Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[kingkirk]

We both hated the Rondo move, but was it necessary for their plan to get Wade, I don't know.

I'm not sure I'd have done it for Wade if Rondo had to be part of it, but you have to admit it wasn't a combo of moves that is going to handicap us for very long or submarine any chance to build around Jimmy going forward.

FTR, I never really liked the Wade signing. Had it been done without Rondo while having sigend a PG who can shoot, play defense and play offball (I hear this guy E’Twaun Moore is decent at those things), I would have liked it more. But with Rondo, signing a soon to be 35 year old Wadewith the premise he’d help you in free agency of 2017 (despite not seeing the changes to the new CBA coming), I never liked it. Not when you’ve already traded for Lopez, a non-stretch option, to pair all that with Butler, a driving player who likes to get to the hoop.

It was all dumb.

If the Bulls actually had faith in building around Butler (they weren’t fully sold. Are they now?) then they could’ve built around him in a similar fashion to what Houston did with Harden. As a general premise, that would’ve been nice to see; building a team around a star that structurally fits.

If they had done that, I would be content. They didn’t.

I’m an angry fan because they didn’t blow it up (I wanted to do that prior to the draft) and they didn’t build around Butler properly after they decided to keep him, even though they had the means to do so with close to $40m in cap space.

That, to me, is an incompetent franchise, one who has/had no idea whether they wanted to build around their best player and flew by the seat of their pants signing old washed vets with notable names who are downright awful (Rondo) or overrated and declining (Wade).

[DanTown8587]

The Wizards didn't "tank" for their rebuild; they sucked badly, got a few picks, whiffed on many, and did nothing exceptional besides draft Wall (lottery luck) and Porter (3.5% chance). I mean this is a team that is simply in NBA hell as long as they keep Wall and has never gotten beyond 46 wins yet is a 48-54 win team in the future?

I mean when Otto Porter is the hope of your rebuild and a sign you're doing something right with a #3 pick, you've done something terribly wrong.

I mean maybe if the Wizards deal Beal for Harden we're talking about a 55-60 win team but they didn't.

The only difference between tanking and rebuilding is one is widely accepted as a sound plan while the other is deemed irresponsible and disreputable against the spirit of competition.

The end results is the same: your make your team **** to bottom out and collect high draft picks to hopefully draft an elite talent(s).

I have no problem with a team tanking, the Wizards didn't do that.

The Wizards didn't "rebuild" either, they tried their hardest EVERY YEAR to win more games (hence why they traded for guys like Trevor Ariza or Nene and then this summer signed guys like Mahimi or Andrew Nicholson) yet they've sometimes gotten favorable luck in the draft (i.e getting Wall or lucking in to the Porter pick). This team never had a true direction and it's showed by their dozens of questionable at the time moves over the past ten years.

The Bulls have toed this line lately but they've been drastically better at not going all-in on contracts.

[LordBaldric]

Um...

Yeah, Randolph was a stretch. The other two are not. If Rubio didn't end up matching high expectations ... well hey, such is the case for most good 21 year olds.

Rubio had career ending injury. Same as Rose. Those players of high expectations ceased to exist when they tore their ACL's. Hell even Rondo.

No no no no no. Rubio fully recovered from his injury (he was never a great athlete to begin with). He just never improved his game, especially his hideous scoring ability. As far as Rose goes, I'm pretty sure the injury still effecting him is one between his ears.

[Rerisen]

If the Bulls actually had faith in building around Butler (they weren’t fully sold. Are they now?)

Pretty obviously they were not sold on him, even back to refusing to give him 12m/yr, and then with all the trade talk last summer. Are they now, who knows, this org is king of sitting on the fence, and its been one of my biggest beefs with them.

That, to me, is an incompetent franchise, one who has/had no idea whether they wanted to build around their best player and flew by the seat of their pants signing old washed vets with notable names who are downright awful (Rondo) or overrated and declining (Wade).

I think last summer the FO was just scrambling for their jobs TBH, and Wade/Rondo they felt was just a desperate save to get the team back in the playoff picture, but even that looks far from assured.

For those that don't want to tank (yet anyway) doesn't mean there is faith in this FO to build around Jimmy.

I actually have said if this summer gamble of Wade/Rondo does not pay off in at least a B level star signing, I think its a failure and they should be gone. Because it was an obvious gimmick move, that you could tell would have major trouble working on the floor.

[kingkirk]

I have no problem with a team tanking, the Wizards didn't do that.

The Wizards didn't "rebuild" either, they tried their hardest EVERY YEAR to win more games (hence why they traded for guys like Trevor Ariza or Nene and then this summer signed guys like Mahimi or Andrew Nicholson) yet they've sometimes gotten favorable luck in the draft (i.e getting Wall or lucking in to the Porter pick). This team never had a true direction and it's showed by their dozens of questionable at the time moves over the past ten years.

The Bulls have toed this line lately but they've been drastically better at not going all-in on contracts.

Whether the Wizards tanked or not is somewhat irrelevant. The moves you speak of they made after they had been bad for years, which culminated in drafting Wall, Beal post the Arenas years, where they got destroyed by Arenas going down with an injury.

They remodeled the franchise around Wall from that point onward by getting guys like Nene, Gortat, as well as those they signed this offseason.

[Rerisen]

Yeah the Wizards discussion was more about the picks they made, which would be similar to those you'd get in a tanking style situation. While Mark notes their bad signings, I'm not really convinced Wall/Beal are championship material regardless. Always been a bit more flash than substance about Wall to me, and in how his game translates (not that well) to the playoffs.

[kingkirk]

I think rebuilding is generally more synonymous with already being pretty bad and having no choice. Like a veteran team just aging out.

While the term tanking usually implies more deliberate sabotage or intention to be bad, whether that involves a massive immediate loser trade like moving a Jimmy Butler, or sitting guys that could be playing, or firesaling decent players.

I.e. Let's say the Bulls try to keep building with Jimmy, but after several more 40ish win seasons, just don't get anywhere, and then Jimmy's prime ends, then you are looking at a classic rebuilding situation.

So to the extent rebuilding is considered acceptable, its because you've usually arrived there via end of the road, and its inevitably staring you in the face.

I don’t really have a problem with anything you noted here. I agree with most of it. But no matter how a team arrived to that point, in either scenario, aren’t they in the same place?

Only difference is one is dignified because they waited until the end of the line to reach that point, whereas the other one jumped off before.

I guess what I don’t understand is why this board for years has crucified the front office for not selling on their guys earlier and maximising value, but now wanting to go down the line with Butler (which I’d be fine with if they had done it properly)?

Butler is a better talent than any one the team has had sans MVP Rose, so maybe that answers my own question, but the theory is the same, no?

[Rerisen]

I guess what I don’t understand is why this board for years has crucified the front office for not selling on their guys earlier and maximising value, but now wanting to go down the line with Butler (which I’d be fine with if they had done it properly)?

Butler is a better talent than any one the team has had sans MVP Rose, so maybe that answers my own question, but the theory is the same, no?

You did answer it for most which is why most don't see it the same. That selling high on a top 10 player makes little sense, while refusing to sell high on all the role players of the past made no sense.

Heck I think a good case can be made the Bulls should be shopping one or both of Doug/Niko right now, as for supposed shooters, I find them greatly lacking in consistency, and they don't have the all around games to supplement that kind of inconsistency. Nor are they a good fit together due to defense. But seems they are more interested in shopping Jimmy, than other parts of the roster in order to get Jimmy help.

[kingkirk]

Pretty obviously they were not sold on him, even back to refusing to give him 12m/yr, and then with all the trade talk last summer. Are they now, who knows, this org is king of sitting on the fence, and its been one of my biggest beefs with them.

Agree. That inaction has led them to where we are now, a middle of the road team that would be out of the playoff picture had Butler not defeated the 1st, 2nd and 4th seeds in the East by himself, all in one week.

I think last summer the FO was just scrambling for their jobs TBH, and Wade/Rondo they felt was just a desperate save to get the team back in the playoff picture, but even that looks far from assured.

For those that don't want to tank (yet anyway) doesn't mean there is faith in this FO to build around Jimmy.

I actually have said if this summer gamble of Wade/Rondo does not pay off in at least a B level star signing, I think its a failure and they should be gone. Because it was an obvious gimmick move, that you could tell would have major trouble working on the floor.

The whole thing about signing Wade and Rondo was it’s only a one year deal and maintains flexibility. That’s another thing that makes no sense to me, as many on this board got **** the minute Gar would ever pedal this line, yet they’re toting this line out pretty regularly now.

If they can’t lure a game-changing free agent this offseason, and instead have Wade opt in, re-sign Taj, Niko and maybe get another bench guy or two, then that’s ridiculous to me.

Planning for cap space in 2017 when the new CBA introduces easier rules for teams to keep the best free agents off the market is comical to me. I’m sure CP3 is coming to Chicago and turning down a 5-year max from LA now that he can get one due to the over-36 rule changing to over-38. Dummies.

[Rerisen]

I kind of feel bad for the tankers, because even though Jimmy talks makes me worried at WTF they are doing, my saner side says they are only teasing the tankers, and are only holding him out there in the hail mary hope that someone offers them the entire farm - typical Bulls FO mentality - and there is little chance anyone will. Especially Ainge, who is also notoriously stingy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the league FO's think little of GarPax's value assessments.

The downside in dangling your star like this, for a return very unlikely to be given, is you piss him off and hurt the locker room cohesion of a team that's already been shaky on that front.

[kingkirk]

You did answer it for most which is why most don't see it the same. That selling high on a top 10 player makes little sense, while refusing to sell high on all the role players of the past made no sense.

And I get that. That makes sense. But what I never see is what is the next step. So you keep Butler. What do you do next? Do you go into 2017 trying to signing the best possible free agent(s) you can to long term deals?

If so, fine. But long term deals to average-good players locks you into that team for Butler's prime. What then?

If you only come away Jrue Holiday or someone similar (if they can even afford him) an average to above-average player, what is the next move to push this team towards 50-55 plus wins?

[Rerisen]

You did answer it for most which is why most don't see it the same. That selling high on a top 10 player makes little sense, while refusing to sell high on all the role players of the past made no sense.

And I get that. That makes sense. But what I never see is what is the next step. So you keep Butler. What do you do next? Do you go into 2017 trying to signing the best possible free agent(s) you can to long term deals?

If so, fine. But long term deals to average-good players locks you into that team for Butler's prime. What then?

If you only come away Jrue Holiday or someone similar (if they can even afford him) an average to above-average player, what is the next move to push this team towards 50-55 plus wins?

Outside a miracle FA, I don't think they can get there without some savvy trades or draft picks. Less likely draft picks, since it will be hard for picks around #10 to develop that fast, I think those picks should be bundled in trade for proven talent, if they are trying to build with Jimmy.

But this FO never does that, because the philosophy of the organization is to covet those bargain rookie contracts for payroll purposes. Then you end up hoping on kids to fil major rotation roles (like in 2015 with Snell/Doug). Thibs called them on their BS, that kids don't feature in title rotations historically, and they didnt' like it.

[Rerisen]

Gotta say for all the ill fit with Wade (its Rondo that really killed it, a 3-D PG and say Niko able to handle PF, would fix Jimmy/Wade a lot), if Wade has managed to help Jimmy ascend into a true #1 option, he may well have been worth it even if his on court play can't justify his deal.

Maybe Jimmy would have got here on his own, hard to say. But I'm pretty sure Butler wanted Wade a lot more than he wanted us to sign some journeyman role players, even had those players fit better.

[DanTown8587]

You did answer it for most which is why most don't see it the same. That selling high on a top 10 player makes little sense, while refusing to sell high on all the role players of the past made no sense.

And I get that. That makes sense. But what I never see is what is the next step. So you keep Butler. What do you do next? Do you go into 2017 trying to signing the best possible free agent(s) you can to long term deals?

If so, fine. But long term deals to average-good players locks you into that team for Butler's prime. What then?

If you only come away Jrue Holiday or someone similar (if they can even afford him) an average to above-average player, what is the next move to push this team towards 50-55 plus wins?

If it was me, I'd try and go "mostly in" this summer

- Trade Lopez for expiring deals now, let Wade walk
- Sign Milsap to a max deal
- Reisgn Taj to be a small ball five
- Resign Felicio
- Hit on the two firsts you're going to get and find a guy who's a capable player
- Sign Ian Clark
- Resign MCW to a fairly average deal
- Sign Casspi to a one or two year deal

Clark - Butler - McDermott - Milsap - Gibson starters
MCW - Valentine - Casspi - Felicio main bench
#1, #1, Zipser, Portis, vet guy, Cannan super deep bench

[Mech Engineer]

I kind of feel bad for the tankers, because even though Jimmy talks makes me worried at WTF they are doing, my saner side says they are only teasing the tankers, and are only holding him out there in the hail mary hope that someone offers them the entire farm - typical Bulls FO mentality - and there is little chance anyone will. Especially Ainge, who is also notoriously stingy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the league FO's think little of GarPax's value assessments.

The downside in dangling your star like this, for a return very unlikely to be given, is you piss him off and hurt the locker room cohesion of a team that's already been shaky on that front.

I think you are being unfair to GarPax. Every GM thinks their cast of players are all future HOFers. It is probably due to sentimental reasons of the value of their assets. I think if you add pieces to fill holes, your team can improve like what the good teams do.

The Bulls never seem to fix holes quickly for reasons they control or not being creative. They are not your typical FO. Their threshold for risks is very high... They are not ready to give up assets for a good complementary piece. For example... How the Cavs added Mozgov, Shumpert and JR will never happen with the Bulls even in that similar situation. They will do the Durant type addition with GS to spend more.

That's why people have doubts about them building around Jimmy. If they have ill fit pieces, can they recover by just not dumping like they did with Deng. That's why so many were shocked at the Rose trade when they got real NBA players.

[Dez]

Reading that Butler thread on the Celtics board left me speechless at just how delusional some of them are.

[kingkirk]

If it was me, I'd try and go "mostly in" this summer

- Trade Lopez for expiring deals now, let Wade walk
- Sign Milsap to a max deal
- Reisgn Taj to be a small ball five
- Resign Felicio
- Hit on the two firsts you're going to get and find a guy who's a capable player
- Sign Ian Clark
- Resign MCW to a fairly average deal
- Sign Casspi to a one or two year deal

Clark - Butler - McDermott - Milsap - Gibson starters
MCW - Valentine - Casspi - Felicio main bench
#1, #1, Zipser, Portis, vet guy, Cannan super deep bench

You won me over by suggesting to trade Lopez and re-signing Taj. It bothers me how many people are ok with moving Taj because of his contract status. He is more playable in a range of different lineups, big or small.

I don't get why people want to trade Taj now that he's an expiring and won't net you much. I like this plan, but what about Mirotic? Assume you've let him walk?

[kingkirk]

Outside a miracle FA, I don't think they can get there without some savvy trades or draft picks. Less likely draft picks, since it will be hard for picks around #10 to develop that fast, I think those picks should be bundled in trade for proven talent, if they are trying to build with Jimmy.

But this FO never does that, because the philosophy of the organization is to covet those bargain rookie contracts for payroll purposes. Then you end up hoping on kids to fil major rotation roles (like in 2015 with Snell/Doug). Thibs called them on their BS, that kids don't feature in title rotations historically, and they didnt' like it.

You did not instill me with much confidence moving forward at all.

[Rerisen]

Outside a miracle FA, I don't think they can get there without some savvy trades or draft picks. Less likely draft picks, since it will be hard for picks around #10 to develop that fast, I think those picks should be bundled in trade for proven talent, if they are trying to build with Jimmy.

But this FO never does that, because the philosophy of the organization is to covet those bargain rookie contracts for payroll purposes. Then you end up hoping on kids to fil major rotation roles (like in 2015 with Snell/Doug). Thibs called them on their BS, that kids don't feature in title rotations historically, and they didnt' like it.

You did not instill me with much confidence moving forward at all.

There is no clear confidence path to choose. But you can choose anytime to embark on a 5 year rebuild/tank, which you might not emerge from. You can't always have a Top 10 type star to try to build on.

Most likely the draft misses the last 4 years combined with no creative roster moves have narrowed their paths to success. And if it turns out to be the case, this FO should not outlive the end of this incarnation of the team. If we are to rebuild, let new minds do it.

[The Box Office]

One effin point against the Oklahoma City Thunder. Jimmy Butler. Superstar. 1 point. 28 minutes, 0-6. Terrible defense, too. Sick, eh? He should have said, "No I can't play. I'm sick." There was no point in playing tonight.