Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

[nytonm]

Knick fan here. Melo is not a 3 anymore. I dont see how Melo Griffin Jordan works as a front court. Especially when you're trying to get by Kawhi and Durant. Also I think the only thing you have that makes a trade work is Blake. Even though Blakes a better player I think Melo would actually be a better fit with Paul and Jordan. Still i understand not wanting to do Blake for Melo straight up. Maybe Blake can be sent to a 3rd team for assets and the Clippers can get some of those too.

[LACtdom]

I think Melo can still play the 3. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that if he was on a contender he would actually start trying on D. Would Melo, Blake and DJ work? Maybe not but there is this cool new thing called staggering minutes that I can't wait for Doc to try. If we made sure that at all times, at least Blake or Melo was on the floor. We could go small with Melo at PF and Blake at C. It would give us some nice options. I'm open to trading Blake but only if we got a nice deal. Like Melo + AA or someone similar so we could rock: CP, JJ, Someone new, Melo, DJ.

[nickhx2]

lmao cool new thing indeed

funny thing is i think doc started doing it more with blake, but we still see all bench lineups which will be especially problematic for us in the playoffs if jamal crawford is still playing big minutes.

but yes overall if we did somehow trade for anthony i think absolutely one of them has to come off the bench. anthony probably would throw a giant fit over that, and blake probably wouldn't (and i think him coming off the bench would be better if a trade were to happen). but i also wouldn't want to do anything to mess with blake in a contract year so there's pretty much no way blake's coming off the bench and anthony isn't.

the team can live with carmelo anthony being dramatic and blake resigned to a deal. the team cannot live with carmelo anthony being happy and blake signing with another team. just no way you risk that.

[No-Man]

If I am the Knicks FO I'd be totally fine with;

Carmelo and whoever you like of Baker, N'Dour, Vujacic, and Plumlee, it can be all 4, it can be none, your decision (if they aren't in the trade 3 out of those 4 would end up getting cut, so it makes no difference for us)

for:

JCraw, gotta be Jamal because his last year is non-guaranteed and he is not a whiny guy like Austin, plus he is a well liked vet, even if I hate his game
Wes, needed for salary matching and makes sense with KP
Brice and Diamond, some youngsters back
Pierce (as a salary filler, he would get cut 100%, likely sign with BOS and retire after the season I'd guess) or LRMAM+Anderson or Bass, any of those needs to be in for salary purposes.
an 2021 unprotected 1st

Dunno if you guys would do that, but it works money-wise.

[Marty McFly]

Knick fan here. Melo is not a 3 anymore. I dont see how Melo Griffin Jordan works as a front court. Especially when you're trying to get by Kawhi and Durant. Also I think the only thing you have that makes a trade work is Blake. Even though Blakes a better player I think Melo would actually be a better fit with Paul and Jordan. Still i understand not wanting to do Blake for Melo straight up. Maybe Blake can be sent to a 3rd team for assets and the Clippers can get some of those too.

i'm in this boat as well (shocker). i don't know that boston would be willing to trade the nets 2017 1st AND jaylen brown, but i think that's a fair price if they're getting blake in return, with the clippers getting brown and melo.

clippers play melo at the 4 and brown at the 3.

knicks get a top lottery pick plus salary matches.

[QRich3]

If I am the Knicks FO I'd be totally fine with;

Carmelo and whoever you like of Baker, N'Dour, Vujacic, and Plumlee, it can be all 4, it can be none, your decision (if they aren't in the trade 3 out of those 4 would end up getting cut, so it makes no difference for us)

for:

JCraw, gotta be Jamal because his last year is non-guaranteed and he is not a whiny guy like Austin, plus he is a well liked vet, even if I hate his game
Wes, needed for salary matching and makes sense with KP
Brice and Diamond, some youngsters back
Pierce (as a salary filler, he would get cut 100%, likely sign with BOS and retire after the season I'd guess) or LRMAM+Anderson or Bass, any of those needs to be in for salary purposes.
an 2021 unprotected 1st

Dunno if you guys would do that, but it works money-wise.

I'd be completely fine with that, but unfortunately it doesn't work under the CBA salary-matching rules. It's a bit complicated, but because of Melo's trade kicker, his outgoing salary for the Knicks would be $24.5M, but his incoming salary for the Clippers would be slightly over $30M. And because of some weird CBA rule against hard-capped teams, he wouldn't be eligible to waive his trade kicker even if he wanted to, like other players have done in the past. And because the Clippers are indeed hard-capped at the apron, they can only add $2.5M in salary in any trade, and must be left with at least the 13 minimum players after the trade (so no 5-for-1 players trades).

It's very tricky to make it work, but any Melo trade would have to have 2 of Crawford/Rivers/Redick outgoing at the very least (and even then, it's still tricky to make it work).

I still don't think Melo would green light any trade, but if he ever does, I fully expect the Clippers FO to stupidly overpay and be left with a worse team and less future assets

[No-Man]

If I am the Knicks FO I'd be totally fine with;

Carmelo and whoever you like of Baker, N'Dour, Vujacic, and Plumlee, it can be all 4, it can be none, your decision (if they aren't in the trade 3 out of those 4 would end up getting cut, so it makes no difference for us)

for:

JCraw, gotta be Jamal because his last year is non-guaranteed and he is not a whiny guy like Austin, plus he is a well liked vet, even if I hate his game
Wes, needed for salary matching and makes sense with KP
Brice and Diamond, some youngsters back
Pierce (as a salary filler, he would get cut 100%, likely sign with BOS and retire after the season I'd guess) or LRMAM+Anderson or Bass, any of those needs to be in for salary purposes.
an 2021 unprotected 1st

Dunno if you guys would do that, but it works money-wise.

I'd be completely fine with that, but unfortunately it doesn't work under the CBA salary-matching rules. It's a bit complicated, but because of Melo's trade kicker, his outgoing salary for the Knicks would be $24.5M, but his incoming salary for the Clippers would be slightly over $30M. And because of some weird CBA rule against hard-capped teams, he wouldn't be eligible to waive his trade kicker even if he wanted to, like other players have done in the past. And because the Clippers are indeed hard-capped at the apron, they can only add $2.5M in salary in any trade, and must be left with at least the 13 minimum players after the trade (so no 5-for-1 players trades).

It's very tricky to make it work, but any Melo trade would have to have 2 of Crawford/Rivers/Redick outgoing at the very least (and even then, it's still tricky to make it work).

I still don't think Melo would green light any trade, but if he ever does, I fully expect the Clippers FO to stupidly overpay and be left with a worse team and less future assets

good to know, are you sure about that? like it works in ESPN trademachine, maybe it's not fully updated to those type of conditions

[QRich3]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. Can't search for the link right now, but read it a couple of times over the weekend, and the cbafaq confirms it:

Trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a taxpaying team wants to trade their $800,000 player for the player used in the example above, in the fourth season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, $150,000 of the trade bonus counts in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $800,000 player can accept up to $1,100,000 in return (see question number 83), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $1,150,000 in incoming salary.

...

If a team is capped at the "apron" ($4 million over the tax line) because it has used the Bi-Annual exception, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or (beginning in 2013-14) acquired a player in a sign-and-trade transaction, and wants to acquire a player whose salary added to his trade bonus exceeds the apron, then the trade bonus cannot be reduced (even with the player's consent); the trade is simply illegal.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q99

To make it work more realistically while tinkling with the trade machine, you can add Jennings' + Ndour's salary to Melo's, to make it count like Melo's real outgoing salary. That's what I do anyway

[Wammy Giveaway]

1. Melo could be the missing piece that puts the Clippers over the top. Will they beat the Warriors with Melo, no. But he helps shields the Clippers from an automatic sweep; six games at the most, seven if they're lucky. The cost to get him will be high.

2. The Clippers have to make a difficult decision. The only legal way to get Melo is to give up their coveted no. 1 draft pick whose highlight reels resuscitated the franchise and influenced David Stern to screw the Lakers. Blake Griffin has been the team's lucky charm to success. The greatest fear the Clippers have is turning back to the old losers if they traded him. But this is a championship they need to think about, their last chance for one as a matter of fact. They have two built-in excuses for sacrificing their savior: injuries and the Toronto punching incident. But, if the Clippers love him too much to the point they'd rather lose with him than win without him, we have to consider the farm trade.

3. My fellow colleague Lucas Hahn at Clips Nation presented a hypothetical trade where Griffin isn't sacrificed, but a piece of the bench. And a cupboard of draft picks:

Clippers trade: Jamal Crawford, Austin Rivers, Wesley Johnson, Brice Johnson, draft picks (2021 LAC 1st, 2023 LAC 1st, 2019 LAC 2nd, 2020 LAC 2nd, 2021 LAC 2nd, 2022 LAC 2nd, 2020 CLE 2nd, 2017 MIN 2nd, other future 2nds from Boston), cash considerations, draft swaps

To trade away their entire future for one shot at a championship, this is too much. But you know Doc would do this in an instant; his track record is full of knee-jerk reactions. More importantly, we have a problem. We know Doc will not trade his son; the very evidence being his December 30 ejection to the Rockets. There have also been a few suggestions about adding Paul Pierce to the pot. Forget about that, Doc has never made the conference finals without Pierce. He's been with him through the trenches too long, he can't stand to win without him. Add to that the Clipper's love for Griffin, and we could see something like a 6-for-1 trade. Something like this:

Clippers trade: Jamal Crawford, Wesley Johnson, Brice Johnson, Diamond Stone, Alan Anderson, Luc Mbah A Moute, draft picks (via other teams), cash considerations

Speights stays because he defeated the Clippers more as a championship teammate of the Warriors, their arch nemesis, than as a nuisance of the Grizzlies.

Felton stays because he defeated Doc's Celtics in the 2013 playoffs which prompted his departure from Boston.

Which draft picks the Knicks will get all depends on a possible third party player. Most likely the Celtics will be involved, but the Clippers will have to be careful as Doc is close friends with Danny Ainge, and Ainge is tingling to complete the Doc Rivers coaching trade by getting Griffin. Which would mean the aforementioned trade becomes totally moot.

4. Should they get Carmelo Anthony be it by hook or by crook; and whether an arm, leg, heart, or brain is cast off into the deadline oblivion, we have the Kevin Garnett thing to deal with. In the 2012-13 season, during a fracas between the Knicks and Celtics, Garnett trash talked Melo with, "Your wife tastes like Honey Nut Cheerios". While it's become something of an urban legend around inner circles, a Melo-KG alliance would be something to behold. Would they patch the beef? Does Melo become tough as nails under KG?

Something also to consider: I think the Knicks are hard capped. If they are, boy, the trade deadline is going to be something of legends this year.

[og15]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. Can't search for the link right now, but read it a couple of times over the weekend, and the cbafaq confirms it:

Trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a taxpaying team wants to trade their $800,000 player for the player used in the example above, in the fourth season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, $150,000 of the trade bonus counts in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $800,000 player can accept up to $1,100,000 in return (see question number 83), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $1,150,000 in incoming salary.

...

If a team is capped at the "apron" ($4 million over the tax line) because it has used the Bi-Annual exception, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or (beginning in 2013-14) acquired a player in a sign-and-trade transaction, and wants to acquire a player whose salary added to his trade bonus exceeds the apron, then the trade bonus cannot be reduced (even with the player's consent); the trade is simply illegal.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q99

To make it work more realistically while tinkling with the trade machine, you can add Jennings' + Ndour's salary to Melo's, to make it count like Melo's real outgoing salary. That's what I do anyway

If Carmelo can't waive his trade bonus in a move to the Clippers, then it isn't worth it, Clippers can't be paying him:

2016/2017: $30,300,000 (approx, a little lower since he's already played half the season)

2017/2018: $31,984,380 (approx, same as above)

The trade kicker adds another $5 million to his salary each season. That starts to add up especially since Paul and Blake need to be re-signed and now that you're saying that two of Crawford/Redick/Rivers would have to be going out. Is it really worth it to gamble on a 32 year old below average efficiency scorer who doesn't and/or supposedly can't defend at the 3 anymore?

If we believe that he will increase his defensive effort and intensity and be an above average defender, and that offensively, having Blake and CP will allow him to be more efficient, at least in the 56-57 TS% range, maybe it's worth it, but do we believe this?

[Neddy]

yeah Melo is a NoGo. from every Knick fan's opinion Melo can't guard 3s and if so, there is no place to put Melo and Blake together. and this trend isn't just from this board either. every and any random Knick discussion board brings up about Melo's lack of defense.

[nickhx2]

probably he can he just doesn't wanna lmao

either way you can run blake at 5 and carmelo at 4 for stretches

[QRich3]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. Can't search for the link right now, but read it a couple of times over the weekend, and the cbafaq confirms it

If Carmelo can't waive his trade bonus in a move to the Clippers, then it isn't worth it, Clippers can't be paying him:

2016/2017: $30,300,000 (approx, a little lower since he's already played half the season)

2017/2018: $31,984,380 (approx, same as above)

The trade kicker adds another $5 million to his salary each season. That starts to add up especially since Paul and Blake need to be re-signed and now that you're saying that two of Crawford/Redick/Rivers would have to be going out. Is it really worth it to gamble on a 32 year old below average efficiency scorer who doesn't and/or supposedly can't defend at the 3 anymore?

If we believe that he will increase his defensive effort and intensity and be an above average defender, and that offensively, having Blake and CP will allow him to be more efficient, at least in the 56-57 TS% range, maybe it's worth it, but do we believe this?

I don't have any faith at all in a 14 year veteran suddenly understanding that he has to put effort on defense, specially now that even full effort is probably not enough for him to be a decent SF defender. But I'd still do it, only if it's A trade for Jamal/Austin/Wes and we don't give more than one pick, no later than 2021. The offensive upside is there, and we're gonna be way too deep into the luxury tax even if the trade doesn't happen, so the only difference his salary makes is in Ballmer's pockets. If they ask for Redick or more/later picks (which would be reasonable from them), I wouldn't do it.

By the way, I'm still pretty sure that Melo won't waive his no trade clause to go anywhere, not here, not Cleveland, or anywhere else, so this is all hypothetical.

[Neddy]

probably he can he just doesn't wanna lmao

either way you can run blake at 5 and carmelo at 4 for stretches

so, you want DJ to come off the bench? where does MO and Bass fit then? we give up interior AND perimeter defense with no arms Blake+Melo following around the opposing stretch 4's and 3's? who do you rotate with when they play pick and roll?

nonsense.

[Neddy]

By the way, I'm still pretty sure that Melo won't waive his no trade clause to go anywhere, not here, not Cleveland, or anywhere else, so this is all hypothetical.

yeah this is the truth. Melo is about money. always have. won't be giving up any he doesn't have to to move to elsewhere. in the end I see him pouting and complaining until his deal expires with the Knicks. he just isn't a winner. he didn't have to deplete the Knicks roster to join them when he was leaving Denver either. it's also ironic to me after what Melo did out of jealousy to Jeremy during the Linsanity days to push him out, looks like he is finailly on the recieving end of yet another... except this is still his own doing.

[nickhx2]

probably he can he just doesn't wanna lmao

either way you can run blake at 5 and carmelo at 4 for stretches

so, you want DJ to come off the bench? where does MO and Bass fit then? we give up interior AND perimeter defense with no arms Blake+Melo following around the opposing stretch 4's and 3's? who do you rotate with when they play pick and roll?

nonsense.

what exactly do you think stretches means

[nickhx2]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. Can't search for the link right now, but read it a couple of times over the weekend, and the cbafaq confirms it

If Carmelo can't waive his trade bonus in a move to the Clippers, then it isn't worth it, Clippers can't be paying him:

2016/2017: $30,300,000 (approx, a little lower since he's already played half the season)

2017/2018: $31,984,380 (approx, same as above)

The trade kicker adds another $5 million to his salary each season. That starts to add up especially since Paul and Blake need to be re-signed and now that you're saying that two of Crawford/Redick/Rivers would have to be going out. Is it really worth it to gamble on a 32 year old below average efficiency scorer who doesn't and/or supposedly can't defend at the 3 anymore?

If we believe that he will increase his defensive effort and intensity and be an above average defender, and that offensively, having Blake and CP will allow him to be more efficient, at least in the 56-57 TS% range, maybe it's worth it, but do we believe this?

I don't have any faith at all in a 14 year veteran suddenly understanding that he has to put effort on defense, specially now that even full effort is probably not enough for him to be a decent SF defender. But I'd still do it, only if it's A trade for Jamal/Austin/Wes and we don't give more than one pick, no later than 2021. The offensive upside is there, and we're gonna be way too deep into the luxury tax even if the trade doesn't happen, so the only difference his salary makes is in Ballmer's pockets. If they ask for Redick or more/later picks (which would be reasonable from them), I wouldn't do it.

By the way, I'm still pretty sure that Melo won't waive his no trade clause to go anywhere, not here, not Cleveland, or anywhere else, so this is all hypothetical.

what's the difference in taxes paid if the team trades austin and eventually re-signs jj to a 2/40 deal, vs trading jj and keeping austin? all other things being equal.

[Wammy Giveaway]

This would be the proposed starting lineup if Melo to the Clippers happens:

Version 1 (if Griffin is traded)
Paul-Redick-Moute-Anthony-Jordan
(it's also possible for Austin to replace Moute as the small forward)

Version 2 (if part of bench is traded)
Paul-Redick/Rivers-Anthony-Griffin-Jordan
(depends on the trade package if whether Redick or Rivers is included)

[Don Tommy]

I think that this situation is going to consume the Knicks so much that they finally say enough is enough and work out a buyout for Carmelo. Just by coincidence the Knicks decide they also want to clear the high payroll of Noah and find a trading partner in the Clippers, who offer up Jamal, Brice Johnson and Diamond Stone, plus the rights to our French PG. Maybe a couple of 2nds, including Clevelands. With the new roster spots open, the Clippers sign... recently bought out Carmelo Anthony! He signs for the rest of the season at the vet minimum so he can become a free agent at the end of the season.

To answer everyone's question... why yes I did just take a handful of painkillers a little bit ago! But remember, we did try something like this when Doc came over! There was going to be a DJ for KG trade and at least one pick involved, but it was going to be understood that the trade was really for KG and Doc. (Top 10 horrible trade of all time if that happened) That's why we were banned from making any moves with the Celtics for a year.

[QRich3]

If Carmelo can't waive his trade bonus in a move to the Clippers, then it isn't worth it, Clippers can't be paying him:

2016/2017: $30,300,000 (approx, a little lower since he's already played half the season)

2017/2018: $31,984,380 (approx, same as above)

The trade kicker adds another $5 million to his salary each season. That starts to add up especially since Paul and Blake need to be re-signed and now that you're saying that two of Crawford/Redick/Rivers would have to be going out. Is it really worth it to gamble on a 32 year old below average efficiency scorer who doesn't and/or supposedly can't defend at the 3 anymore?

If we believe that he will increase his defensive effort and intensity and be an above average defender, and that offensively, having Blake and CP will allow him to be more efficient, at least in the 56-57 TS% range, maybe it's worth it, but do we believe this?

I don't have any faith at all in a 14 year veteran suddenly understanding that he has to put effort on defense, specially now that even full effort is probably not enough for him to be a decent SF defender. But I'd still do it, only if it's A trade for Jamal/Austin/Wes and we don't give more than one pick, no later than 2021. The offensive upside is there, and we're gonna be way too deep into the luxury tax even if the trade doesn't happen, so the only difference his salary makes is in Ballmer's pockets. If they ask for Redick or more/later picks (which would be reasonable from them), I wouldn't do it.

By the way, I'm still pretty sure that Melo won't waive his no trade clause to go anywhere, not here, not Cleveland, or anywhere else, so this is all hypothetical.

what's the difference in taxes paid if the team trades austin and eventually re-signs jj to a 2/40 deal, vs trading jj and keeping austin? all other things being equal.

Not exactly sure, as it's a bit of a complicated calculation depending on the years they've been paying the tax (it should be like 5 at least right?) and the number of millions they're over the tax line, but it should be a lot of dollars for Ballmer to pay. If we bring everyone back, we should be pushing $150M in normal payroll, which is like $25-30M over the tax limit, so I'm guessing they're gonna pay like $5-10M for each million over the tax. So, if the difference between Austin and JJ's real salary is about $12M, Ballmer's gonna pay more than $40M a year extra if he wants to keep JJ instead of Austin. Imagine if they keep both. That's my very rough and probably wrong calculations anyway.

It's a lot of money tbh, even for him. Once you start checkin the numbers you start having doubts about bringing everyone back.