybe it's on Donovan, but Russ regularly shooting 25-30 times in a game and dominating most of his team's assists is probably not the best strategy to go about winning. This "Russ has to do everything because he teammates suck" narrative is kind of misleading, because the case could be made for the opposite : If Westbrook trusted his teammates a little bit more, maybe they could become better players than they currently are right now. Great players elevate their teammates' level of play; I'm not sure Russ has proved himself to be able to do that.

[bondom34]

I'm saying OKC could be better off as a whole if Russ involved his teammates a little more in the game. Maybe it's on Donovan, but Russ regularly shooting 25-30 times in a game and dominating most of his team's assists in probably not the best strategy to go about winning. This "Russ has to do everything because he teammates suck" narrative is kind of misleading, because the case could be made for the opposite : If Westbrook trusted his teammates a little more, maybe they could become better players than they currently are right now. Great players elevate their teammates' level of play; I'm not sure Russ has proved himself to be able to do that.

Roberson and Grant have been in the NBA for years now, and are not good offensive players. They never have been, never will be. You don't just "make" teammates do things they literally can't. They're specialists left over from years when OKC had offensive firepower at other positions which they now greatly lack. You can't honestly say that giving the ball to Roberson or Grant and telling them to score is a good idea. Heck they get it and give it back half the time. Its just not a realistic argument. They're one way players who lack any scoring ability at all. And Adams just added a little offense to his game this season, which is still very basic. Outside Oladipo there's nothing there to do offensively.

Grant has been in the league 3 years and currently has a career high TS with OKC. Prior to joining his best was at .548 last year. He's a career 29 percent 3 point shooter. Roberson is close to that.

[Tritodian]

I'm saying OKC could be better off as a whole if Russ involved his teammates a little more in the game. Maybe it's on Donovan, but Russ regularly shooting 25-30 times in a game and dominating most of his team's assists in probably not the best strategy to go about winning. This "Russ has to do everything because he teammates suck" narrative is kind of misleading, because the case could be made for the opposite : If Westbrook trusted his teammates a little more, maybe they could become better players than they currently are right now. Great players elevate their teammates' level of play; I'm not sure Russ has proved himself to be able to do that.

Roberson and Grant have been in the NBA for years now, and are not good offensive players. They never have been, never will be. You don't just "make" teammates do things they literally can't. They're specialists left over from years when OKC had offensive firepower at other positions which they now greatly lack. You can't honestly say that giving the ball to Roberson or Grant and telling them to score is a good idea. Heck they get it and give it back half the time. Its just not a realistic argument. They're one way players who lack any scoring ability at all. And Adams just added a little offense to his game this season, which is still very basic. Outside Oladipo there's nothing there to do offensively.

Grant has been in the league 3 years and currently has a career high TS with OKC. Prior to joining his best was at .548 last year. He's a career 29 percent 3 point shooter. Roberson is close to that.

Oladipo, Adams, Kanter are more than capable offensive players. Sabonis has an untapped potential, and is being under-utilized.

[HurricaneKid]

Harden dominates the ball more. Shown by time of possession being greater. And Westbrook's lifting a mostly awful offensive cast.

I should have said dominating possessions. Don't tell me there isn't any difference between Harden/Lebron's approach to the game and Westbrook's because there is. 08-09 Lebron and 14-15 Harden both had awful offensive cast, and didn't even come close to Westbrook's current usage rate. Russ is routinely shooting 30+ times in a game; you put Harden or Lebron on any bottom feeder team, and they still wouldn't do that.

Lebron, I agree. Harden not so much. He's never had this inept an offense around him.

I'm using it as a justification. Their current ORtg of 115.6 has never been outperformed over a full season before. Normally I'd say the guy has the ball way too much but its hard to suggest they are doing something wrong offensively with that level of success.

[bondom34]

I'm saying OKC could be better off as a whole if Russ involved his teammates a little more in the game. Maybe it's on Donovan, but Russ regularly shooting 25-30 times in a game and dominating most of his team's assists in probably not the best strategy to go about winning. This "Russ has to do everything because he teammates suck" narrative is kind of misleading, because the case could be made for the opposite : If Westbrook trusted his teammates a little more, maybe they could become better players than they currently are right now. Great players elevate their teammates' level of play; I'm not sure Russ has proved himself to be able to do that.

Roberson and Grant have been in the NBA for years now, and are not good offensive players. They never have been, never will be. You don't just "make" teammates do things they literally can't. They're specialists left over from years when OKC had offensive firepower at other positions which they now greatly lack. You can't honestly say that giving the ball to Roberson or Grant and telling them to score is a good idea. Heck they get it and give it back half the time. Its just not a realistic argument. They're one way players who lack any scoring ability at all. And Adams just added a little offense to his game this season, which is still very basic. Outside Oladipo there's nothing there to do offensively.

Grant has been in the league 3 years and currently has a career high TS with OKC. Prior to joining his best was at .548 last year. He's a career 29 percent 3 point shooter. Roberson is close to that.

Oladipo, Adams, Kanter are more than capable offensive players. Sabonis has an untapped potential, and is being under-utilized.

Oladipo has missed the last 8 games. There's not much evidence of Adams being that good offensively, and Sabonis is a rookie. Westbrook has played about 9.5 mpg with Kanter.

With Westbrook off court Adams is at a 46.5 TS. Sabonis at 30, and Oladipo at 44.5 (http://nbawowy.com/joa8zb3rbkg#/joa8zb3rbkg). I honestly didn't even realize they were that bad until now. If you're arguing they should get more touches, OK. But I really, really struggle to buy that.

[bondom34]

I should have said dominating possessions. Don't tell me there isn't any difference between Harden/Lebron's approach to the game and Westbrook's because there is. 08-09 Lebron and 14-15 Harden both had awful offensive cast, and didn't even come close to Westbrook's current usage rate. Russ is routinely shooting 30+ times in a game; you put Harden or Lebron on any bottom feeder team, and they still wouldn't do that.

Lebron, I agree. Harden not so much. He's never had this inept an offense around him.

I'm using it as a justification. Their current ORtg of 115.6 has never been outperformed over a full season before. Normally I'd say the guy has the ball way too much but its hard to suggest they are doing something wrong offensively with that level of success.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because if you're using on/off rating, a single player has certainly done that before. And if you'd argue Westbrook should do less, you're arguing someone else does more. So Roberson, Grant, Adams. Not exactly a cast I'd ask more of. Just posted stats w/o Russ, and its awful.

[Gil]

If you put LeBron on the Rockets instead of Harden I actually doubt they'd be this good.

They'd be better. Much better.

With LeBron, they'd be title contenders. They would probably beat the Warriors.

Beverly/Ariza/LeBron....the defensive ability there....my God...

[Gil]

Better supporting cast? 16/17 Rockets or 95/96 Bulls?

[Tritodian]

Roberson and Grant have been in the NBA for years now, and are not good offensive players. They never have been, never will be. You don't just "make" teammates do things they literally can't. They're specialists left over from years when OKC had offensive firepower at other positions which they now greatly lack. You can't honestly say that giving the ball to Roberson or Grant and telling them to score is a good idea. Heck they get it and give it back half the time. Its just not a realistic argument. They're one way players who lack any scoring ability at all. And Adams just added a little offense to his game this season, which is still very basic. Outside Oladipo there's nothing there to do offensively.

Grant has been in the league 3 years and currently has a career high TS with OKC. Prior to joining his best was at .548 last year. He's a career 29 percent 3 point shooter. Roberson is close to that.

Oladipo, Adams, Kanter are more than capable offensive players. Sabonis has an untapped potential, and is being under-utilized.

Oladipo has missed the last 8 games. There's not much evidence of Adams being that good offensively, and Sabonis is a rookie. Westbrook has played about 9.5 mpg with Kanter.

With Westbrook off court Adams is at a 46.5 TS. Sabonis at 30, and Oladipo at 44.5 (http://nbawowy.com/joa8zb3rbkg#/joa8zb3rbkg). I honestly didn't even realize they were that bad until now. If you're arguing they should get more touches, OK. But I really, really struggle to buy that.

Anyone who has played street basketball or a pick-up game knows you gotta have some touches and shot attempts before you really get yourself going. Can't suddenly play well when you're basically a spectator for the majority of the time you share the court with Russ. Again, this is a classic "Chicken or the egg" situation, and I'm saying there's a legitimate argument to be made that when you feel like you're being under-utilized, you don't play to your maximum potential.

[bondom34]

Oladipo, Adams, Kanter are more than capable offensive players. Sabonis has an untapped potential, and is being under-utilized.

Oladipo has missed the last 8 games. There's not much evidence of Adams being that good offensively, and Sabonis is a rookie. Westbrook has played about 9.5 mpg with Kanter.

With Westbrook off court Adams is at a 46.5 TS. Sabonis at 30, and Oladipo at 44.5 (http://nbawowy.com/joa8zb3rbkg#/joa8zb3rbkg). I honestly didn't even realize they were that bad until now. If you're arguing they should get more touches, OK. But I really, really struggle to buy that.

Anyone who has played street basketball or a pick-up game knows you gotta have some touches and shot attempts before you really get yourself going. Can't suddenly play well when you're basically a spectator for the majority of the time you share the court with Russ. Again, this is a classic "Chicken or the egg" situation, and I'm saying there's a legitimate argument to be made that when you feel like you're being under-utilized, you don't play to your maximum potential.

Except there's not when you've played for 3 years and this is your game. If you've ever seen Roberson, you'd know this. Same for Grant. This isn't some magical touch where they get more shots and can magically shoot. They've been bad shooters since before the NBA, this won't magically be different.

[Tritodian]

Oladipo has missed the last 8 games. There's not much evidence of Adams being that good offensively, and Sabonis is a rookie. Westbrook has played about 9.5 mpg with Kanter.

With Westbrook off court Adams is at a 46.5 TS. Sabonis at 30, and Oladipo at 44.5 (http://nbawowy.com/joa8zb3rbkg#/joa8zb3rbkg). I honestly didn't even realize they were that bad until now. If you're arguing they should get more touches, OK. But I really, really struggle to buy that.

Anyone who has played street basketball or a pick-up game knows you gotta have some touches and shot attempts before you really get yourself going. Can't suddenly play well when you're basically a spectator for the majority of the time you share the court with Russ. Again, this is a classic "Chicken or the egg" situation, and I'm saying there's a legitimate argument to be made that when you feel like you're being under-utilized, you don't play to your maximum potential.

Except there's not when you've played for 3 years and this is your game. If you've ever seen Roberson, you'd know this. Same for Grant. This isn't some magical touch where they get more shots and can magically shoot. They've been bad shooters since before the NBA, this won't magically be different.

I'm not talking about Roberson; I'm talking about Adams, Oladipo, Sabonis, Kanter, etc., who are all more than capable offensive talents. Russ doesn't necessarily have higher TS% compared to his teammates; there's no reason for him to dominate that much share of his team's offensive possessions.

[HurricaneKid]

Lebron, I agree. Harden not so much. He's never had this inept an offense around him.

I'm using it as a justification. Their current ORtg of 115.6 has never been outperformed over a full season before. Normally I'd say the guy has the ball way too much but its hard to suggest they are doing something wrong offensively with that level of success.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because if you're using on/off rating, a single player has certainly done that before. And if you'd argue Westbrook should do less, you're arguing someone else does more. So Roberson, Grant, Adams. Not exactly a cast I'd ask more of. Just posted stats w/o Russ, and its awful.

The Rockets, as a team, have as high a ORTG as any team that has completed a season. In the history of basketball. I can be arrogant, but I am not so arrogant as to suggest I know how to more appropriately utilize assets when no one has ever done it better.

This Rox team wasn't expected to be nearly this prolific and I give a LOT of credit for a player/coach/whatever for taking a good offensive team and making it great, timeless even.

[bondom34]

Anyone who has played street basketball or a pick-up game knows you gotta have some touches and shot attempts before you really get yourself going. Can't suddenly play well when you're basically a spectator for the majority of the time you share the court with Russ. Again, this is a classic "Chicken or the egg" situation, and I'm saying there's a legitimate argument to be made that when you feel like you're being under-utilized, you don't play to your maximum potential.

Except there's not when you've played for 3 years and this is your game. If you've ever seen Roberson, you'd know this. Same for Grant. This isn't some magical touch where they get more shots and can magically shoot. They've been bad shooters since before the NBA, this won't magically be different.

I'm not talking about Roberson; I'm talking about Adams, Oladipo, Sabonis, Kanter, etc., who are all more than capable offensive talents. Russ doesn't necessarily have higher TS% compared to his teammates; there's no reason for him to dominate that much share of his team's offensive possessions.

He doesn't play much with Kanter. Sabonis is a rookie, if you've seen him he's tentative offensively no matter what. Adams can't do anything outside finish at the rim or put back shots, he's not a guy who's got his own moves. And Oladipo's putting up solid numbers. I'm not sure if you're not watching these guys and going off gut feeling or what, but none of what your saying here is realistic.

[RunOKC]

Except there's not when you've played for 3 years and this is your game. If you've ever seen Roberson, you'd know this. Same for Grant. This isn't some magical touch where they get more shots and can magically shoot. They've been bad shooters since before the NBA, this won't magically be different.

I'm not talking about Roberson; I'm talking about Adams, Oladipo, Sabonis, Kanter, etc., who are all more than capable offensive talents. Russ doesn't necessarily have higher TS% compared to his teammates; there's no reason for him to dominate that much share of his team's offensive possessions.

He doesn't play much with Kanter. Sabonis is a rookie, if you've seen him he's tentative offensively no matter what. Adams can't do anything outside finish at the rim or put back shots, he's not a guy who's got his own moves. And Oladipo's putting up solid numbers. I'm not sure if you're not watching these guys and going off gut feeling or what, but none of what your saying here is realistic.

I disagree on Adams. He's showing some nice post moves lately.

I love Russ but even i'll admit he can be a bit selfish at times, especially in the second half (no statistics to back this up but I feel like he assists a lot more in the first quarter then tries to get his own later).

[bondom34]

I'm using it as a justification. Their current ORtg of 115.6 has never been outperformed over a full season before. Normally I'd say the guy has the ball way too much but its hard to suggest they are doing something wrong offensively with that level of success.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because if you're using on/off rating, a single player has certainly done that before. And if you'd argue Westbrook should do less, you're arguing someone else does more. So Roberson, Grant, Adams. Not exactly a cast I'd ask more of. Just posted stats w/o Russ, and its awful.

The Rockets, as a team, have as high a ORTG as any team that has completed a season. In the history of basketball. I can be arrogant, but I am not so arrogant as to suggest I know how to more appropriately utilize assets when no one has ever done it better.

This Rox team wasn't expected to be nearly this prolific and I give a LOT of credit for a player/coach/whatever for taking a good offensive team and making it great, timeless even.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

They're ranked 2nd in the NBA right now. And are tied with the 1986-87 Lakers. To add, they just passed Toronto, there's over half a season left.

[Tritodian]

Except there's not when you've played for 3 years and this is your game. If you've ever seen Roberson, you'd know this. Same for Grant. This isn't some magical touch where they get more shots and can magically shoot. They've been bad shooters since before the NBA, this won't magically be different.

I'm not talking about Roberson; I'm talking about Adams, Oladipo, Sabonis, Kanter, etc., who are all more than capable offensive talents. Russ doesn't necessarily have higher TS% compared to his teammates; there's no reason for him to dominate that much share of his team's offensive possessions.

He doesn't play much with Kanter. Sabonis is a rookie, if you've seen him he's tentative offensively no matter what. Adams can't do anything outside finish at the rim or put back shots, he's not a guy who's got his own moves. And Oladipo's putting up solid numbers. I'm not sure if you're not watching these guys and going off gut feeling or what, but none of what your saying here is realistic.

I've watched plenty of OKC games this season and it's just Russ' one-man-show. OKC might not have the deepest roster in the league, but they could do much better in terms of moving the ball around; although I'm not sure whether this is on Russ or Donovan.

[bondom34]

I'm not talking about Roberson; I'm talking about Adams, Oladipo, Sabonis, Kanter, etc., who are all more than capable offensive talents. Russ doesn't necessarily have higher TS% compared to his teammates; there's no reason for him to dominate that much share of his team's offensive possessions.

He doesn't play much with Kanter. Sabonis is a rookie, if you've seen him he's tentative offensively no matter what. Adams can't do anything outside finish at the rim or put back shots, he's not a guy who's got his own moves. And Oladipo's putting up solid numbers. I'm not sure if you're not watching these guys and going off gut feeling or what, but none of what your saying here is realistic.

I disagree on Adams. He's showing some nice post moves lately.

I love Russ but cmon Bondom he can be a bit selfish at times, and especially in the second half (just from the eye test, no statistics to back this up).

http://stats.nba.com/players/post-up/#!?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*okc&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=Percentile&dir=1
Adams is not good in the post.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because if you're using on/off rating, a single player has certainly done that before. And if you'd argue Westbrook should do less, you're arguing someone else does more. So Roberson, Grant, Adams. Not exactly a cast I'd ask more of. Just posted stats w/o Russ, and its awful.

The Rockets, as a team, have as high a ORTG as any team that has completed a season. In the history of basketball. I can be arrogant, but I am not so arrogant as to suggest I know how to more appropriately utilize assets when no one has ever done it better.

This Rox team wasn't expected to be nearly this prolific and I give a LOT of credit for a player/coach/whatever for taking a good offensive team and making it great, timeless even.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

They're ranked 2nd in the NBA right now. And are tied with the 1986-87 Lakers. To add, they just passed Toronto, there's over half a season left.

I'm well aware.

Here are the best offenses, sorted by ORTG, since 1978:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=114.5&order_by=off_rtg

Tied with the best of the Showtime Lakers for second behind this year's GSW (which is why I kept adding "for a full season").

There might be a half a season left but HOU has been INCREASING its ORTG over the last mo+.

[bondom34]

The Rockets, as a team, have as high a ORTG as any team that has completed a season. In the history of basketball. I can be arrogant, but I am not so arrogant as to suggest I know how to more appropriately utilize assets when no one has ever done it better.

This Rox team wasn't expected to be nearly this prolific and I give a LOT of credit for a player/coach/whatever for taking a good offensive team and making it great, timeless even.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

They're ranked 2nd in the NBA right now. And are tied with the 1986-87 Lakers. To add, they just passed Toronto, there's over half a season left.

I'm well aware.

Here are the best offenses, sorted by ORTG, since 1978:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=114.5&order_by=off_rtg

Tied with the best of the Showtime Lakers for second behind this year's GSW (which is why I kept adding "for a full season").

There might be a half a season left but HOU has been INCREASING its ORTG over the last mo+.

Yes they have. If they keep it up a full season, then its time to talk about being historic. Not but a few weeks ago Toronto was putting up an all time great offense. Here we are 2 weeks later and they're not even 2nd in the league.

[K_chile22]

Harden dominates the ball more. Shown by time of possession being greater. And Westbrook's lifting a mostly awful offensive cast.

I should have said dominating possessions. Don't tell me there isn't any difference between Harden/Lebron's approach to the game and Westbrook's because there is. 08-09 Lebron and 14-15 Harden both had awful offensive cast, and didn't even come close to Westbrook's current usage rate. Russ is routinely shooting 30+ times in a game; you put Harden or Lebron on any bottom feeder team, and they still wouldn't do that.

Lebron, I agree. Harden not so much. He's never had this inept an offense around him.

Harden in 2015 had Josh Smith, Corey Brewer, and Joey Dorsey playing significant roles. That team was pretty awful offensively