Political Roundtable Part XI

[dckingsfan]

True - but that depends on what they have

For instance if Russia has something that shows that he conspired with a foreign government - that would be treason.

Punishable by death? Even Trump would care about that... well, maybe not,

Let's assume Russia did have something like that. What possible reason would they have to give it to us? So Trump could be impeached? I don't see how that would help them.

The blackmail scenario makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

That is how blackmail works

You have something that means more to the other person than you - they don't care if Trump is impeached and then summarily executed - Trump would (I think?).

[tontoz]

It IS classified. We've gotten the declassified version.

Congress is seeing something different,

But like I said before, you don't trust them..and that's fine.

That is the point. The declassified version was worthless, so why did they release it? It was strictly a pr stunt.

Intelligence agencies make their living on secrecy and deception. If all this info was classified then we wouldn't have been hearing about Russia since October.

[tontoz]

True - but that depends on what they have

For instance if Russia has something that shows that he conspired with a foreign government - that would be treason.

Punishable by death? Even Trump would care about that... well, maybe not,

Let's assume Russia did have something like that. What possible reason would they have to give it to us? So Trump could be impeached? I don't see how that would help them.

The blackmail scenario makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

That is how blackmail works

You have something that means more to the other person than you - they don't care if Trump is impeached and then summarily executed - Trump would (I think?).

Like I said it makes no sense. If Trump is removed then the country would surely turn much more hawkish about Russia. How does that help Russia? Having Trump removed works against their self interests.

[closg00]

"tinkle, tinkle, little Czar Putin put you where you are"

~George Takei~


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[nate33]

The Republicans and Democrats are both tools of the military-industrial-complex/Wall Street/banking lobby, which has a stranglehold on the Federal bureaucracy and have run the government at least since 1988. The CIA is part of the Deep State.

While I'm not completely certain that Trump is a true outsider opposed to those groups, I think it's a real possibility. The extent to which his campaign has been hated by every DC insider, including the Republicans, is pretty good evidence. With that the case, I'm not inclined to trust the CIA on anti-Trump stories. I believe that they're compromised. I have a bit more faith in the FBI. They may be compromised at the top, but I think there are genuinely honest people within the ranks.

I recognize that it's easy to just label me a conspiracy theorist who dismisses all anti-Trump stories. I struggle with this too. I don't want to be a Trump sycophant. But at the same time, I have so much reason to distrust the anti-Trump outlets because they have all proven to be so dishonest. I definitely can't trust the NYTimes or the Post. I can't trust the CIA. I can't trust McCain or Lindsey Graham. I certainly can't trust entrenched Democrats. I'm highly skeptical of Fox News and WSJ too.

The only ones that I place some faith in are the ones that are clearly outside of the inner circles of power. I have more trust in people like Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, Rand Paul and Jeff Sessions than I do most of the mainstream Republicans.

My faith in the government and the media has never been so low.

[dobrojim]

So the Russian strategy has succeeded!

(back to lurk mode)

[montestewart]

Let's assume Russia did have something like that. What possible reason would they have to give it to us? So Trump could be impeached? I don't see how that would help them.

The blackmail scenario makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

That is how blackmail works

You have something that means more to the other person than you - they don't care if Trump is impeached and then summarily executed - Trump would (I think?).

Like I said it makes no sense. If Trump is removed then the country would surely turn much more hawkish about Russia. How does that help Russia? Having Trump removed works against their self interests.

It's not unheard of for blackmailers to threaten disclosures that are against both parties' interests. In fact, that scenario is pretty common in movies, and generally doesn't strain credulity. Blackmail succeeds as long as they are paying. It fails when you have to turn over the incriminating evidence. You only have to convince the blackmailee that you will turn it over, and in dckingsfan's scenario, Trump has a whole more at stake, relatively speaking, than Russia does. Seems like it might be hard for Trump to call Putin's bluff. Can't wait for ther Netflix stream.

[tontoz]

That is how blackmail works

You have something that means more to the other person than you - they don't care if Trump is impeached and then summarily executed - Trump would (I think?).

Like I said it makes no sense. If Trump is removed then the country would surely turn much more hawkish about Russia. How does that help Russia? Having Trump removed works against their self interests.

It's not unheard of for blackmailers to threaten disclosures that are against both parties' interests. In fact, that scenario is pretty common in movies, and generally doesn't strain credulity. Blackmail succeeds as long as they are paying. It fails when you have to turn over the incriminating evidence. You only have to convince the blackmailee that you will turn it over, and in dckingsfan's scenario, Trump has a whole more at stake, relatively speaking, than Russia does. Seems like it might be hard for Trump to call Putin's bluff. Can't wait for ther Netflix stream.

This isn't the movies. I don't see how Russia would be willing to piss off the largest superpower on Earth to such a large degree. Makes no sense. It makes far more sense to try to work with Trump as much as possible.

[nate33]

The great Glenn Greenwald spells it out:

The Deep State Goes to War with President-Elect, Using Unverified Claims, as Democrats Cheer
by Glenn Greenwald

IN JANUARY, 1961, Dwight Eisenhower delivered his Farewell Address after serving two terms as U.S. President; the five-star General chose to warn Americans of this specific threat to democracy: “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.” That warning was issued prior to the decade-long escalation of the Vietnam War, three more decades of Cold War mania, and the post-9/11 era, all of which radically expanded that unelected faction’s power even further.

This is the faction that is now engaged in open warfare against the duly elected and already-widely-disliked president-elect, Donald Trump. They are using classic Cold War dirty tactics and the defining ingredients of what has until recently been denounced as “Fake News.”

Their most valuable instrument is the U.S. media, much of which reflexively reveres, serves, believes and sides with hidden intelligence officials. And Democrats, still reeling from their unexpected and traumatic election loss as well as a systemic collapse of their party, seemingly divorced further and further from reason with each passing day, are willing – eager – to embrace any claim, cheer any tactic, align with any villain, regardless of how unsupported, tawdry and damaging those behaviors might be.

The serious dangers posed by a Trump presidency are numerous and manifest. There are a wide array of legitimate and effective tactics for combatting those threats: from bipartisan Congressional coalitions and Constitutional legal challenges to citizen uprisings and sustained and aggressive civil disobedience. All of those strategies have periodically proven themselves effective in times of political crisis or authoritarian overreach.

But cheering for the CIA and its shadowy allies to unilaterally subvert the U.S. election and impose its own policy dictates on the elected President is both warped and self-destructive. Empowering the very entities that have produced the most shameful atrocities and systemic deceit over the last six decades is desperation of the worst kind. Demanding that evidence-free, anonymous assertions be instantly venerated as Truth – despite emanating from the very precincts designed to propagandize and lie – is an assault on journalism, democracy, and basic human rationality. And casually branding domestic adversaries who refuse to go along as traitors and disloyal foreign operatives is morally bankrupt and certain to backfire on those doing it.

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/11/the-deep-state-goes-to-war-with-president-elect-using-unverified-claims-as-dems-cheer/

Greenwald is no Trump supporter. He's a left of center Democrat with libertarian leanings. He's one of the few reporters I trust, though. I really like Greenwald, Michael Tracey and Byron York. Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone is pretty good too, though definitely on the left wing side of things.

[closg00]

"Why BuzzFeed Published the Explosive Memos About Trump and Russia—and Why No One Beat Them to It"

https://apple.news/AcSCHxlX9RQ6yBsmFcp9Gqw


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[tontoz]

But cheering for the CIA and its shadowy allies to unilaterally subvert the U.S. election and impose its own policy dictates on the elected President is both warped and self-destructive. Empowering the very entities that have produced the most shameful atrocities and systemic deceit over the last six decades is desperation of the worst kind. Demanding that evidence-free, anonymous assertions be instantly venerated as Truth – despite emanating from the very precincts designed to propagandize and lie – is an assault on journalism, democracy, and basic human rationality

exactly

[Wizardspride]

This doesn't necessarily prove anything...other than Trump being a liar

Read on Twitter

[tontoz]

This doesn't necessarily prove anything...other than Trump being a liar

Read on Twitter

Gee thanks. The other hundreds of examples were not enough to convince me Trump is a liar, but this does.

[gtn130]

But cheering for the CIA and its shadowy allies to unilaterally subvert the U.S. election and impose its own policy dictates on the elected President is both warped and self-destructive. Empowering the very entities that have produced the most shameful atrocities and systemic deceit over the last six decades is desperation of the worst kind. Demanding that evidence-free, anonymous assertions be instantly venerated as Truth – despite emanating from the very precincts designed to propagandize and lie – is an assault on journalism, democracy, and basic human rationality

exactly

But Wikileaks is fine

[AFM]

Haha.

Trump is live now, gentlemen.

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/vb.153080620724/10158452429155725/?type=3&theater

[tontoz]

But cheering for the CIA and its shadowy allies to unilaterally subvert the U.S. election and impose its own policy dictates on the elected President is both warped and self-destructive. Empowering the very entities that have produced the most shameful atrocities and systemic deceit over the last six decades is desperation of the worst kind. Demanding that evidence-free, anonymous assertions be instantly venerated as Truth – despite emanating from the very precincts designed to propagandize and lie – is an assault on journalism, democracy, and basic human rationality

exactly

But Wikileaks is fine

Wikileaks published the emails. Whether or not you believe where they got the info doesn't change the info that was in the emails. Wiki didn't write them, and they know for sure where they came from. Nobody has come forth casting doubt about whether or not the emails are authentic.

They have also published incriminating info about the Russian Gov't in the past. I seriously doubt they are trying to pander to Russia.

[AFM]

Haha.

Trump is live now, gentlemen.

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/vb.153080620724/10158452429155725/?type=3&theater

Trump on the rumors: "I'm very much a germaphobe, believe it or not."

[gtn130]

exactly

But Wikileaks is fine

Wikileaks published the emails. Whether or not you believe where they got the info doesn't change the info that was in the emails. Wiki didn't write them, and they know for sure where they came from. Nobody has come forth casting doubt about whether or not the emails are authentic.

They have also published incriminating info about the Russian Gov't in the past. I seriously doubt they are trying to pander to Russia.

You're completely misinformed. Wikileaks hasn't said anything bad about Russia since like 2010.

As all this was going on, Russian officials began praising Assange and WikiLeaks at an increasingly loud volume. It was becoming clear that Assange’s disclosures targeted and embarrassed the United States far more than any other power — music to the Kremlin’s ears.

In December 2010, shortly after Shamir handed off cables to Belarus, an anonymous Kremlin official suggested that Assange should be given the Nobel Peace Prize. The next day, Vladimir Putin personally defended Assange against charges, filed in Sweden, that he had raped two women. According to Putin, the allegations were politically motivated and not credible. (Swedish courts disagree.)

"If it is full democracy, then why have they hidden Mr. Assange in prison? That's what, democracy?" the Russian leader said at a press conference. The next month, the Russian government offered Assange a visa — an opportunity to live in a country that would not likely extradite him to Sweden.

In April 2012, the relationship between Assange and Russia became direct for the first time. Specifically, Assange became a star on Russia Today (RT), Russia’s state-funded English-language propaganda outlet.

“With WikiLeaks’ funding drying up — under American pressure, Visa and MasterCard had stopped accepting donations — Russia Today began broadcasting a show called ‘The World Tomorrow’ with Mr. Assange as the host,” the New York Times reported in a 2016 piece on Assange’s Russian ties.

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/1/6/14179240/wikileaks-russia-ties

Also, the idea that Wikileaks is just posting facts on the internet is absolutely disingenuous.

Here is Wikileaks sharing actual fake, made-up news:

Read on Twitter

Here is Wikileaks declaring that Hillary is on her deathbed:



Here is Wikileaks sharing some bizarre fear-mongering nonsense:

Read on Twitter

I can go on, but I think you get the point. Wikileaks isn't posting facts on the internet and letting the people decide. Their content ranges from wild distortions of the facts to outright fiction. And I'm not sure anyone even doubts it anymore, but they're clearly, clearly partisan.

Keep defending Wikileaks, though, and demanding ethical journalism in the same breath, everyone!

[montestewart]

Like I said it makes no sense. If Trump is removed then the country would surely turn much more hawkish about Russia. How does that help Russia? Having Trump removed works against their self interests.

It's not unheard of for blackmailers to threaten disclosures that are against both parties' interests. In fact, that scenario is pretty common in movies, and generally doesn't strain credulity. Blackmail succeeds as long as they are paying. It fails when you have to turn over the incriminating evidence. You only have to convince the blackmailee that you will turn it over, and in dckingsfan's scenario, Trump has a whole more at stake, relatively speaking, than Russia does. Seems like it might be hard for Trump to call Putin's bluff. Can't wait for ther Netflix stream.

I don't see how Russia would be willing to piss off the largest superpower on Earth to such a large degree. Makes no sense. It makes far more sense to try to work with Trump as much as possible.

dck and I both have gone to such lengths to illustrate scenarios in which it could make sense. Reasonable responses to our patient formulations might included, "it's pretty far fetched" or "perhaps, but this scenario makes far more sense to me," or "I prefer Roger Moore to Sean Connery."

Movies are not the evidence, they merely routinely illustrate real life, so saying, "This isn't the movies" doesn't negate anything. (Is the Zapruder film actually evidence that JFK is still alive?) It is so believable as a recurring element in movies exactly because it has been employed in real life. Your response that it would be against Russia interest, as if no blackmailer has ever threatened to expose information that might be against their own interests, is an unsupportable, unsustainable, nonrenewable position.

The mere act of blackmail is against the blackmailer's interests, if the blackmailer is caught. Are you saying there's no such thing as blackmail? Of course, not, therefore, blackmailers will risk acting against their own interests. Successful blackmailing routinely involves some level of bluffing. You think Putin's incapable of bluffing? You think he's worried about angering the U.S.? You think Russia has a long history of not invading other countries exactly because they're afraid of angering the U.S.?

Somewhere in an underground vault in Russia, there could be a ziplock baggy with yellow sheets and "козырь" on the fresh until label. Admit it!

[Benjammin]

If the DNC had played fair Bernie would have had an excellent shot at the nomination, would have beaten Trump and we wouldn't be in this mess. I disagree with a lot of what Bernie believes but at least he's an honorable person.

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