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Pistolpete1947 wrote:So do you believe that Whitehead and Lin are interchangeable? If I don't agree I'm a problem?
Elmhurst NY wrote:It's cute that the Net fans who want to send IWH and RHJ to the D-League or cut Dinwiddie are the same ones that in the past have cried about Mr. 4th quarter not getting a chance to play through his dumb mistakes.
You know... if you migrant fans (including me to a degree) are unwanted and hated by every forum you join maybe the problem lies with you and not everybody else.
Pistolpete1947 wrote:TinmanZBoy wrote:Elmhurst NY wrote:It's cute that the Net fans who want to send IWH and RHJ to the D-League or cut Dinwiddie are the same ones that in the past have cried about Mr. 4th quarter not getting a chance to play through his dumb mistakes.
You know... if you migrant fans (including me to a degree) are unwanted and hated by every forum you join maybe the problem lies with you and not everybody else.
yes, so true... Lin fans' problem is they never realize their problems, including "me"...lol
Some "old fans" have bigger problems. At least we try to discus differences of opinion without swearing, calling names and demeaning others.
TTNN wrote:say what you want, it is really hard to understand what Kenny Atkinson is doing. It is openly said by Marks, Lin, and other media that the team is not emphasis on winning, but it is really hard to get what they are doing, what they are trying to develop, and I don't get why they have to make it so hard to tell the fans what they are trying to achieve.
Looking at Nets' 5 men line up. Out of 39 games played, Kenny had used more than 250 of 5 man line up. And no 5-man line up in Nets has shown up in more than 20 games, and the most played 5-man lineup has been played together in 173 min. As a comparison, the most played together lineup in the league was from Minnesota Timberwolf, and that lineup showed up in 32 games and played together in 720 min.
Normally if you want to develop a team, you play a relatively fixed rotation for a certain of time, so players start to build up chemistry and get comfortable, and play their role in that lineup. But Kenny looks like purposely want them not to get used to each other, and constantly change them up. So this team other than that line up with 173 min together, the second most played 5 man lineup played together only for 51 min, and was shown up in 11 games only. And yes, no any 5 man lineup averaged more than 10 min per game. So that could not blame on injuries which force lineup changes, Kenny just doesn't play any combination long time in a game, whether that lineup works or not.
How could we complain that the team has high TOs? They could never get comfortable to play with each other since the lineups are constantly changing, they could not build chemistry this way, with this keep changing rotation, their role will change too, no wonder the team seemed not disciplined, it is just a total chaos.
There is no reason for this team to tank, but it is really hard to understand why Kenny ran the team this way.
Prokorov wrote:Pistolpete1947 wrote:So do you believe that Whitehead and Lin are interchangeable? If I don't agree I'm a problem?
who said they were interchangeable?
everyone said lin is a big upgrade once he is back.
the point is, it doesnt matter since we are so bad that even the upgrade from whitehead/dinwiddie to Lin isnt enough to turn these losses into wins. maybe 1 or 2 but not many
Prokorov wrote:Pistolpete1947 wrote:TinmanZBoy wrote:
yes, so true... Lin fans' problem is they never realize their problems, including "me"...lol
Some "old fans" have bigger problems. At least we try to discus differences of opinion without swearing, calling names and demeaning others.
not sure when i did that.... and we already had to suspend a lin fan for cursing
Paradise wrote:We don't have any bias towards Lin fans or whatever. We simply want to get across that this is an organic rebuild.
Similar to the rebuild the Raptors did trying to wash away the soft culture led by Bargnani and Colangelo. This season is DEVELOPMENT. It was always going to be about development.
Every night, Whitehead and RHJ compete well defensively against an elite team or group of stars. That's a win. That furthers their development.
It's standard for rookies and sophomores to get off to inconsistent starts to their careers. Everyone doesn't come in efficient and effective right away. That's what separates the generational stars from the rest of the pack. It doesn't mean they won't develop into players in their own right.
We could easily point to Lin as an example. If we keep that idea of a short leash for the rookies or coach then we should with him too, right? It's only fair.
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Paradise wrote:We don't have any bias towards Lin fans or whatever. We simply want to get across that this is an organic rebuild.
Similar to the rebuild the Raptors did trying to wash away the soft culture led by Bargnani and Colangelo. This season is DEVELOPMENT. It was always going to be about development.
Every night, Whitehead and RHJ compete well defensively against an elite team or group of stars. That's a win. That furthers their development. Every time, McCullough has a good game in the afternoon and then re-joins the team and continues to soak up what we're trying to accomplish here, he adds to his development.
It's standard for rookies and sophomores to get off to inconsistent starts to their careers. Everyone doesn't come in efficient and effective right away. That's what separates the generational stars and top tier role players from the rest of the pack. It doesn't mean they won't develop into players in their own right or can't be just as good. Brandon Jennings had 55 in his rookie season...he's a journeyman a few years later. You can't survive in this league by being a scorer only. You have to defend, rebound, assist. The nights the youngsters don't do that and don't show any effort is when they should be crucified or even assigned to the NBDL.
We could easily point to Lin as an example. If we keep that idea of a short leash for the rookies or coach then we should with him too, right? It's only fair.
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Prokorov wrote:TTNN wrote:say what you want, it is really hard to understand what Kenny Atkinson is doing. It is openly said by Marks, Lin, and other media that the team is not emphasis on winning, but it is really hard to get what they are doing, what they are trying to develop, and I don't get why they have to make it so hard to tell the fans what they are trying to achieve.
what is so hard to understand... you just pointed out how the coach, gm, and players have all pointed out this season is not about winning. its about develoment and laying the ground work and foundation for the future. about creating a sustainable system for the franchise... one that is all encompassing. from home and road housing to facilities, to a single offensive/defensive system run both inthe dleague and pro club. how they treat players families, how they treat medical conditions, their PR strategies, how they deal with season ticket holders, their reliance on analytics, their scouting.
that is ALOT and it all starts in year 1. on court production right now is not a priority. that sucks for newer fans. older fans know what happens when you rush things here and are more patient.Looking at Nets' 5 men line up. Out of 39 games played, Kenny had used more than 250 of 5 man line up. And no 5-man line up in Nets has shown up in more than 20 games, and the most played 5-man lineup has been played together in 173 min. As a comparison, the most played together lineup in the league was from Minnesota Timberwolf, and that lineup showed up in 32 games and played together in 720 min.
We have 15 guys who all need to play and play alot. then throw in injuries. you cant have a 15 man rotation with 48 minutes, so guys will be shuffled in and out of the rotationNormally if you want to develop a team, you play a relatively fixed rotation for a certain of time, so players start to build up chemistry and get comfortable, and play their role in that lineup. But Kenny looks like purposely want them not to get used to each other, and constantly change them up. So this team other than that line up with 173 min together, the second most played 5 man lineup played together only for 51 min, and was shown up in 11 games only. And yes, no any 5 man lineup averaged more than 10 min per game. So that could not blame on injuries which force lineup changes, Kenny just doesn't play any combination long time in a game, whether that lineup works or not.
Cant play a fixed rotation when you need 13-15 guys to get minutes. it has to and has changed to accomodate. its better to get guys 10-15 minutes over spurts of 10 games then it is to consistently get them 2-4 minutes.How could we complain that the team has high TOs? They could never get comfortable to play with each other since the lineups are constantly changing, they could not build chemistry this way, with this keep changing rotation, their role will change too, no wonder the team seemed not disciplined, it is just a total chaos.
There is no reason for this team to tank, but it is really hard to understand why Kenny ran the team this way.
we arent tanking, there is just no motivation to win when we can benefit so much more letting young guys play alot in meaningful minutes and play through mistakes.
young players + fastest pace in the league = turnovers. no way around it.
Prokorov wrote:Elmhurst NY wrote:It's cute that the Net fans who want to send IWH and RHJ to the D-League or cut Dinwiddie are the same ones that in the past have cried about Mr. 4th quarter not getting a chance to play through his dumb mistakes.
You know... if you migrant fans (including me to a degree) are unwanted and hated by every forum you join maybe the problem lies with you and not everybody else.
TTNN wrote:Prokorov wrote:TTNN wrote:say what you want, it is really hard to understand what Kenny Atkinson is doing. It is openly said by Marks, Lin, and other media that the team is not emphasis on winning, but it is really hard to get what they are doing, what they are trying to develop, and I don't get why they have to make it so hard to tell the fans what they are trying to achieve.
what is so hard to understand... you just pointed out how the coach, gm, and players have all pointed out this season is not about winning. its about develoment and laying the ground work and foundation for the future. about creating a sustainable system for the franchise... one that is all encompassing. from home and road housing to facilities, to a single offensive/defensive system run both inthe dleague and pro club. how they treat players families, how they treat medical conditions, their PR strategies, how they deal with season ticket holders, their reliance on analytics, their scouting.
that is ALOT and it all starts in year 1. on court production right now is not a priority. that sucks for newer fans. older fans know what happens when you rush things here and are more patient.Looking at Nets' 5 men line up. Out of 39 games played, Kenny had used more than 250 of 5 man line up. And no 5-man line up in Nets has shown up in more than 20 games, and the most played 5-man lineup has been played together in 173 min. As a comparison, the most played together lineup in the league was from Minnesota Timberwolf, and that lineup showed up in 32 games and played together in 720 min.
We have 15 guys who all need to play and play alot. then throw in injuries. you cant have a 15 man rotation with 48 minutes, so guys will be shuffled in and out of the rotationNormally if you want to develop a team, you play a relatively fixed rotation for a certain of time, so players start to build up chemistry and get comfortable, and play their role in that lineup. But Kenny looks like purposely want them not to get used to each other, and constantly change them up. So this team other than that line up with 173 min together, the second most played 5 man lineup played together only for 51 min, and was shown up in 11 games only. And yes, no any 5 man lineup averaged more than 10 min per game. So that could not blame on injuries which force lineup changes, Kenny just doesn't play any combination long time in a game, whether that lineup works or not.
Cant play a fixed rotation when you need 13-15 guys to get minutes. it has to and has changed to accomodate. its better to get guys 10-15 minutes over spurts of 10 games then it is to consistently get them 2-4 minutes.How could we complain that the team has high TOs? They could never get comfortable to play with each other since the lineups are constantly changing, they could not build chemistry this way, with this keep changing rotation, their role will change too, no wonder the team seemed not disciplined, it is just a total chaos.
There is no reason for this team to tank, but it is really hard to understand why Kenny ran the team this way.
we arent tanking, there is just no motivation to win when we can benefit so much more letting young guys play alot in meaningful minutes and play through mistakes.
young players + fastest pace in the league = turnovers. no way around it.
I think I did not make my self clear enough. I obviously could understand that the team is not focusing on winning but on developing. What's I'm confused or not understand is find out what exactly is the coach developing on. At least that to me is a bit not clear, and looks a bit random.
For instance, if you are trying to develop young players, and not focusing on win and lose, you should not play Foye or Schola, and should call back CMC.
Or if you are trying to develop a system, and a style of play, then you should not change lineup so frequent, and then play players in fixed lineup as much as possible, so they are used to the positions and styles, and their teammates, and they get to know the system better before they try to fit into other players. And in those cases you want some vets play together with young players to ensure the system ran the right way.
But now, it looks like for the young players, like for IW, he will need to ran the system, and he will need to ran the system with constantly changing teammates, and his teammates are constantly changing their positions, and roles. So that makes the goal for a young player on the floor very unclear and makes the game much harder for them.
That's why i have the question on what exactly is the direction of the development at this time?
It is almost half into the season, and I don't think just a simple "develop" is good enough explanation on what they are doing, they should at least share some of their vision of the team's direction.
MrDollarBills wrote:
I don't think Net fans and Lin fans are in the same boat. Not when the coaches, young players all get unfairly trashed because people who have no grasp of the Nets' situation came into this thinking things would be rosy when we warned you guys that it wasn't going to be a smooth ride. When you have commentary about players' wasting Lin's minutes, or comments wanting to just toss 1st/2nd year players into the street because they aren't appeasing this odd instant gratification complex that -some- new fans have on here, that is a clear sign that this fanbase as constituted isn't really on the same page. Long time fans who understand what Marks and Kenny are trying to do are looking towards the payoff in 2019 and beyond, new fans are only thinking about right now.
You guys can get pissed with Kenny all you want. He isn't going anywhere, and the young guys will get time to develop their games even if it means that it may cost us a possession here or there. You can either stay mad, or you can calm down, buy into the process, and see where this ride goes...but that would require more than a year and a half investment.
TTNN wrote:I have seen 50-50 Nets fans want to trade everybody, want to fire the coach too. I don't see that's Lin fan's characteristic in wanting to get rid of all the players on this team.
MrDollarBills wrote:yeah and here lies the irony, some fans have no patience for any of our young guys and want them dumped to where they can't be seen
MrDollarBills wrote:but were upset when Lin wasn't afforded chances to play through the mistakes in past destinations. It's outright hypocrisy and its why I say, SOME, not all, folks on here have an agenda behind their "analysis" of our players.
MrDollarBills wrote:Trying to paint us long time fans as the bad guys because we look at some of the real suspect commentary on here sideways isn't any more right than one of us cussing or being condescending in comments.
Prokorov wrote:Elmhurst NY wrote:It's cute that the Net fans who want to send IWH and RHJ to the D-League or cut Dinwiddie are the same ones that in the past have cried about Mr. 4th quarter not getting a chance to play through his dumb mistakes.
You know... if you migrant fans (including me to a degree) are unwanted and hated by every forum you join maybe the problem lies with you and not everybody else.
Roy Tarpley wrote:MrDollarBills wrote:yeah and here lies the irony, some fans have no patience for any of our young guys and want them dumped to where they can't be seen
I can't think of a single poster who categorically has no patience for any of our young guys. I think there's universal support for Levert.MrDollarBills wrote:but were upset when Lin wasn't afforded chances to play through the mistakes in past destinations. It's outright hypocrisy and its why I say, SOME, not all, folks on here have an agenda behind their "analysis" of our players.
You can't use the "hypocrisy" card -- Lin is such a unique case and can't be compared to any Net rookie. I think pre-Linsanity, most Lin fans probably understood that it'd be tough for him to get a shot. After Linsanity, I think it's reasonable that people gave him extra slack. If Whitehead, for example, had a Linsanity type period (the 136 points scored by Lin in his first five starts were the most by any player since the NBA and ABA merged in 1976), then people would be clamoring for Whitehead to get chances to play through mistakes too.MrDollarBills wrote:Trying to paint us long time fans as the bad guys because we look at some of the real suspect commentary on here sideways isn't any more right than one of us cussing or being condescending in comments.
Most "new fans" only want to debate the issues, without being lumped into a monolithic group. For example, I'm not sanguine on Whitehead but I want to see RHJ/CLV start. I don't want the extra obligation of defending the anti-RHJ types. I feel like it's the "long time" fans that consistently try to segregate fans into new and old.
If Idiot X says "RHJ is wasting Lin's minutes," then you can say "Idiot X, that was a moronic comment." GTFO with the "Fans of a certain player have an agenda..." I guarantee you I will never use the terms "long time fans" or "new fans" again UNLESS invoked by someone else.
Roy Tarpley wrote:MrDollarBills wrote:yeah and here lies the irony, some fans have no patience for any of our young guys and want them dumped to where they can't be seen
I can't think of a single poster who categorically has no patience for any of our young guys. I think there's universal support for Levert.
MrDollarBills wrote:but were upset when Lin wasn't afforded chances to play through the mistakes in past destinations. It's outright hypocrisy and its why I say, SOME, not all, folks on here have an agenda behind their "analysis" of our players.
You can't use the "hypocrisy" card -- Lin is such a unique case and can't be compared to any Net rookie. I think pre-Linsanity, most Lin fans probably understood that it'd be tough for him to get a shot. After Linsanity, I think it's reasonable that people gave him extra slack. If Whitehead, for example, had a Linsanity type period (the 136 points scored by Lin in his first five starts were the most by any player since the NBA and ABA merged in 1976), then people would be clamoring for Whitehead to get chances to play through mistakes too.
@ Lin being a "unique" case. Yeah yeah Jeremy Lin is so special right 
Yeah the guy had a good stretch of games. Great. But what has he done since then? Not much. But that's besides the fact...the hypocrisy still stands, you guys bitch and whine about how Houston and LA didn't allow Lin to not play through mistakes yet there's zero empathy for other young players trying to cut their teeth in their first and second years...I can damn well use the card. If Lin never got a chance, which came due to injury, he probably wouldn't even be in the NBA right now. But i guess since you folks only care about one player, why bother affording young guys on this team a chance to learn for the better health of the roster long term.MrDollarBills wrote:Trying to paint us long time fans as the bad guys because we look at some of the real suspect commentary on here sideways isn't any more right than one of us cussing or being condescending in comments.
Most "new fans" only want to debate the issues, without being lumped into a monolithic group. For example, I'm not sanguine on Whitehead but I want to see RHJ/CLV start. I don't want the extra obligation of defending the anti-RHJ types. I feel like it's the "long time" fans that consistently try to segregate fans into new and old.
If Idiot X says "RHJ is wasting Lin's minutes," then you can say "Idiot X, that was a moronic comment." GTFO with the "Fans of a certain player have an agenda..." I guarantee you I will never use the terms "long time fans" or "new fans" again UNLESS invoked by someone else.
qiantom wrote:Prokorov wrote:Elmhurst NY wrote:It's cute that the Net fans who want to send IWH and RHJ to the D-League or cut Dinwiddie are the same ones that in the past have cried about Mr. 4th quarter not getting a chance to play through his dumb mistakes.
You know... if you migrant fans (including me to a degree) are unwanted and hated by every forum you join maybe the problem lies with you and not everybody else.
Except nobody has been talking about sending IWH or RHJ to the D-League recently, or cutting Dinwiddie. That was obviously a bait and you all fell for it. Sad...