Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[AirP.]

Maybe not to get a true megastar. But if you keep Jimmy in a mini tank, really don't need a megastar. Just need another Jimmy or Gordon Hayward, or Noah type find, both who were drafted at 9.

Come on. They had the #2 pick and came away with Tyrus and someone they barely used. They traded multiple mid 1st rounders to take McDermott at 11 and look how that's turned out. There's a lot of luck in the draft and the higher up you are, the better your chances are.

In a mini tank the Bulls would have their own lottery pick, possibly the King pick around 10-15, then potentially a 3rd pick from shopping Taj/Doug/Mirotic. Plus a fair bit of money in FA.

Jimmy's great deal is a luxury first block, because you can clear half the team off, and he alone keeps your floor around 35 wins. Heck many players on the roster right now aren't that much better than replacement players. We just think they are because of 'potential'. But a guy like Doug McDermott, he's not doing anything for us nightly more than a minimum rent Morrow type. And Niko isn't much better.

What? You're betting on "hitting" with all draft picks and having them all really producing in 2 seasons to convince Jimmy to stay and even if he does stay, that's going to be a MASSIVE hit on the cap. He's on a great contract right now and look what the FO did, they "rented" 2 older players instead of investing in a younger player to team up with Butler. I hated the idea of maxing someone like H.Barnes but had they done that Chicago would have had 2 really good pieces moving forward which makes getting the right role players much easier.

At this point, Chicago should be trying to get proven young talent in the NBA instead of swinging and probably missing(or at least having to develop over multiple years) with Butler already on the roster... Both Noel and B.Knight have shown they can play in this league(even if Knight is doing bad this year) so why not give up some future assets, use your cap to resign Noel, Mirotic, MCW and Gibson and have a good solid core moving forward? I'd absolutely give up whatever 1st round picks Chicago has for the next few years to move forward with a core of Knight, Wade, Butler, Mirotic and Noel with MCW, Portis and Valentine in the rotation.

[weneeda2guard]

Ibaka isn't a center, but neither is Tristan Thompson, the staring center for the defending NBA champs. And the Warriors play a center for about 1/2 the game, of course Pachulia is pretty special...

Why did Hayward want to go to Charlotte in the summer of 2014, to play for a 43-win team with zero all-stars on the roster?

Why should 28 teams even try, since nobody is beating Cleveland or Golden State in the next 5 years?

Why did the 2011 Mavericks and 2014 Spurs even bother showing up for the NBA Finals, since nobody could be Miami with all their superstars?

Not all 28 teams have no chance to beat those two teams over the next 5 years. Some teams have the talent and core now, to where if they added a couple pieces, could beat them. The bulls aren't one of them. They don't have the stars or even good long term role players to compete. They'd be a bottom 3-5 team without Butler.

All you need is a little forward thinking to see if you start rebuilding NOW, the team could be poised to compete in 3-5 years, which would coincide with the timeline of Lebron and the cavs falling out of contention. It makes perfect sense.

If the Cubs had no forward thinking and listened to the fans, who got some strange satisfaction from being a .500 ball club, they'd be a .500 ball club right now. Instead, they're at the beginning of what could be a dynasty.

People have to stop trying to use baseball and football circumstances as templates for what can take place in the NBA. The landscapes are just way too different to make the comparison. The possibilities of going from worst to 1st in MLB and NFL are just far greater in those sports, that is why you can find among those sports wild card teams 9-7 teams who have won super bowls and world series, but you can't find any 8th, 7th seeds in the nba who have won a title. Because the NBA is about best talent, and if you don't have a clear top 3 player you better have a very deep team and a helluva coach i.e 04 pistons, 08 celtics, 11 dallas and 14 spurs team.

The cap situations are different as well and play a huge role in how fast a title team can be built, cap situatons, regulations in cutting and waiving players make it possible for 1 team to load up one off season , in contrast the nba is so difficult to get out of bad contracts without eating or losing assets in the process. It's just very different situations and is a bad premises to base what the bulls should do going forward.

[Darius Miles Davis]

It's worth noting, I suppose, that our current roster is not winning games without Butler.

[TheStig]

Can anyone put together a plan for how this team built around butler can win a championship?

Not vague talk about a star or two joining. Who coupd join, when they'd join, who the bulls would give up or lose due to salary cap and why that team would beat golden state or Cleveland during jimmys prime years?

Trade Lopez for Bogut's expiring deal

Give a team with cap space $3.5 million and a 2nd round pick to eat Rondo's $3 million guarantee next season

Have Wade opt out and resign for 3 years, $45 million

Sign Hayward to the max

Sign Ibaka 4 years starting at $20 million

Sign Pachulia with the room MLE

Hayward 30,000,000
Ibaka 20,000,000
Butler 18,696,918
Wade 14,000,000
Mirotic 8,673,675 (cap hold)
McDermott 3,294,994
Pachulia Room MLE
Valentine 2,186,400
Grant 1,713,840
Portis 1,516,320
Felicio 1,214,746 (cap hold)
1st round pick 1,000,000
Zipser 905,249
TOTAL $103,202,142

Ibaka
Mirotic
Hayward
Butler
Grant

Pachulia
Felicio
McDermott
Wade
Valentine

Portis, Zipser, 1st round pick

Perhaps after they're done with all that, they can pull a bunny out of their @ss. This plan has 0% chance of happening.

[TheStig]

The problem with rebuilding around Butler isn't Butler. He's an excellent player. Top 10-15. The problem is that the rest of this roster is either old, expiring or sucks. Or even worse, a combination of both. The Best this team can hope for in FA is a overpaid role player. The best we look forward to in the draft is a mid first. And we all know the FO isn't pulling off a blockbuster deal for a star. So really, this team is stuck where it is. The Rondo's and Wade's might get a little better but the cast will be middling at best. There is just no way in this current climate that I can see this team getting significantly better. I can see them riding out Jimmy's deal till he's over 30 and looking for 200 million and then letting him walk and rebuilding.

[Jimako10]

I just want to say I'm the president of the "Tank with Butler" plan. This is what I posted back in August.

This is the way I see it. Let's say that they had gone with the rebuild/tank with Butler plan. With Rose, you dump him for expirings or just let him expire next year instead of taking on more salary. You trade Taj, you offer Mirotic a reasonable extension, if he doesn't accept, then you trade him as well. There's no point in keeping anyone that's not signed past this year who isn't part of the future. Between the 2 of them, I'd say it's reasonable to project they'd return at least 1 first round pick. You sign only 1 year stop-gap players to fill the roster. Then you have Rose (or stop gap PG)/Butler/McD/Portis/Felicio as your starters. You got Valentine and a bunch of scrubs for the bench. That to me is easily a bottom 5 team, even with Butler. IMO the East is a lot stronger than in years past, there's only really 2 teams that you can guarantee won't make the playoffs (PHI/BKN). I think the above scenario pretty easily places them in the bottom 5-6 of the league, if not worse.

Now your going into the off season with a probable top 5-6 pick, another 1st from Mirotic/Taj trade, possibly even the SAC pick, along with increased value (hopefully) from McD/Portis/Valentine/Felicio.

Here are your options A and B at this point.

Option A) You try to form a big 3 with Butler. You sell to max FAs that you could join a big city with a star player in his prime and create a super team. You sell that you have assets like a top 5 pick and youth that could be traded to fill out the rest of the roster with some solid depth/complimentary vet role players. You go all in. I think this a very reasonable sell job. Hell you can attract 1 max FA, trade for a 3rd high impact player, and fill out the rest of the roster in FA as well. If you can't attract even one max FA, then you go to.....

Option B) You blow it up. You trade Butler for a king's ransom, and hopefully after a season where he'd probably drop 25/5/5, it would be easier this time around to get that king's ransom. The 2017 draft is loaded, you'd get your own top 5 pick, picks from a potential Butler trade, the Taj/Miro pick, maybe the SAC pick as well, and you are loaded for a total rebuild. Much better off than trading Butler this past off season IMO.

That to me would have been a much better course of action with true flexibility. What we are doing now is treadmilling for a chance at a playoff birth so they can get swept in the 1st round, and I'm supposed to believe a 36 year old former star is going to help attract a max FA. It's just not going to happen....

Side note: From your point that Butler would be disgruntled with a crap team around him. I personally think there's a better chance he'll be disgruntled playing with Rondo and Wade due to fit rather than the surrounding youth who will practically do whatever he tells them to do.

I would amend that if they had gone this route, Butler would have been dropping 30/8/8 instead of 25/5/5, since he's practically doing that right now. I would also consider keeping Butler for another year to give it another crack to build around him before blowing it up, since he's clearly taken another step, but it would depend on what sort offers he would get.

If you guys want to start a petition to have me as GM, I would not mind.

[Rerisen]

What? You're betting on "hitting" with all draft picks and having them all really producing in 2 seasons

No, I was just listing the assets, I don't want to use the draft picks on kids at all if we are building around Jimmy, bundle them with Doug, Taj, Niko whatever, and get proven talent right now that we know has skills that balance with what we need.

[TheStig]

What? You're betting on "hitting" with all draft picks and having them all really producing in 2 seasons

No, I was just listing the assets, I don't want to use the draft picks on kids at all if we are building around Jimmy, bundle them with Doug, Taj, Niko whatever, and get proven talent right now that we know has skills that balance with what we need.

Who exactly are you getting for a mid 1st? The Cavs just traded MDJ and a 1st for Korver. Do we need a Korver type?

The absolute best deal I can see the Bulls making is Milsap for Gibson, Niko and a 1st or two. Does that get this team to the ECF? Doubtful. Do you want to give Milsap 200 million in the offseason?

[Am2626]

Does anyone here think they'd take the #1 pick for Butler in a straight swap to give themselves another few years of burning chicago down from within & saving their jobs?

They won't be allowed to make a desperate move to buy themselves years, because the one that runs the real agenda in Chicago is Jerry Reinsdorf. And he wants competitive teams, fans in the seats, and at least a few games of home playoff revenue.

Even when Jimmy was being shopped in the summer, some reports were that the Bulls were looking for players that would keep them competitive right now, and not some kind of long view rebuild team, not just a plethora of picks.

In other words he wasn't being shopped because the team had hit a dead end and wanted to start over, but rather because his attitude was in question, and they maybe were just thinking about bringing in equal but different talent, to build around.

I'm sure a pick was part of that, but in addition they wanted some players that would prevent them from going all the way into the cellar. Which to me sounds like a high asking price unlikely to be fulfilled.

The thing I don't understand about the concern for having fans in the seats is that even with a complete rebuild, the Bulls will continue to put fans in the seats. The Bulls led the league in attendance during this Baby Bulls years and the Bulls fans are among the most loyal. I don't see a rebuild ever changing that.

[Am2626]

Although, if the Bulls do trade Butler, Bulls fans can finally unite again. I feel like the fan base is somewhat split with Butler fans (like myself) vs salty homer die-hard Rose fans

Bulls fans will unite when GarPax are fired. We need fresh start in our organization. That's a clear as it can be.

We need modern front office with new ideas, new vision who will get modern NBA players. Long and athletic. Either via draft or FA. There must be a plan. Not throw shtick on the wall and see what sticks on to it. And pie in sky plans.

The problem is much bigger than that. It is an organizational problem that goes all the way to the top. The Bulls really need to have a new Ownership Group. I don't see Michael Reinsdorf being the next Rocky Wirtz who completely changed the Blackhawks organization when he took over for his father. Michael Reinsdorf is just going to be an extension of Jerry. He will be loyal to his friends who happens to be Gar Foreman. Nothing is going to change with this organization. That's pretty sad and disappointing.

[pb-ceo]

if they try a "mini" tank by retaining butler, it will be a disaster. treadmill team at best. butler gets older closer to end of his contract and probably will want out one way or the other.

[Chitownbulls]

Should have traded Noahs garbage playing arsh for Joel Embiid.....you know, the guy 2 years ago everybody thought sucked lol haha

Now hes the best center in the EAST.

SEE THE FUTURE GARPAX....its not that hard if you do your homework

[Rerisen]

The thing I don't understand about the concern for having fans in the seats is that even with a complete rebuild, the Bulls will continue to put fans in the seats. The Bulls led the league in attendance during this Baby Bulls years and the Bulls fans are among the most loyal. I don't see a rebuild ever changing that.

Much different time. Season ticket waiting lists were backlogged for years at that point due to the dynasty just ending. The Bulls brand name was much stronger and associated with winning.

3 of 4 years of baby Bulls type futility, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the crowds thinning out.

[fleet]

The thing I don't understand about the concern for having fans in the seats is that even with a complete rebuild, the Bulls will continue to put fans in the seats. The Bulls led the league in attendance during this Baby Bulls years and the Bulls fans are among the most loyal. I don't see a rebuild ever changing that.

Much different time. Season ticket waiting lists were backlogged for years at that point due to the dynasty just ending. The Bulls brand name was much stronger and associated with winning.

3 of 4 years of baby Bulls type futility, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the crowds thinning out.

Good. All those corporate foofy poofy fake fans can go. They dont cheer anyway. Probably dont even know the roster.

**** Jerry Reinsdorf's gate receipts.

[Action Paxson]

The Bulls need to pounce on the buy-low guys out there if they are going to hold onto Butler. Use your expendable pieces (Taj, Valentine, Grant, Lopez) to add or get picks to add to a Knight for Rondo and Noel for Mirotic deadline deal. You can sell me on that. That's more or less how Toronto turned themselves into the 2nd best team in the East.

Unless Boston is going to give up their next two Brooklyn picks, I don't see a Butler trade that makes sense at this time. It is just a bad time to be a seller, and Boston has the leverage to wait until Sacramento, Chicago, or Indiana folds and decides to sell their star. They can offer the best package for at least another year and a half.

[GetBuLLish]

I think I'm changing my tune on whether to trade Butler. He's just too damn good and it would probably be way too risky to pull off.

[GimmeDat]

Should have traded Noahs garbage playing arsh for Joel Embiid.....you know, the guy 2 years ago everybody thought sucked lol haha

Now hes the best center in the EAST.

SEE THE FUTURE GARPAX....its not that hard if you do your homework

Yeah, that was never on the table.

[BR0D1E86]

Should have traded Noahs garbage playing arsh for Joel Embiid.....you know, the guy 2 years ago everybody thought sucked lol haha

Now hes the best center in the EAST.

SEE THE FUTURE GARPAX....its not that hard if you do your homework

Similarly we probably should have traded Jalen Rose for Lebron before he took off, since the other team would have had roughly equal interest to the trade you mention.

[Rerisen]

Butler is sitting at just a hair under 30 PER in January and that is counting his crappy 0-6 flu game.

Whatever this guy's ceiling is, I don't think we've seen it.

[Red Larrivee]

Should have traded Noahs garbage playing arsh for Joel Embiid.....you know, the guy 2 years ago everybody thought sucked lol haha

Now hes the best center in the EAST.

SEE THE FUTURE GARPAX....its not that hard if you do your homework

Wow, you're smart.