Better Toronto Player: DeMar DeRozan or Kyle Lowry

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:06 pm

Kyle Lowry has always been the better player but DeMar has brought his game to the next level this year?

colts18 · Post #2 » by **colts18** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:20 pm

I feel like this is one of those basketball IQ tests. If you think DeRozan is anywhere near Lowry's level, you don't understand how teams win in NBA.

Kabookalu · Post #3 » by **Kabookalu** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:33 pm

Lowry easily. DeRozan has the box score stats of a superstar, but not the impact of one.

Dr Spaceman · Post #4 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:23 pm

Yeah Lowry is in my current top 5, Derozan I don't think is top 20. Any combination of lineups with Lowry and without DD perform at an elite level, while the reverse is certainly not true.

ImissJordan · Post #5 » by **ImissJordan** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:32 pm

This is easily Kyle Lowry and the early returns demonstrate that.

Lowry is top 2-3 in the league in 4th quarter scoring; no matter what the score is going into the last frame, you can bet your children that Kyle is going to take over the game during the final 12 minutes. He's a much better defender (both positionally and from a team perspective) and has a wonderful feel and control of a game that don't come to most players naturally. His +/- stats (nearly tops in the league) are through the roof, he's a much more accomplished distributor and his range on his jumper is pretty ridiculous, making him a much deadlier threat than DeRozan (since the American Thanksgiving, his true shooting percentage is 72.7%). He's tough as nails, too.

IMHO, he's the best Raptor I've ever seen and I've been watching since 1995. Dude is a franchise player.

Edited to add: This isn't taking anything away from DeRozan, who has quieted a lot of people (including myself) over the years with some shocking improvements year over year. He's has excellent footwork, body control, slashing and finishing ability and has really rounded out as a rebounder and playmaker, as well. He takes (and makes) some very difficult shots and has proven to be an elite scorer in the NBA when it appeared years ago that he would peak as a 20 PPG guy on lower efficiency.

JordansBulls · Post #6 » by **JordansBulls** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:34 pm

Like comparing Nash vs Amare in 2005. One has better numbers then the other, but others would think the other player was better.

Ron Swanson · Post #7 » by **Ron Swanson** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:44 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Like comparing Nash vs Amare in 2005. One has better numbers then the other, but others would think the other player was better.

It was much more equal than DeRozan/Lowry. If Lowry is Nash in this scenario, DeRozan isn't even in the same stratosphere as prime Amare.

Colbinii · Post #8 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:06 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Like comparing Nash vs Amare in 2005. One has better numbers then the other, but others would think the other player was better.

This is a bad comparison. One, Lowry is better than Nash. Two, Derozan isn't nearly as deadly of a force as Peak Amare was.

JulesWinnfield · Post #9 » by **JulesWinnfield** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:25 pm

The answer here is Lowry, obviously.

Derozan is an incredibly tough player to gauge because I still have trouble making sense of some of the dynamics with their team as it relates to him. I don't know how anyone could argue that he's a useful player and one of the best SG's in the league, but since this Raptor thing started popping in 2014 he has had negative on/offs every season, and by ascending margins. This year it's just absurd (-10 net). Their offense when he isn't on the floor is unfathomably awesome. They are playing to 120+ Ortg.

To be fair I think this says more about how amazing Lowry is when leading lineups that exclude him, more than it speaks to Derozan "holding them back". Because they are wildly successful with him on the court, they are just absurdly good with him off it. And it's not as if Derozan is some inefficient chucker. But value wise I think it's impossible to form an argument for him vs Lowry

Colbinii · Post #10 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:35 pm

Quotatious wrote:...

I would like to hear your opinion, since you are higher on Double-D than the rest of this board it seems.

Kabookalu · Post #11 » by **Kabookalu** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:56 pm

JulesWinnfield wrote:The answer here is Lowry, obviously.

Derozan is an incredibly tough player to gauge because I still have trouble making sense of some of the dynamics with their team as it relates to him. I don't know how anyone could argue that he's a useful player and one of the best SG's in the league, but since this Raptor thing started popping in 2014 he has had negative on/offs every season, and by ascending margins. This year it's just absurd (-10 net). Their offense when he isn't on the floor is unfathomably awesome. They are playing to 120+ Ortg.

To be fair I think this says more about how amazing Lowry is when leading lineups that exclude him, more than it speaks to Derozan "holding them back". Because they are wildly successful with him on the court, they are just absurdly good with him off it. And it's not as if Derozan is some inefficient chucker. But value wise I think it's impossible to form an argument for him vs Lowry

He's a net positive for us, it's just that we play better with him off the court because Lowry + bench rule.

Another thing, DeRozan has been amazing since we took Pascal Siakam out of the starting lineup (Lowry is still significantly better though).

(7 games)
32ppg
7.7rpg
3.1apg
57TS%
Net rating 13.6

Small sample size, but we've just been a much better team without Sakiam starting. Carroll is starting to look like his former self thanks to the move.

SactoKingsFan · Post #12 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:30 pm

Don't see a good case for DeRozan. Lowry's a legit MVP candidate. DeRozan's a borderline all-star.

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GSP · Post #13 » by **GSP** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:01 pm

Lowry and not close. Hes played like a top 10 player and hes been as good or better as maybe any Pg not named Westbrook this season so far.

I dont watch the Raps much but from the games ive seen i always have the impression than not only Kyle but Patterson is also a more important player than Demar. Not that hes a better player since he cant produce what Demar does, and doesnt have anywhere near the onball talent but it seems Raps are more dangerous and versatile with him and Kyle as their best 2 man duo

Post #14 » by **Quotatious** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:09 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Quotatious wrote:...

I would like to hear your opinion, since you are higher on Double-D than the rest of this board it seems.

Yeah, I might be the highest on DeRozan of any PC board poster, but I still think that Lowry is far better and it's not even close. The thing is, DeRozan had an awesome beginning of the season and Lowry had a slow start, so I would say DeMar was their MVP for the first 10 games or so. However, Kyle has been phenomenal since late November and is a far more impactful two-way player (IMO Lowry is a clear positive defensively, DeMar is one of the worst defenders in the league among 30+ mpg players).

I still think that DeRozan is a pretty good player and his offensive skillset is generally more valuable than most people give him credit for (also his bad defense is not as big of a deal to me as apparently it is to most people, because among perimeter players, I don't value defense nearly as much as offense, at any rate I think DeMar's positives on offense clearly outweigh his negatives on defense). Lowry's edge efficiency-wise over DeRozan is huge, too.

I think it's a gap like LeBron over Kyrie or Curry over Klay, so it is a really massive gap. Doesn't mean DM DR is not a good player, it's just that Lowry is really awesome this season (better than guys like peak Payton or Kidd, I would say, and definitely a top 10 peak of all-time at PG position).

Colbinii · Post #15 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:54 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Quotatious wrote:...

I would like to hear your opinion, since you are higher on Double-D than the rest of this board it seems.

Yeah, I might be the highest on DeRozan of any PC board poster, but I still think that Lowry is far better and it's not even close. The thing is, DeRozan had an awesome beginning of the season and Lowry had a slow start, so I would say DeMar was their MVP for the first 10 games or so. However, Kyle has been phenomenal since late November and is a far more impactful two-way player (IMO Lowry is a clear positive defensively, DeMar is one of the worst defenders in the league among 30+ mpg players).

I still think that DeRozan is a pretty good player and his offensive skillset is generally more valuable than most people give him credit for (also his bad defense is not as big of a deal to me as apparently it is to most people, because among perimeter players, I don't value defense nearly as much as offense, at any rate I think DeMar's positives on offense clearly outweigh his negatives on defense). Lowry's edge efficiency-wise over DeRozan is huge, too.

I think it's a gap like LeBron over Kyrie or Curry over Klay, so it is a really massive gap. Doesn't mean DM DR is not a good player, it's just that Lowry is really awesome this season (better than guys like peak Payton or Kidd, I would say, and definitely a top 10 peak of all-time at PG position).

Couldn't agree more about his peak. I think he is actually neck and neck in the MVP race with Westbrook/Harden/CP3 :cry:

for me personally.

Can you call him DD please, instead of DM DR?

DoubleO8 · Post #16 » by **DoubleO8** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:00 pm

Lowry is better I'd say but Demar is so so fun to watch this season

JordansBulls · Post #17 » by **JordansBulls** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:46 pm

Colbinii wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Like comparing Nash vs Amare in 2005. One has better numbers then the other, but others would think the other player was better.

This is a bad comparison. One, Lowry is better than Nash. Two, Derozan isn't nearly as deadly of a force as Peak Amare was.

You think Lowry now is better than Nash was then?

Colbinii · Post #18 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:56 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Like comparing Nash vs Amare in 2005. One has better numbers then the other, but others would think the other player was better.

This is a bad comparison. One, Lowry is better than Nash. Two, Derozan isn't nearly as deadly of a force as Peak Amare was.

You think Lowry now is better than Nash was then?

Thus far, yes. I hate to make these statements so early, but what he has done thus far this season is better than anything Nash did, in my opinion.

We will see come playoff time what Lowry is like, and the question will be can he keep up his current play or will he regress to what he has done in the previous couple of years.

Dr Positivity · Post #19 » by **Dr Positivity** » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:59 pm

It's crazy that Kyle Lowry is 1st in the NBA in probably the best MVP stat we have (the "Wins" stat that's RPM with minutes/games played adjustment)

mischievous · Post #20 » by **mischievous** » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:07 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:Yeah Lowry is in my current top 5, Derozan I don't think is top 20. Any combination of lineups with Lowry and without DD perform at an elite level, while the reverse is certainly not true.

I can't see Lowry as a top 5 at all. He has no case over Harden, Westbrook, Kd or Lebron. I don't think he's better than Curry despite his stats looking a bit better. Paul has been getting hurt, so i can maybe see that.

Better Player