2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread

[Slizeezyc]

After watching Ball shoot over the athletes on Kentucky, the only question I have about his shooting is his ability to shoot midrange, off the pick-n-roll. They don't run pick-n-roll much in college, so you're not going to see it. But based on how Ball makes decisions and his ability to finish with both hands, I'd have to think he'd still be a pick-n-roll nightmare for most defenses.

**I'm convinced we're not going to be bad enough to get Ball, so now I'm just hoping Boston doesn't get him.

I don't follow the logic here? He could only get off 30+ footers against Kentucky, went 2-8 from deep and had 6 turnovers. If anything, that game proved out the fears of Ball not being a lead guard in anything but transition. He had to either throw up hand grenades or dish it off when it wasn't in the open court.

You tend to obsess about how players look against other "good athletes" and that Kentucky game sort of showed where Ball stands as a halfcourt player, and it wasn't great; Fox gave him plenty of trouble on both ends.

I understand your point. If you look at the boxscore, I can see that conclusion. I don't "boxscore scout" college players, so I won't argue against your point of view.

I mean I watched the game, so this is a pretty ****, elitist and condescending way to respond. I mentioned stats as a way to add it to what I saw watching the game.

I just don't see how you can obsess so much over comparing players only when they play "athletes" and then just act like Ball came out of that game like all things were answered. Saying, "well he could get his shot off against Bam" isn't high praise. He took really bad shots from way out -- and I think it's cool that he can hit them -- but it also shows his struggles in the half court both because he's a bit sloppy with the ball and doesn't have great first-step explosion so he has to settle. And that's not a one-game trend, he's not been great at getting in the paint overall in the halfcourt, and he's definitely not been good at getting in the land to finish. The unwillingness to shoot anything but 3s in the half court -- or perhaps inability to get in the lane -- is concerning. I think being 6-6 he'll be fine in the grand scheme of things, but I didn't think "here's an obvious lead guard" after watching that game.

I love Ball with Simmons more than just about anyone in this draft, but as I think I've said, him being a halfcourt floor general has some question marks as being a lead guard is a lot about making things happen for you and others when the game slows down a bit.

[Marcus]

After watching Ball shoot over the athletes on Kentucky, the only question I have about his shooting is his ability to shoot midrange, off the pick-n-roll. They don't run pick-n-roll much in college, so you're not going to see it. But based on how Ball makes decisions and his ability to finish with both hands, I'd have to think he'd still be a pick-n-roll nightmare for most defenses.

**I'm convinced we're not going to be bad enough to get Ball, so now I'm just hoping Boston doesn't get him.

I don't follow the logic here? He could only get off 30+ footers against Kentucky, went 2-8 from deep and had 6 turnovers. If anything, that game proved out the fears of Ball not being a lead guard in anything but transition. He had to either throw up hand grenades or dish it off when it wasn't in the open court.

You tend to obsess about how players look against other "good athletes" and that Kentucky game sort of showed where Ball stands as a halfcourt player, and it wasn't great; Fox gave him plenty of trouble on both ends.

This is the point that I was making. On a pick and roll, one of the best shots to take is a mid range shot because the defender is either off balanced or the switch man is paying too far off. If the guard doesn't have a natural pull-up shot from mid range, the PnR is infinitely harder to run. I'm not saying Ball literally can't hit a mid range shot, I'm saying in the flow of the game, he's not taking set shots from mid range. He's off balanced and has to have a natural pull up jump shot. Maybe one of these days he'll show off that part of his game.

he's going to need to add a floater and/or a push shot in order to keep defenses honest during drives on PnR.

[LloydFree]

I don't follow the logic here? He could only get off 30+ footers against Kentucky, went 2-8 from deep and had 6 turnovers. If anything, that game proved out the fears of Ball not being a lead guard in anything but transition. He had to either throw up hand grenades or dish it off when it wasn't in the open court.

You tend to obsess about how players look against other "good athletes" and that Kentucky game sort of showed where Ball stands as a halfcourt player, and it wasn't great; Fox gave him plenty of trouble on both ends.

I understand your point. If you look at the boxscore, I can see that conclusion. I don't "boxscore scout" college players, so I won't argue against your point of view.

I mean I watched the game, so this is a pretty ****, elitist and condescending way to respond. I mentioned stats as a way to add it to what I saw watching the game.

I just don't see how you can obsess so much over comparing players only when they play "athletes" and then just act like Ball came out of that game like all things were answered.

Sorry you feel that way. Your responded to a post that I made to someone else and alluded to what "I tend to do" instead of focusing on the player we were discussing. I responded with what "I don't do". You made it about what I do, I didn't say anything about you.

[Slizeezyc]

I understand your point. If you look at the boxscore, I can see that conclusion. I don't "boxscore scout" college players, so I won't argue against your point of view.

I mean I watched the game, so this is a pretty ****, elitist and condescending way to respond. I mentioned stats as a way to add it to what I saw watching the game.

I just don't see how you can obsess so much over comparing players only when they play "athletes" and then just act like Ball came out of that game like all things were answered.

Sorry you feel that way. Your responded to a post that I made to someone else and alluded to what "I tend to do" instead of focusing on the player we were discussing. I responded with what "I don't do". You made it about what I do, I didn't say anything about you.

I said that because it didn't align with your general thoughts on how you discuss other players in terms of "waiting to see how they play against athletes." It was an inconsistency and so I wanted a better explanation of why you felt that way, which you gave in the follow up -- which I didn't agree with, but at least it's there to digest. A bad thing anyone can do when talking about prospects is not be aware of your own blind spots because it clouds your analysis, which is all I was trying to figure out there.

And I pretty clearly spent multiple sentences discussing the prospect in multiple posts, and little to no time on you beyond the initial question.

[Ericb5]

Ball doesn't shoot from midrange because he is a genius on the court, and therefore he knows that the midrange is the absolute worst shot in the game. How can you argue with a .662 TS%? That's absolutely sick. I do have questions about how effective his shot will be in the NBA, but him not taking midrange shots is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

After watching Ball shoot over the athletes on Kentucky, the only question I have about his shooting is his ability to shoot midrange, off the pick-n-roll. They don't run pick-n-roll much in college, so you're not going to see it. But based on how Ball makes decisions and his ability to finish with both hands, I'd have to think he'd still be a pick-n-roll nightmare for most defenses.

**I'm convinced we're not going to be bad enough to get Ball, so now I'm just hoping Boston doesn't get him.

I don't follow the logic here? He could only get off 30+ footers against Kentucky, went 2-8 from deep and had 6 turnovers. If anything, that game proved out the fears of Ball not being a lead guard in anything but transition. He had to either throw up hand grenades or dish it off when it wasn't in the open court.

You tend to obsess about how players look against other "good athletes" and that Kentucky game sort of showed where Ball stands as a halfcourt player, and it wasn't great; Fox gave him plenty of trouble on both ends.

Ball is one of these kids though where his game transcends athleticism. It is the mental things that he is born with that set him apart. He doesn't succeed because of quickness or strength. He succeeds due to special vision, and intelligence.


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[eagereyez]

Okay, whatever. I'm not even saying "long 2's". How about a shot from the elbow after beating your man on a "pumpfake", if he even has one of those?

There's no math to do. He's the only one shooting under double digit percentage of 2pts taken of any top ten prospect. And of those shots, he's the only one in single digits. That's, in my opinion, a massive red flag. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single starting PG in the NBA with those numbers or anything remotely close. Even Elfrid Payton is shooting 33% of his shots from inside the arc but not in the paint. Rubio is 34%.

Maybe all these guards just haven't learned Lonzo's secret that the mid range game is worthless, right?

apparently there is some math to do for you. whats the avg on elbow jumpers in the nba? whats the average 3p % in the nba? do the math

there is really nothing to compare...ah you mean those 9/18/27 (im too lazy to search it up) shots taken huh? cmon...this samplesize is worth absolutely nothing.

Somehow you managed to string a bunch of words together into two paragraphs without forming a coherent point, but once again you're incapable of having this discussion without being obnoxious, so I'll just move on. This isn't worth my time.

I agree with you. I forget who, but someone broke down Lonzo's shot mechanics which helps explain why he can't get his shot off in the mid-range. He requires a large amount of room to gather the ball off the dribble (he brings it up sideways across his body), which makes it difficult to get off when he's being pressed. It's no coincidence that he takes a lot of 3s from well beyond the arc, and is assisted on a very large percentage of them. He's a unique player.

Not really sure where I'd rank him among the PGs. I will say that Monk has been extremely impressive. Having that kind of raw shooting/scoring ability next to Simmons seems like a match made in heaven.

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[smittybanton]

Saturday, January 14th
Georgia v. #23 Florida, noon/ESPN2 (Devin Robinson)
#19 Virginia v. Clemson, noon/ACCN (Jaron Blossomgame)
#7 Duke v. #14 Louisville, noon/ESPN (Jayson Tatum, Harry Giles, Grayson Allen, Luke Kennard, Marques Bolden, Frank Jackson) (Donovan Mitchell)
Miami v. Pittsburgh, noon/ACCN (JaQuan Newton)
Connecticut v. Georgetown, noon/Fox (Rodney Pryor)
#3 Villanova v. St. John's, noon/FS1 (Jason Hart)
Texas A&M v. Mississippi St., 1pm/CBS (Rodney Williams)
#9 Florida St. v. #11 North Carolina, 2pm/ESPN (Jonathan Isaac, Dwayne Bacon, Terrance Mann) (Joel Berry, Tony Bradley)
Oklahoma St. v. #2 Kansas 2pm/ESPN2 (Juwan Evans) (Josh Jackson, Devonte Graham, Frank Mason, Svi Mykhailiuk)
#15 Xavier v. #12 Butler, 2pm/FS1 (Edmond Sumner) (Kelan Martin)
Auburn v. #6 Kentucky, 4pm/ESPN (DeAaron Fox, Malik Monk, Edrice Adebayo, Isaiah Briscoe)
#10 West Virginia v. Texas, 4pm/ESPN2 (Jevon Carter) (Jarrett Allen)
Boston College v. Syracuse, 4pm/ACCN (Tyler Lydon)
Washington St. v. California, 4pm/PAC12 (Ivan Rabb)
#1 Baylor v. #25 Kansas St., 4:30/ESPNU (Jonathan Motley)
Iowa St. v. TCU, 5:30 (Monte Morris)
Maryland v. Illinois, 6pm/ESPN2 (Melo Trimble) (Malcolm Hill)
#4 UCLA v. Utah, 6pm/PAC12 (Lonzo Ball, TJ Leaf, Aaron Mitchell) (Kyle Kuzma)
South Florida v. Memphis, 6pm/CBSSN (Dedric Lawson)
Nevada v. Wyoming, 6pm/ESPN3 (Cameron Oliver)
Ole Miss v. South Carolina, 6:30/ESPNU (PJ Dozier, Sindarious Thornwell)
Washington v. Stanford, 8pm/PAC12 (Markelle Fultz, Matthise Thybulle)
Texas Tech v. Oklahoma, 8:30/ESPNU (Khadeen Lattin)
#21 St. Mary's v. #5 Gonzaga, 10pm/ESPN2 (John Collins)
Oregon St. v. #13 Oregon, 10:30/PAC12 (Jordan Bell, Dillon Brooks)

Sunday, January 15th
Rutgers v. Indiana, noon/BTN (Thomas Bryant Jr., OG Anunoby)
Michigan St. v. Oregon St., 1:30/CBS (Miles Bridges, Nick Ward)
SMU v. Tulane, 6pm/CBSSN (Semi Ojeleye, Shake Milton)
Georgia Tech v. NC State, 6:30/ESPNU (Dennis Smith, Jr.)
Iowa v. Northwestern, 7:30/BTN (Peter Jok)
#25 USC v. Colorado, 8:30/ESPNU (DeAnthony Melton) (Derrick White)

[HankTheTank]

i guess CoreyGallagher and i are the only ones on the Frank the Tank bandwagon. Not as quick as DSJ or Fox, but has a build, once filled out will be a tank with elite defensive potential, and looks like he could have an advanced midrange and 3 ball. Could play the 1 or the 2 depending on the rotation

Nah, I think/hope everyone here realizes he is one of those can't go wrong (:)) top 8 picks in this draft. He is pretty much a consensus top 3-5 pick for all the hipsters on liberty ballers from what I gather. His wingspan is off the charts, but his film is Bigfoot quality. Will be interested to see how he looks when he works out in the US.

[smittybanton]

i guess CoreyGallagher and i are the only ones on the Frank the Tank bandwagon. Not as quick as DSJ or Fox, but has a build, once filled out will be a tank with elite defensive potential, and looks like he could have an advanced midrange and 3 ball. Could play the 1 or the 2 depending on the rotation

Nah, I think/hope everyone here realizes he is one of those can't go wrong (:)) top 8 picks in this draft. He is pretty much a consensus top 3-5 pick for all the hipsters on liberty ballers from what I gather. His wingspan is off the charts, but his film is Bigfoot quality. Will be interested to see how he looks when he works out in the US.

[deleted]

[Kobblehead]

Josh Jackson is still the runaway #1, at this point.

[LloydFree]

Another chance to see Isaac against a good team today. FSU at UNC today at 14:00.

[Kobblehead]

Isaac's defense has been really impressive in the early going of the season. The fact that he possesses a jumper that he isn't fully letting loose yet is really encouraging. His bloom could be spectacular.

[LloydFree]

Isaac's defense has been really impressive in the early going of the season. The fact that he possesses a jumper that he isn't fully letting loose yet is really encouraging. His bloom could be spectacular.

Isaac isn't eye popping during college games, but he is the type of talent that will jump when the season ends because in workouts evaluators will see he has above average NBA level length, athleticism and skills for his size.

[Kobblehead]

Yup. The most important thing is establishing all the base stuff. Like he's already defending consistently and hitting all the right percentages with his shooting. He's ahead of where a freshman Otto Porter was in that regard.

[phiphan]

Yeah it may be a product of us dropping spots in the lotto, but I'm really warming up to Isaac. My biggest concern is whether he can guard NBA 3s. He's a fit offensively since he's a good cutter, can shoot, and is willing to play a role.

[Unbreakable99]

Let's say the Sixers do in fact (not likely) pick where all the PGs of Ball Fultz Fox Smith Frank are all gone. Who is the next best PG? We do need a PG.

[Kobblehead]

Our PG options are essentially endless, given the lack of traditionality we need at that spot thanks to Ben Simmons.

Ideally, we just need a shooter than can compete on the defensive end. We could potentially get that guy in the 2nd round.

- Jordan Woodard
- Frank Mason
- Joel Berry

[dkj5061]

Yeah it may be a product of us dropping spots in the lotto, but I'm really warming up to Isaac. My biggest concern is whether he can guard NBA 3s. He's a fit offensively since he's a good cutter, can shoot, and is willing to play a role.

Worst case, we could have him guard 4's and put Simmons on 3's if we need to. I have a feeling Simmons will surprise a lot of people on the defensive end.

[Negrodamus]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLS02DrMDww6eXWclELSaH9KziqtiqRD4z

Even though they all seem to be highlights, I'm getting on board with Frank after watching more of him. As long as the shot is legit, he has the length and defensive instincts that would make us essentially unstoppable on defense. Worth watching the whole playlist.

[SelfishPlayer]

Our PG options are essentially endless, given the lack of traditionality we need at that spot thanks to Ben Simmons.

Ideally, we just need a shooter than can compete on the defensive end. We could potentially get that guy in the 2nd round.

- Jordan Woodard
- Frank Mason
- Joel Berry

No, the Sixers need speed too. Ben Simmons is no Lebron James athletically. He's just a PF athletically. Simmons has the potential to be the best outlet passer from the PF position ever. TLC is about the only player on the roster that has wheels enough to beat the defense in transition to a level that's above average for his position. Well Embiid and Noel too, but it's a different kind of speed and skill at the PG position.

I also think that you have been watching too much football with talk of getting ANYONE in the second round to build with. 2nd rounders are lucky picks when they develop. How many starting PGs are there in the NBA (21016-17) that were 2nd round picks?